I am/was wondering, just how old would you go back to buy a used boat? I mean with respect to quality of build. Cored hulls, decks, transoms? Fiberglass quality, vinylester resins? I think I've read somewhere F. Webster said 1995. Would that be a good place to start? This is just a broad question, and I'm asking for opinions. I am doing research for a good starting point in an older larger boat in the 30 to 40 foot range. I don't mean to start a war on old versus new. I tend to like the older model lines anyways. Thanks in advance for your responces. Wes I wasn't sure where to put this, so move it where you think it should go. Mike
islandhopper00
How old is to old?
My wife and I are actually discussing that right now. Not being an expert on boats I'm letting the boat size and budget determine the age for starters. I'll then look for advice on what's good or bad in particular models.
No, Frank didn't say that........
What he said was that Sea Ray has developed their manufacturing and design skills over the years and that there are production years in which certain improvements were incorporated. If those improvements are important to a buyer then he should select boats produced later then the model change year incorporating the features he wants in a boat.
To give you an example, one of Sea Ray's best ever and most popular boats was the 390EC. The plywood seat bases were a problem for every owner, sooner or later. Sea Ray changed to a molded fiberglass seat base in 1989, so I'd shop for the best 1989-1991 390.
Esthetics, profile, style are probably as important to most buyers as anything else.....You want a forward swept arch, don't waste time with older boats. You don't like teak....look at post 1992 boats..etc, etc.
Condition is also a consideration. The chances of finding an old boat in pristine condition are slim. the newer the boat is, the more likely you are to find a cream puff.
What he said was that Sea Ray has developed their manufacturing and design skills over the years and that there are production years in which certain improvements were incorporated. If those improvements are important to a buyer then he should select boats produced later then the model change year incorporating the features he wants in a boat.
To give you an example, one of Sea Ray's best ever and most popular boats was the 390EC. The plywood seat bases were a problem for every owner, sooner or later. Sea Ray changed to a molded fiberglass seat base in 1989, so I'd shop for the best 1989-1991 390.
Esthetics, profile, style are probably as important to most buyers as anything else.....You want a forward swept arch, don't waste time with older boats. You don't like teak....look at post 1992 boats..etc, etc.
Condition is also a consideration. The chances of finding an old boat in pristine condition are slim. the newer the boat is, the more likely you are to find a cream puff.
I just went thru this myself in the last couple of months. I had been looking to move up from our 240 SD (thinking along the 30-33' range). I was thinking along the '95 -98 year models and did a lot of searching. As you can see I wound up with a 94 370EC. I got a few more feet and I don't think any more extra expense or headaches. As everyone says on any purchase... get a good survey done..
I would have loved to have had a year or so newer model 370 with a little wider beam , but looking at location (only 80 miles from me.. saving a good bit of $$ on transport),the timeless (at least to me) look of the 370, more boat than I expected, and a price around $50K I was willing to take perhaps a bit of a chance.
I think what you need to do is make sure you know exactly what you want (of course there will be some compromises) and then start looking at those boats and perhaps you can get some specific models to take a harder look at their histories.
With just a little bit of patience I think you can find just about any boat to meet the final qualifications you come up with. I love seeing the posters on here with the 'older' boats and I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback.
I would have loved to have had a year or so newer model 370 with a little wider beam , but looking at location (only 80 miles from me.. saving a good bit of $$ on transport),the timeless (at least to me) look of the 370, more boat than I expected, and a price around $50K I was willing to take perhaps a bit of a chance.
I think what you need to do is make sure you know exactly what you want (of course there will be some compromises) and then start looking at those boats and perhaps you can get some specific models to take a harder look at their histories.
With just a little bit of patience I think you can find just about any boat to meet the final qualifications you come up with. I love seeing the posters on here with the 'older' boats and I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback.
Sorry Frank, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
I am aware older boats will be in disrepair, just wondering what would be the best year??? to rebuild? With respect to difficulty of repair, of the hull that is. Seat bases and interiors can be updated. I guess I'm thinking of hull repair, engine technology.
I am aware older boats will be in disrepair, just wondering what would be the best year??? to rebuild? With respect to difficulty of repair, of the hull that is. Seat bases and interiors can be updated. I guess I'm thinking of hull repair, engine technology.
