Was wondering why my choke solenoid is extremely hot after running a few minutes since my generator will only run when the preheat button is held then turns off when the button is released.
DVILLANDRE
One of your safety sensors is open. Is the oil level correct? Have you checked your water pump impeller? If it is shot, your genny will shut down on hi temperature.
The choke solenoid is used to start the engine and is not constructed to run the engine. In other words you are overheating the solenoid by using it to keep the engine running. Normally, holding the PreHeat for 20 seconds or so allows the engine to stabilize and continue to run on its own. If it dies right away upon release a number of things are the possible cause including the safety sensors. When was the last time the generator ran properly?
John
John
The generator ran great until 3 weeks ago. We used it all summer and no problems. I am stumped-I have tested everything and it all looks good. So far, I have replaced the overspeed board and the 3 safety switches. I also replaced the preheat switch. I have water coming out the side etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated. There seems to be a switch that was added before I bought the boat. It's a 9 pin, that I cannot find on any schematic. I actually emailed a picture to a Westerbeake dealer in Massachusetts. He didn't know what it was. When you turn on the generator it becomes 12 volts when it is supposed to be a ground.I don't know if this is my problem. This is the second year I used the generator. It has 200 hours on it.
Can you send me the picture? john@restorationmarine.com
Here are the facts as I understand them:
-It ran great until 3 weeks ago
-It will start and run if you hold the pre heat switch
-generator has 200 hours on it
You have replaced:
-overspeed board
-3 safety switches
-pre heat switch
You have an odd connector .....how do you know it is supposed to be a ground?
Let's start with something simple. Disconnect the remote harness on the generator and see if the generator will start and run. This will eliminate the remote wiring as a potential problem. Your generator is behaving as though the remote start/stop/off switch is in the off position and you are trying to start it at the generator. Mechanics make that mistake all the time and I hear: "it won't stay running when I try to start it at the generator". Well that's because the remote switch is in the off position or the switch is bad and the minute you release the preheat it sees Stop.
Most problems with Westerbeke's are really simple when you find the cause. Sometimes it is a broken wire or a bad connection. The only bad safety I have ever seen was an oil pressure sensor.
Once you try that....we can start on the more complex items.
John
Here are the facts as I understand them:
-It ran great until 3 weeks ago
-It will start and run if you hold the pre heat switch
-generator has 200 hours on it
You have replaced:
-overspeed board
-3 safety switches
-pre heat switch
You have an odd connector .....how do you know it is supposed to be a ground?
Let's start with something simple. Disconnect the remote harness on the generator and see if the generator will start and run. This will eliminate the remote wiring as a potential problem. Your generator is behaving as though the remote start/stop/off switch is in the off position and you are trying to start it at the generator. Mechanics make that mistake all the time and I hear: "it won't stay running when I try to start it at the generator". Well that's because the remote switch is in the off position or the switch is bad and the minute you release the preheat it sees Stop.
Most problems with Westerbeke's are really simple when you find the cause. Sometimes it is a broken wire or a bad connection. The only bad safety I have ever seen was an oil pressure sensor.
Once you try that....we can start on the more complex items.
John
Remote harness is connected to the SeaRay switch inside the cabin. I can't start the generator without the SeaRay switches. I jumped out the oil pressure switch and installed an oil pressure gauge in that outlet and it did the same thing. One day last week it ran for 10 minutes by itself and then turned off 2x. I really thought it was the preheat switch itself so I bought another one put it in and back to square one.
I know it can be frustrating but it is the lack of instrumentation that makes them tough to sort out. The photo you sent looks like the Sea Ray oil pressure switch which goes to the helm on the System Monitor Panel or a gauge. Westerbeke ships standard with two oil switches (one normally open and the other normally closed) as safetys. Sea Ray adds one as well for monitoring. What's interesting is that it looks like it has been recently replaced. It you follow the wire, it should go into a Sea Ray harness.
I thought you mentioned a 9 pin connector?
In regards to the remote harness, almost all the newer models come with a set of start switches installed on the generator and a plug in for the remote harness. Older models have the remote harness wired into the generator which makes sorting out wiring problems more of a challenge.
Did you get a reading off the oil pressure gauge?
Since it works sometimes, I would start with eliminating the fuel system as a potential problem. It is the most common area for Westerbeke generators to have problems and so I usually start there. Generators are extremely sensitive to gas quality and fuel pressure. The system works by drawing from a pickup in one of the fuel tanks through a water separator, through a fuel filter, into the fuel pump and pressurized out to another water separator (some models) and into the carb. The fuel pump and a fuel shutoff solenoid at the base of the carb are part of the electric circuit.
