I have FLIR. Was on the boat when it was purchased.

Works as described. Granted mine is a few years old, so I am sure the technology has improved.

Actually I don't use it very often. I have had it on at night on occasion. I am most always at significantly reduced speeds at night which is where FLIR is most applicable.

Challenge I have with it is you have to really be watching the screen for it to be valuable. Between normal visual awareness of surroundings, Radar, and Chart Plotter - I found it distracting.

I could see some definite applications - MOB. Or if I was cruising up a narrow channel, watching for obstacles.

Probably need to spend some more time making use of an asset I already have - but at this stage not sure I would purchase it if it was not already on the boat. If I had incremental dollars I wanted to spend - would probably look towards making the radar all it can be - or some of the newer sonar options.

Sitting tied up in a marina at night, the pan and swivel option is very entertaining at times monitoring the surroundings. Probably have must more time of use panning the camera around the docks.

Mark

 

It sure looks like a cool product on paper, but I always wondered how useful it would be for the reasons you noted.

Running at night, I split my time 50/50 looking out the window, and radar.

if the Flir was not on a completely separate display, I can see how it could become distracting.

Information overload?

Actually I don't use it very often. I have had it on at night on occasion. I am most always at significantly reduced speeds at night which is where FLIR is most applicable.

Challenge I have with it is you have to really be watching the screen for it to be valuable. Between normal visual awareness of surroundings, Radar, and Chart Plotter - I found it distracting.

I could see some definite applications - MOB. Or if I was cruising up a narrow channel, watching for obstacles.

Mark

 

I just purchased a FLIR MD-625 with joystick for $4k and it came with a $500 mail in rebate, the installation is around $1k. It's scheduled to be installed this month or next month. Don't have any experience with it yet but where I boat along with the tinted glass windshield I can't see anything at night.

 

Same here, I have a custom mount being built due to ship next week. Then mine will be installed. I have used FLIR cameras quite a bit and taken several of their training classes. Should be a very useful tool at night and in the event of a MOB.

 

We have a fixed FLIR on the hardtop and have used it a few times it definately helps in identifying objects at night. It is on a separate monitor that I can dim way down and even rotate away if needed. I agree that learning how to really set up and use your radar is also a great tool but the added security helps. I like to have an array of tools in my toolbox so if you can fit it in the budget do it .

 

A buddy picked up a fixed mount he is installing this year, I broke down and went with a hand held because of the rebate. It has an output so you dont have to look through it but feed it to a screen so this way you can move it anywhere you want with no restrictions. Also I can use it at home we have a ton of wild life huge deer, bobcats, turkeys, all kinds of stuff that is cool to watch in the off season. It really does exactly what they say, I like the thermal and night vision switch back and forth. I youtube'd the heck out of it before buying it.

http://www.flir.com/marine/display/?id=67126

 

I've been on 2 boats that have it and did 2 completely different kinds of cruising with it. Now mind you I wasn't captaining when I was on these boats so the distraction level didn't matter to me but the first boat was a 2014 33 ft grady this trip we were offshore and up on plane at about 30 mph. The flir was the full panning version but was only mounted about 12 ft above the water surface. Now we were in small seas so it being so low didn't really matter but in anything bigger then a 5 ft sea I think it would usless. But being so calm it has helpfull. Very clear picture we could spot garbage seagulls and navigation markers within a pretty good distance away. But I would have to compare to the radar to c how far away it was. Now the other boat was a 48 DB, flir mounted about 28ft up? Full pan. We were going about 12 mph on a seas flat surface. Again not captaining. It was on the Hudson River so I feal it was very useful in picking out crap in the water there was a couple times we had to change coarse due to small wood and barrels that we noticed on the screen but couldn't see with the naked eye until about 10 ft away. Old radars probably wouldn't have picked up.
If I had the disposable money to install one I would without a doubt do it. As for the distraction level I can't really say but I could c it being an issue at cruise but not at slow speeds. As Havana said having it is better then not and will always help if it's distracting you just simply turn it off.

 

Not sure how its a distraction, I would think it's reassurance. I have dual E120 displays, my thought is to have radar and gps slip on one screen and FLIR on the other.