To be honest with you ANY year if the boat was maintained well. I just sold a 1977 36 Egg Harbor that surveyed out almost perfect with very small cosmetic issues being the only problem.
Figure out what kind of boat you like, go look at them and I am 100% sure that there is at least one out there that meets or exceeds your standards condition wise. You may not get it for the price of the turd thats been sitting out of the water for 5 years rotting away but you get what you pay for most of the time in older boats!
Also, keep in mind that it is a boat. It was man made and EVERYTHING can be fixed.
Figure out what kind of boat you like, go look at them and I am 100% sure that there is at least one out there that meets or exceeds your standards condition wise. You may not get it for the price of the turd thats been sitting out of the water for 5 years rotting away but you get what you pay for most of the time in older boats!
Also, keep in mind that it is a boat. It was man made and EVERYTHING can be fixed.
L&L your 94 370EC looks great. Late 80's and 90's vintage are the target years. I really like the 300DB look. I'm wanting to stay away from cored hulls, not exactly sure why, just a quirk for me.
Kinda looking for the deal breakers. Things that make repairs outta the realm of DIY. Mike
Kinda looking for the deal breakers. Things that make repairs outta the realm of DIY. Mike
Thanks... They were asking $64 (just under 800 hours). I will try to get some pics this weekend. I don't really have any experience on other boats engine rooms, but basically the whole cockpit area has panels that can be lifted up for access. Even the helm seats can be unpinned easily and slid to back, etc.
Great advice above! I'd start by determining WHAT you want to spend and then balance the age with the size to determine what fits your budget. Do you want newer with fewer problems and more amenities or is size more important than amenities and reliability? After the purchase, maintenance for twin engines won't be that different for a couple of 350's vs. 454's. Diesels are different and in the larger boats preferred if you can find them. I'd try to get diesels if I could. The cost to moore it is something to consider, but I have no idea what the difference would be between a 34 and a 38. Check with your marina, but that may be a small difference in the overall cost of boating. Make sure you save some money for any new items that might be required or unexpected repairs. That could be a new or remodeled canvas or something like risers or generator work. You may decide to add some electronics or something else to make it the perfect boat.
We bought our 89 last year and had an 87 for the prior 7 years. The survey on the 89 revealed two horrendous items. The first was some idiot took a shortcut and used twist on wire connectors that I've since removed and crimped. The second item was a 1/4 inch tear in the upholstery near the dinnette. The gentlemen that did the survey couldn't believe it was in such good condition. His statement was that you usually find them in this condition with low hours. This boat had actually been on the water and used. The only other issue was that the previous owner had accidentally pressure washed the trim stripe off the foredeck. Oops! It still made the cover of the Club Sea Ray Calendar in 2008 AND 2009! Don't ask me how, but it did! The carpet has a little traffic pattern, but it still looks good. The engines are still under 700 hours.
There are many boats in a variety of configurations across many years that you will get to choose from. Our boat is probably worth 1/3 of what we paid a year ago. I wish prices would have tumbled last year. Oh well, we still love our 300 DA and have no plans to trade it in the near future! We'll hang on to it until the kids have gone, so that could be another 8 years or so! Glad we bought enough boat last year!
We bought our 89 last year and had an 87 for the prior 7 years. The survey on the 89 revealed two horrendous items. The first was some idiot took a shortcut and used twist on wire connectors that I've since removed and crimped. The second item was a 1/4 inch tear in the upholstery near the dinnette. The gentlemen that did the survey couldn't believe it was in such good condition. His statement was that you usually find them in this condition with low hours. This boat had actually been on the water and used. The only other issue was that the previous owner had accidentally pressure washed the trim stripe off the foredeck. Oops! It still made the cover of the Club Sea Ray Calendar in 2008 AND 2009! Don't ask me how, but it did! The carpet has a little traffic pattern, but it still looks good. The engines are still under 700 hours.
There are many boats in a variety of configurations across many years that you will get to choose from. Our boat is probably worth 1/3 of what we paid a year ago. I wish prices would have tumbled last year. Oh well, we still love our 300 DA and have no plans to trade it in the near future! We'll hang on to it until the kids have gone, so that could be another 8 years or so! Glad we bought enough boat last year!