The single most common failure point is bad gas from the unit not being run often enough. Stale gas forms in the line from the tank and must be cleared so that the generator can run properly. Since it runs intermittently, I would start by installing a fuel pressure gauge on the line between the pump and the carb. It needs to be a low pressure gauge since the pump only generates 3-5psi. The fuel pump will activate when you depress the pre-heat switch and should read 3-5 psi on the gauge and should not waiver. The fuel pump runs continuously as: 1) the pre heat switch is held 2) or the engine is running.
If we have fuel pressure and good gas.....we can move on to electrics.
John
I thought you mentioned a 9 pin connector?
In regards to the remote harness, almost all the newer models come with a set of start switches installed on the generator and a plug in for the remote harness. Older models have the remote harness wired into the generator which makes sorting out wiring problems more of a challenge.
Did you get a reading off the oil pressure gauge?
Since it works sometimes, I would start with eliminating the fuel system as a potential problem. It is the most common area for Westerbeke generators to have problems and so I usually start there. Generators are extremely sensitive to gas quality and fuel pressure. The system works by drawing from a pickup in one of the fuel tanks through a water separator, through a fuel filter, into the fuel pump and pressurized out to another water separator (some models) and into the carb. The fuel pump and a fuel shutoff solenoid at the base of the carb are part of the electric circuit.
The single most common failure point is bad gas from the unit not being run often enough. Stale gas forms in the line from the tank and must be cleared so that the generator can run properly. Since it runs intermittently, I would start by installing a fuel pressure gauge on the line between the pump and the carb. It needs to be a low pressure gauge since the pump only generates 3-5psi. The fuel pump will activate when you depress the pre-heat switch and should read 3-5 psi on the gauge and should not waiver. The fuel pump runs continuously as: 1) the pre heat switch is held 2) or the engine is running.
If we have fuel pressure and good gas.....we can move on to electrics.
John
Just to clarify: did you mean the coolant temperature switch?
Also, the picture you sent was an oil pressure switch with a single wire going to it.....did I miss something? The Sea Ray switch won't cause the issue you are experiencing. My guess is: We are chasing either a fuel or wiring issue. The fuel is easy to sort out which is why I suggest we start there and eliminate that sub system.
The problem with working on these generators is that operating problems can be caused be different sub systems. In a lot of cases what you think is a safety issue turns out to be a failing fuel pump or a broken wire. I had one generator brand new from Westerbeke that took me a two days to find a single bad crimped connector that made enough contact so that the unit would run then stop for no reason. The only way I found it was by getting it to run and pulling on parts of the harness. Westerbeke was equally stumped and together we threw a lot of parts at it. It usually is something simple.
If I ever had any time.....I would build a test interface that would plug into these things and tell us what is going on. I'm sure Westerbeke could sell it for big bucks. The only challenge is that they would have to replace their current sensors with smart ones so that you could read fuel pressure, oil pressure, engine speed, electrical output, exhaust manifold, raw water pressure, individual safetys etc. How cool would that be?
-John
Also, the picture you sent was an oil pressure switch with a single wire going to it.....did I miss something? The Sea Ray switch won't cause the issue you are experiencing. My guess is: We are chasing either a fuel or wiring issue. The fuel is easy to sort out which is why I suggest we start there and eliminate that sub system.
The problem with working on these generators is that operating problems can be caused be different sub systems. In a lot of cases what you think is a safety issue turns out to be a failing fuel pump or a broken wire. I had one generator brand new from Westerbeke that took me a two days to find a single bad crimped connector that made enough contact so that the unit would run then stop for no reason. The only way I found it was by getting it to run and pulling on parts of the harness. Westerbeke was equally stumped and together we threw a lot of parts at it. It usually is something simple.
If I ever had any time.....I would build a test interface that would plug into these things and tell us what is going on. I'm sure Westerbeke could sell it for big bucks. The only challenge is that they would have to replace their current sensors with smart ones so that you could read fuel pressure, oil pressure, engine speed, electrical output, exhaust manifold, raw water pressure, individual safetys etc. How cool would that be?
-John
I can but I want to confirm that the Westerbeke you have is a 7.2 BCGTC. Diagnostics differ from model to model.
I also want to confirm one last time that this is not a fuel related issue. I use an old school method to separate fuel related issues from electrical. It is unnerving to some but it is the fastest way to rule out a fuel issue that looks like an electrical issue. If you try to start it and it does not start, squirt some starting fluid or gas into the carb. If it fires up, we know we have a fuel delivery problem somewhere in the system. Be careful and always have a fire extinguisher handy.
The other thought is how full are your fuel tanks? The generator pickup does not go to the bottom of the tank. If the tank that it draws on is 1/4 full that will also cause an intermittent problem. Keep in mind that your fuel pressure looked ok but that was without the generator running. That basically told us the pump was working. The starting fluid test will prove it one way or another.