 

Like so many tools - the impact is very much related to the type of boating you do and the area you are in. No question the technology works as described - and could be very helpful for some. I thought I would be using FLIR all the time, on a regular basis. Was sharing that the expectations of how I thought I would use it didn't exactly pan out.



Jon, I also have dual E120's. The distraction comment was not related to display real estate, rather captain scan time. When underway I am continually scanning the environment visually, radar, chart plotter, frequent glance at the Smartview on engine status. It was adding in that additional scan element. I know that I am not the most experienced captain out there - so I stay very focused on what the boat is doing and my surroundings.

If you have a mate on the helm that could focus considerable time on that screen, then yes. I tend to have that mate forward on the helm so they have a different point of view watching for lights. They are looking to pick up a set of lights that might be blocked by the hardtop posts from my sightline. When we are out in darkness its typically because we left our slip before daylight or we are headed back to the slip after dark. The area around our slip for several miles is heavy recreational and commercial traffic. This is both ICW and after leaving the inlet nearby. Yes I am concerned about obstacles in the water - but highest level of concern in this area is identifying boats around me and knowing what they are doing.

Very small craft who will not show up on radar easily - great positive impact of FLIR.

This makes me think of another technology tool: AIS. I don't have AIS, but I thought that would be an early addition to this boat.

Once again - my preconceived instinct didn't hold up for our boating situation (back to the everyone faces different factors).

Our environment is very heavy traffic from small craft up to 150ft+ yachts. Once we leave the inlet, all the same as inside plus oil tankers, cargo ships, and other large vessels. This is between Miami and Fort Lauderdale.

I have left the inlet, moving 2-3 miles off shore and had 38 radar contacts (all were vessels) on a 1.5NM scan. With an AIS display running on my iPad, most were not transmitting an AIS identifier. The ones that were, were large enough vessels there was no doubt about a radar return.

My feeling is that AIS would let me know about large(r) vessels, but most of the traffic AIS would not help with. I use AIS apps on the iPad at times, but have not integrated it into the vessel.

At the end of the day - there are all types of tools - some fit each of us better than others.

Just my random thoughts,

Mark

Mark

 

Interesting discussion, guys.

I’m with Joe in regards to having various tools in your “toolbox”. FLIR is nothing more than an aid to navigation. As with any new tool/nav aid, there’s a learning curve. If it becomes more of destruction, IMO, it’s not an aid and one needs to keep adjusting and learning the best way using these aids. I’m positive that all it needs just few more outings and you’ll start getting the hang of it.

There are various “classifications” (for the lack of better term) in the night cruising. For example, cruising in ICW in a metropolitan area, having all kids of surrounding lighting is very different than complete darkness out in the ocean or rural ICW with zero lighting.

Basic interpretation of primary nav aids; MFD = knowing where you’re going and RADAR = seeing where you’re going. I would treat FLIR as nothing more than a verification of RADAR targets (seeing where you’re going). I would never use FLIR as primary tool over the RADAR. As you can imagine, the major difference is that a radar is doing constant 360 deg. scan, seeking targets all around. If you don’t see the targets (I’m talking about decent size targets, not a small log or a bird) on your radar and picked it up on the FLIR, this means that your radar must be adjusted.

IMO, the worst scenario of a night cruising is heavy rain and heavy seas. I’ve done a lot or cruising at night, in all kinds of conditions. When I was in a situation of rain and heavy seas (when I say heavy, I mean 5-6’ers chop with spray covering the bridge), I had no choice but turn on my search light. I felt it was necessary to use it as an aid to pick up smaller targets (mostly lobster pots) on my path. Due to the heavy rain, I had to adjust the radar to get rid of the rain clutter. This affects the target search and makes the radar “less sensitive” (return less targets, especially smaller ones). This is when a FLIR will be your best friend.

In order to prevent the “destruction factor”, I’d say that a captain has to prioritize the nav aids. It one of those “it all depends” categories. Using my examples above, we can see that every type of cruising is different. When you have a common destination, then it’s easier to get the nav aid priority order going. But, as the cruising waters change, you have to make necessary adjustments.