I would like to add a couple of cents worth to this discussion as well. I have owned a number of boats over the years and had a small 24' Sea Ray cuddy ('87) that we took regularly off shore in Long Beach, CA and to Catalina.
After a move away from the water the boat sat for a year and we sold it. A short time later another move put us back near the water and we decided we wanted back into boating and bought a '91 26' 4Winns. After one night on board my wife and I decided we wanted something bigger. But with retirement in the not too distant future we weren't in a position to spend $75-100k on a boat.
In March of '06, I lucked out and found an '89 340 Sundancer. There was only 440 hours on the engines. The boat was all original except for all new canvas. Being all orignal meant to me that no one had screwd it up. '89 was the last year for this hull style and we love it. It is 11' 11" wide and has a great cabin layout. Two and half years ago we paid $52k. High by today's prices but a steal then. The survey came up with only props that had dinged something and needed repair.
My whole point is what others have said. Determine your budget, decide what you want to do with the boat, how much maintenance you want and keep an open mind. We have looked at some boats built in the '90's that do not have the space and features we have. But I was lucky. I found a boat that was very sound mechanally and only needed the late '80's disco colors changed along with some other upgrades. And we do most of the work ourselves. The older boats are simpler and more straight forward.
I could go on but I think you probaly get the point....and I'm sure someone will disagree with me. They always do.
Shawn
After a move away from the water the boat sat for a year and we sold it. A short time later another move put us back near the water and we decided we wanted back into boating and bought a '91 26' 4Winns. After one night on board my wife and I decided we wanted something bigger. But with retirement in the not too distant future we weren't in a position to spend $75-100k on a boat.
In March of '06, I lucked out and found an '89 340 Sundancer. There was only 440 hours on the engines. The boat was all original except for all new canvas. Being all orignal meant to me that no one had screwd it up. '89 was the last year for this hull style and we love it. It is 11' 11" wide and has a great cabin layout. Two and half years ago we paid $52k. High by today's prices but a steal then. The survey came up with only props that had dinged something and needed repair.
My whole point is what others have said. Determine your budget, decide what you want to do with the boat, how much maintenance you want and keep an open mind. We have looked at some boats built in the '90's that do not have the space and features we have. But I was lucky. I found a boat that was very sound mechanally and only needed the late '80's disco colors changed along with some other upgrades. And we do most of the work ourselves. The older boats are simpler and more straight forward.
I could go on but I think you probaly get the point....and I'm sure someone will disagree with me. They always do.
Shawn
NEVER to old :smt009 :smt009 if the boat is well maintained no matter how ols is to old:huh: I purchased a 83 SR needs a little work picked her up for under $1,000.00 with just a liitle TLC she bill be worth around 14k atfer I get done with it.:thumbsup:
All great points everyone and I appreciate the help.
Maybe I shouldn't have said to old. I should have said "balance" between technology and maintenance. I realize it's all about opinion, and what is in the eye of the beholder. I tend to over maintain everything I own, OCD I guess. Generally I change out most wood and install starboard. I know, I know...I like low maintenance.
I mostly want to find the most trouble free "hull" as it sits in the water, as this next boat will probably be slipped. Blisters and moisture intrusion scares me.
I have a boat surveyer "friend" and he is great, but when he spends my money, he seems always to shoot for the best. I think there is a middle ground somewhere inbetween price and quality.
Thank you for your responces, I learning good stuff. Mike
Maybe I shouldn't have said to old. I should have said "balance" between technology and maintenance. I realize it's all about opinion, and what is in the eye of the beholder. I tend to over maintain everything I own, OCD I guess. Generally I change out most wood and install starboard. I know, I know...I like low maintenance.
I mostly want to find the most trouble free "hull" as it sits in the water, as this next boat will probably be slipped. Blisters and moisture intrusion scares me.
I have a boat surveyer "friend" and he is great, but when he spends my money, he seems always to shoot for the best. I think there is a middle ground somewhere inbetween price and quality.