If it doesn't fire up, then we will start testing to see if the spark plugs are working properly.
John
I also want to confirm one last time that this is not a fuel related issue. I use an old school method to separate fuel related issues from electrical. It is unnerving to some but it is the fastest way to rule out a fuel issue that looks like an electrical issue. If you try to start it and it does not start, squirt some starting fluid or gas into the carb. If it fires up, we know we have a fuel delivery problem somewhere in the system. Be careful and always have a fire extinguisher handy.
The other thought is how full are your fuel tanks? The generator pickup does not go to the bottom of the tank. If the tank that it draws on is 1/4 full that will also cause an intermittent problem. Keep in mind that your fuel pressure looked ok but that was without the generator running. That basically told us the pump was working. The starting fluid test will prove it one way or another.
If it doesn't fire up, then we will start testing to see if the spark plugs are working properly.
John
I'm guessing that you have a 7.2 BCGTC, which would be era appropriate.
Westerbeke has the owner's manual on line here.
The entire service manual available on-line here.
On page 5 of the owners manual, you'll see the 3 shutdown switches that must be checked. Component testing is on page 50 of the service manual. The wiring diagram is on page 52 of the service manual.
The oil temperature switch does not cause an engine shutdown. The oil temperature switch energizes the choke solenoid until the oil temperature warms up a bit. Everyone gets the choke operating principles and issues wrong on this series. The choke closes by pressing preheat OR by the oil temperature switch until the running engine's oil warms up.
The easiest way to test the shutdown sensors is to short the terminals of each one, then start the engine. If thy engine doesn't continue to run, it's not the sensors, so either you installed the jumpers incorrectly, or relay K2 failed. I've assumed the overspeed board is okay since it's been replaced. If the engine runs, remove the jumpers one-by-one. When the engine shuts down, there's your bad sensor.
Should take no more than 15 minutes to troubleshoot the sensors and K2 relay. I'm guess K2 is bad.
Westerbeke has the owner's manual on line here.
The entire service manual available on-line here.
On page 5 of the owners manual, you'll see the 3 shutdown switches that must be checked. Component testing is on page 50 of the service manual. The wiring diagram is on page 52 of the service manual.
The oil temperature switch does not cause an engine shutdown. The oil temperature switch energizes the choke solenoid until the oil temperature warms up a bit. Everyone gets the choke operating principles and issues wrong on this series. The choke closes by pressing preheat OR by the oil temperature switch until the running engine's oil warms up.
The easiest way to test the shutdown sensors is to short the terminals of each one, then start the engine. If thy engine doesn't continue to run, it's not the sensors, so either you installed the jumpers incorrectly, or relay K2 failed. I've assumed the overspeed board is okay since it's been replaced. If the engine runs, remove the jumpers one-by-one. When the engine shuts down, there's your bad sensor.
Should take no more than 15 minutes to troubleshoot the sensors and K2 relay. I'm guess K2 is bad.
I'd not worry about a fuel or carb issue other than the choke function I described above. If the engine runs with preheat on, which bypasses the shutdowns, then you have fuel. You need to diagnose the electrics in the shutdown system. It's pretty simple. You might also want to add to your tests a jumper between #4 and #5 on the terminal block to the remote panel. If it runs with the jumper, you have a bad remote panel RUN switch or a problem in the wiring loom. But before you do more replacing, test.
Seriously. These checks won't even take a half hour and you really don't need even a DVM to do the minimal ones I've outlined here and yesterday.
Seriously. These checks won't even take a half hour and you really don't need even a DVM to do the minimal ones I've outlined here and yesterday.
I think that unit has a mechanical governor which needs to have the proper amount of oil in order to run properly.
Low oil will lead to a shutdown of the generator. Easy to check and remedy if the oil is low. If it's been run for a long period of time without oil the governor might need to be rebuilt as the shaft seal has probably worn a groove in the shaft and caused the oil to leak out.
Low oil will lead to a shutdown of the generator. Easy to check and remedy if the oil is low. If it's been run for a long period of time without oil the governor might need to be rebuilt as the shaft seal has probably worn a groove in the shaft and caused the oil to leak out.