Mark,
Regarding your observation with AIS, I’d like to clarify couple of things. First of all, and most importantly, is to consider the fact that majority of the smaller vessels won’t have it (receiver or transponder). So, you’ll have to rely on the radar to pick them up. The primary feature of AIS is to “identify” a target, which should have been a “blimp” on the radar screen. Granted that in some cases you could pick up a target on AIS but not on your radar, but this means that your radar needs to be adjusted to make sure you “see” the target and using AIS you’d know “what” that target is.

Using mobile device to identify AIS targets can give you an idea, but you need to know the difference about the AIS broadcasting. There’s a real-time (unit to unit) and there’s a land base transmission:

1. Real-time, this is when vessels equipped with AIS transponder, transmit and receive AIS signals by their units and the targets are displayed on their MFD screen. This is as real-time as it gets and is limited to the AIS antenna range (approx. 10-20NM, depending on application).
   
2. Land-based broadcast is only near shore or inland. This is when vessels broadcast their AIS signal and the land-based towers pick it up and send it to centralized database. This could be delayed by few min to few hours or more. A good example is when a vessel goes for offshore voyage, the last signal was received when it left the shore. The database won’t get updated with its latest position until the vessel is able to communicate with nearby tower, which is the destination. I’m not sure if commercial (class A) communication has a way to communicate via satellite (I’d like to say they do), but from my experience, recreational transponders use land-base towers.

Hope this helps a little.

 

Alex thanks for your comments. I think in the end, it comes back to the conditions and environment you boat in. The classifications you described for different environments were spot on.

I feel like I got the hang for what FLIR would do for me - just that in our situation it did not have the impact I hoped for. The view presented by the camera is not inclusive of the situation you are in, doesn't show an arc that is wide enough. Raise the camera up, you get a wide arc, but lose the detail right in front of the boat for floating objects. Point it lower, you lose the arc. It does require movement of the camera to see the full picture of what you are faced. This is what consumes the cycles, checking the screen and waiting for the camera to move to the desired visibility zone.

Most of the time it was more than just looking at a screen - it was adjusting, repointing, etc. That was my comment that if someone is watching the FLIR primarily - they are providing those functions.

Depends on your individual boating situation - did not have the impact I hoped for in the environments that we find ourselves boating in.

I guess I would summarize my FLIR input in two statements:

1. FLIR technology works as described.
2. May or may not have substantive impact based on your boating environment and cruising activities.

Regarding the AIS - you hit the nail on the head. The boats I am most worried about are not going to have AIS. The boats that have AIS I have already accounted for.

I looked at AIS pretty hard for our use in FL - and also along with a friend that was considering it for his use.

For me - the land based is occasionally used. I haven't been motivated to move beyond that to real-time for our situation. Our usage of AIS is primarily around the Port of Miami or Lauderdale.

At this point, are not considering addition of the real-time transponder.

I have a friend who lives and boats in Maine. There are frequent visibility situations which are not forecasted and just appear. Penobscot Bay where he spends a lot of his time has multiple ferries that crisscross across the bay. He went the path of real-time, when the fog rolled in he wanted to know where those ferries were. Absolutely a "tool" in the toolkit that only needs one foggy morning to pay for itself.

Two very different boating environments - two different sets of requirements.

So, I brought up two technologies that did not have the impact I expected. The technology that did surpass my expectations was radar. Have had it before - but was always smaller, closed array, without the power that the one I have now has. Old news to most of you - but for me - have really come to appreciate money spent on that tool. I will not have another boat without at least comparable radar capability.

----- Begin section that only applies to my type of boating

I guess what I am saying - for me, in my situation. If I had a less than optimal radar, I would spend money on upgrading the radar before FLIR or AIS.

----- End only applies to me comments

Just my thoughts,

Mark

 

AIS is good, but it has its shortcoming as others have noted. One aspect I really like about AIS, is the vector.

Marpa and even one step up, Arpa are also great to see other vessels course vector. I love a line with an arrow on it.