Thank you for your responces, I learning good stuff. Mike
Instead of age, perhaps a better view of this is to concentrate on the boat models Sea Ray "got right" ......early 90's 300WE, >1989 300EC/DA, the 390EC I mentioned earlier, early 90's 310/330DA, 1995-1999 450DA, mid 90's 500DA, mid 90's50/55DB, late 90's 330DA, etc..........and avoid the dogs of the line. No, I'm not going to list the ones I think are dogs because we have several represented on CSR who's owners haven't figured it out yet, and it isn't my job to burst their bubble. If you have kept up with CSR for a while you know that I don't pull punches when someone says "I'm about to buy an "X", so perhaps you can search for those models.
No matter what you pick, the best value is the boat that is in the best condition; correspondingly, a "project" is seldom a good value because they always costs more than you think to bring them back and catch up the maintenance.
No matter what you pick, the best value is the boat that is in the best condition; correspondingly, a "project" is seldom a good value because they always costs more than you think to bring them back and catch up the maintenance.
Mike
I think it's been lightly touched on here in some postings, but the big thing for me if I were going to purchase an older Sea Ray would be to understand all of the maintenance issues ahead of time because after all that affects your budget too. For instance, if you get a get a v-drive boat, some times the raw water pumps are difficult to service because of their location. With twins, that may a fairly big maintenance item dollar wise if you have to pay someone to do the job. And personally myself, I know little to nothing about the gear boxes for v-drives in terms of how to maintain them, what can break on them, and how long they last before needing replacing. If you zero in on a particular model, I would try and get as many ongoing maintenance questions as possible answered ahead of time because that afer all is where your "unexpected" expense may come up.
Dave
I think it's been lightly touched on here in some postings, but the big thing for me if I were going to purchase an older Sea Ray would be to understand all of the maintenance issues ahead of time because after all that affects your budget too. For instance, if you get a get a v-drive boat, some times the raw water pumps are difficult to service because of their location. With twins, that may a fairly big maintenance item dollar wise if you have to pay someone to do the job. And personally myself, I know little to nothing about the gear boxes for v-drives in terms of how to maintain them, what can break on them, and how long they last before needing replacing. If you zero in on a particular model, I would try and get as many ongoing maintenance questions as possible answered ahead of time because that afer all is where your "unexpected" expense may come up.
Dave
I have owned my '83 since '95. I have considered a newer model, maybe a DA. Every time I look at a newer model I come back to "what does this boat have that mine doesn't?" Newer systems, but similar. Newer engines but they still have to be maintained. Faster but I am not in a hurry anyway. My boat could have MPI, newer electronics, updated systems etc. or I could keep using what I have. It still works. A friend of mine had an '84 360AC (same boat) and he called Sea Ray to get some background info on his model. He happened to talk to a guy that actually worked the line when our boats were built. He was told that these boats were built before Sea Ray new how little fiberglass it takes to build a boat. In short, that hull is solid. Having drilled the hull for a thru hull fitting I can tell you it's thick and solid, no core no where. My interior is all wood. Don't like the cabinets? Take them out and rebuild them! Can't do that with a fiberglass liner.
I said all that to say this. Old boats have alot of advantages. Maintenance is required on any boat. Upgrades are always going to be needed or wanted.
Think about what you want the boat to be. Find one that has a price that reflects what you want to do with the boat. Don't want to work on the boat, buy new or newer. Don't want to do upgrades, find one set up like you want it. If you look at the hull of a 25 year old boat that has lived in the water all it's life and there are no blisters or soft spots, guess what, their probably won't be any.
I said all that to say this. Old boats have alot of advantages. Maintenance is required on any boat. Upgrades are always going to be needed or wanted.
Think about what you want the boat to be. Find one that has a price that reflects what you want to do with the boat. Don't want to work on the boat, buy new or newer. Don't want to do upgrades, find one set up like you want it. If you look at the hull of a 25 year old boat that has lived in the water all it's life and there are no blisters or soft spots, guess what, their probably won't be any.
When my wife and I started to look for a bigger boat we limited ourselves to 2002 or newer. Then Frank W. talked some sense into me and we looked at a 370DA with diesels that our dealer had. That turned out to be the best thing that we could have done. We got a lot more boat for no more money, and went from gas to diesels! Owning an older boat (10 years) has been great! I do all my maintenance myself and find it very easy. There are always issues with boats, but I have not had any more problems with my 10 year old boat vs. my brand new boat.