So, I jumped out the water temperature switch-no change
oil pressure switch-no change
exhaust switch-no change
I jumped them out one by one then jumped them out all together still no change. You suggested jumping out 4 & 5 on the remote terminal inside the control panel on the generator, there is already a factory jumper in place. This has been in there since I bought the boat 2 seasons ago. I removed the jumper the generator still ran (only with preheat button held) but I had no volts to my safety switches. I then pulled off each wire on my overspeed board one by one T1-T6 the engine still ran without any shutdowns (only with preheat button held). Why would this happen? The next thing I noticed was that I went to stop generator with stop/start switch at the side of the control panel and the engine continued to run (only with preheat button held). You suggested that K2 might be bad but both of the K's had 85 omhs. The strange thing when I pulled out a fuse to check it and forgot to put it back in went inside the cabin to start it the engine still ran. It puzzled me so I checked the 30 amp and it ran (only with the preheat button held) with the fuse out. How would I check my overspeed board (although it is brand new). What wire controls all of the safety switches? Green one? I disconnected the start/stop switch wires and also the momentarily switch and again the generator ran with the preheat button held. I am stumped.
oil pressure switch-no change
exhaust switch-no change
I jumped them out one by one then jumped them out all together still no change. You suggested jumping out 4 & 5 on the remote terminal inside the control panel on the generator, there is already a factory jumper in place. This has been in there since I bought the boat 2 seasons ago. I removed the jumper the generator still ran (only with preheat button held) but I had no volts to my safety switches. I then pulled off each wire on my overspeed board one by one T1-T6 the engine still ran without any shutdowns (only with preheat button held). Why would this happen? The next thing I noticed was that I went to stop generator with stop/start switch at the side of the control panel and the engine continued to run (only with preheat button held). You suggested that K2 might be bad but both of the K's had 85 omhs. The strange thing when I pulled out a fuse to check it and forgot to put it back in went inside the cabin to start it the engine still ran. It puzzled me so I checked the 30 amp and it ran (only with the preheat button held) with the fuse out. How would I check my overspeed board (although it is brand new). What wire controls all of the safety switches? Green one? I disconnected the start/stop switch wires and also the momentarily switch and again the generator ran with the preheat button held. I am stumped.
You said you replaced the overspeed board. Where did you get it?
If you look at your schematic, you can see the water temp and exhaust temp are normally closed switches, the oil pressure switch is normally open when the engine is not cranking/running. The preheat switch bypasses the safetys electrical circuit but once released looks for a complete closed switch circuit with 12 volts. If 12 volts is not present, the coil and fuel pump are de-energized. With cranking/normal oil pressure ....all the safetys are in the closed position and 12 volts runs through them. So, when you test the temp and exhaust temp switches with an ohm meter with the engine off they should read closed so jumping them is unlikely to mean something unless they were stuck open. The oil pressure switch is more interesting because it is normally open on your generator. I believe you said you replaced it. Westerbeke makes two that look identical: one normally open and one normally closed.
An ohmeter should read the oil pressure switch open with the engine off. If by some strange chance, you put a closed one in as a replacement....that would explain the entire problem.
I will try to upload the schematic so that we can trace it together.
-John
If you look at your schematic, you can see the water temp and exhaust temp are normally closed switches, the oil pressure switch is normally open when the engine is not cranking/running. The preheat switch bypasses the safetys electrical circuit but once released looks for a complete closed switch circuit with 12 volts. If 12 volts is not present, the coil and fuel pump are de-energized. With cranking/normal oil pressure ....all the safetys are in the closed position and 12 volts runs through them. So, when you test the temp and exhaust temp switches with an ohm meter with the engine off they should read closed so jumping them is unlikely to mean something unless they were stuck open. The oil pressure switch is more interesting because it is normally open on your generator. I believe you said you replaced it. Westerbeke makes two that look identical: one normally open and one normally closed.
An ohmeter should read the oil pressure switch open with the engine off. If by some strange chance, you put a closed one in as a replacement....that would explain the entire problem.
I will try to upload the schematic so that we can trace it together.
-John
After troubleshooting and spending over 60 hours trying to figure out what was wrong with my generator, replacing old parts with new parts etc. I almost threw in the towel. Today was going to be the last day before I called in a professional. I filled up the governor because the oil looked a little low-having put in new oil about 3 weeks ago. Guess when I put in the new oil I didn't put in enough. It started right up and ran for an hour. Unbelievable!
Well you earned your Westerbeke merit badge on this one. Congrats on solving the problem. So, apparently it was the engine speed (overspeed) that was causing it to shut down when you released the pre-heat switch. Makes sense.
John
John
Wow!!! The one time I didn't chime in and say to check the oil in the Gov and that's what was wrong Im happy you found the problem
There is one other thing to keep an eye on with our older units. Find and keep as a spare the gov spring. They get weak with age and use, when they get weak it will act just the same as low oil. Also if this makes you feel any better about the money and parts. When I bought my 88 my dealer spent 24 man hours, many new parts, rebuilt the carb, changed sensors, and had a certified Wester guy work on it for two days. I finally stopped my dealer due to the costs HE was paying out for a 9800.00 sale. ALL of that for 2 ounces of gov oil.
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