Interesting comments re the night vision Flir aspects. I would only want it on a separate display, dim low, and preferably someone else adjusting the camera angles. In an unfamiliar area, say coming in to a channel, dark, looking at the gps, radar, Gage's, and out the window is a lot of input data to process. I suppose if I were stopped, or going super slow, and then looked at the camera to see the bouy, rocks, etc it would be helpful. I am redoing my mast and radar next year and Flir is still a possibility.

 

AIS is one of the best tools I've invested. Based on my cruising, it's a perfect nav aid.

Going back to the point of FLIR requiring a captain being more involved, it goes very much hand in hand with the basic rule of night cruising. Don't outrun your vision. If you slow down to displacement speed, you'll be surprized how everything changes. You're a lot more relaxed, as you'll have plenty of time to react and diagest the information you're receiving from all of your devices. It will allow you to spend a little more time operating the FLIR, move it around, zoom in/out. You will have the time to analize radar targets and see details of AIS targets.

My helm provides me with the info from 5 different "displays". Two of my E120s have split screens providing different data and the iPad is playing a role of 3rd MFD or "5th screen". I'd love to have another MFD, but my helm doesn't have a room and I'm not convinced that adding one on a Pod is necessary.

 

Alex how much does it cost for a tour of "Inspiration" It is SOOO going to be our next model craft!

 

Alex, I only run at displacement speed at night and slow crawl neutral whenever I am near obstacles or there is any doubt as to what is on my screen. overall, it is good to hear that most people like it, and find it useful. When I was boating in the 80's this stuff was not available. Thanks to the OP for starting the discussion.

 

Awesome Alex. I REALLY appreciate it, I've been drooling over the 05 420 for long time. It should be the ultimate craft for us to stay on much longer than we do now. Holly needs to check it out to be 100% sure, but how couldn't she be lol!

Sorry for the thread side track guys.

 

I have used FLIR many times to include coming along side a ship at night in pouring rain and operating in total WOXOF weather. I followed a six-pack barge for hours near New Orleans and he said he never saw me but I could read his transom name......I liked knowing he was there and FLIR showed me everything.

Kind of like bow thrusters...would have to ask myself if the cost was worth the advantages. I may not use them often but when needed, they make all the dif !


Capt. R

 

John, I will google that handheld and learn more, but I was wondering, can you feed the output to an Ipad? What display are you using? Do you find the display works well, verses looking in to the lenses direct?

 

I have used several hand held units. They certainly work, but the only handheld units I have that will feed to the Ipad/external display are on par with the cost of the MD625 unit. So, during my radar and electronics upgrade, I made the decision to buy the fixed mount marine version for longevity and durability.

Also, in my experience the users that complain of image quality and other issues are usually not the people that have been through the Flir imaging training. I have been through their courses a couple of times and can appreciate the fine tuning that is required to set up properly.

 

Is the fixed mount a waste of money? Will it show me what I need it to? Or do I need to cough up the cash and get the full pan tilt does it look zoom too?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I'm running a Garmin 8000 series and can feed it in via an RCA video cable to the aux port. I haven't physically connected the two yet as its been way to cold. I haven't used an iPad with it...... yet. that's a great idea though

 

I ordered the Flir, ocean scout 240 today. It's their cheapest handheld, but still pricey at 2k.

after reading what others have wrote, I figured this would be a good tool since I run at night a lot, including the off shore islands.

if the unit works well, my long term plan would be the addition of an M series on the mast. Tbd.

 

So I finally found the time to get the Flir camera installed:



Image is very good imo:



Thats a flock of 7-8 birds 100 yards off the bow.

I only had about 20 mins to play with it, but so far I am very pleased.

 

Nice install it's a cool tool to add to your navigation toolbox as we all stated previously. Have you thought about adding a separate display dedicated to the FLIR? This way it doesn't take away your chartplotter. Mine is on a seperate flip down monitor used in cars for watching dvd's (installed by PO) it's not intrusive and flips out of the way during the day. Either way you'll enjoy the added night vision

 

Yes, that is in the works. I agree that using the chartplotter for the Flir takes away an important tool. That is the next step as well as getting the Flir on my network so that I can access with my iPad/iPhone. Always something to do.