I have always been partial to the 36 "T" Top. I just like the style. A friend had one back in the day. The panels in the T top were hard; like an older vette. It's a roomy boat but not a pocket rocket by any means. I do believe it would have a lot of zip with a set of supercharged 6.2's or 7.4's.
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My $0.02
My $0.02
Now we're talking. Thanks Frank for the list, I'll look carefully. Dave once again you hit the nail on the head and great feedback from everyone else. It's kinda the feedback I was looking for from older boat owners. The newer swept lines doesn't really interest me. (yes I own a 06 da). I'm approaching this like a truck I recently rebuilt. 96' F-150. I had most everything gone thru, rebuilt, modified and customized to the way I wanted it. I now have a truck that is basically like new and only $15,000.00 in it. It was the only way I could get what I wanted.
Now the boat I want to customize and refinish just needs good bones to start. Like Dave said, I want a boat that I can work on, because I want a boat that does way to many different things. Fish well, cruise comfortable, and last a good long time. Some wish list huh? Well, hopefully with the right homework, I'll apply the knowledge and make a good decision. Mike
Now the boat I want to customize and refinish just needs good bones to start. Like Dave said, I want a boat that I can work on, because I want a boat that does way to many different things. Fish well, cruise comfortable, and last a good long time. Some wish list huh? Well, hopefully with the right homework, I'll apply the knowledge and make a good decision. Mike
So Frank....my boat's a dog and I haven't figured it out yet, huh?
I guess I'll change the name to Fido.
I guess I'll change the name to Fido.
http://www.yachtauctions.com/inventory.asp
First off, as a lot of the folks have metioned.... find what you like and then dial it in from there. I went from my 17' Fiberform Waikiki to a 1989 300 Weekender with twin 454's and I didn't have a clue what I was getting into
(still don't) and then thought I wanted a 40' Sundancer mid 90's....
Well, I started looking at 1994 and up and discovered I really wanted a 450 1998 or newer.... And this was do to a lot of research, options, layouts etc., now granted the '98 450 was a little more then my original budgeted amount, but I've got a boat I am thrilled with and enjoying every second with it..... Oh, I almost forgot click on the link and checkout some of the boats and prices.... Good Luck, Mark
First off, as a lot of the folks have metioned.... find what you like and then dial it in from there. I went from my 17' Fiberform Waikiki to a 1989 300 Weekender with twin 454's and I didn't have a clue what I was getting into
(still don't) and then thought I wanted a 40' Sundancer mid 90's....
Well, I started looking at 1994 and up and discovered I really wanted a 450 1998 or newer.... And this was do to a lot of research, options, layouts etc., now granted the '98 450 was a little more then my original budgeted amount, but I've got a boat I am thrilled with and enjoying every second with it..... Oh, I almost forgot click on the link and checkout some of the boats and prices.... Good Luck, Mark
I am really liking the '93 vintage 330DA's and they are plentiful down here in the ~50K range. They look like a grown-up version of my boat with much smoother lines but without the hideous 80's interior materials. I love the shallow draft too!
I was looking at that newer model as well, and the design and materials still looks new today. I just never really liked the porthole windows as much or the stark monochromatic whiteness of everything both in the cabin and in the cockpit. I guess the early 90's version is the best blend of old vs. new for me.
My last old boat was a 1993 37 SR Express. We sold it when it was 11 years old and I was worried about the hull developing rot in the stringers. It did have two limber holes that were not properly glassed that I took care of after a previous SR of mine gave its new owner problems several years after he bought it from me. I did not want to risk that happening to me so I sold the 93 before any problems developed. There are not too many truly old boats that I would buy because so many of the problems are in areas of the hull that are tough to assess. The only truly old boat that I would consider would be a well built boat from a builder known for great hulls. Some brands such as Bertram and Hatteras fall into that category. While these projects are not cheap, the finished product results in added value. The boats are frequently marketable at prices approaching the costs of renovation. This is not remotely possible with high volume production boats.
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