Hello! Welcome to CSR!

Thank you first and foremost for the detailed introduction. The more info we have, the better we can answer your questions and get to know you. This site, as you have found out, is full of incredible people and beautiful boats. I hope you find your stay here welcoming and helpful!

The 268 is really a great boat in concept, separate dinette and trailerable, but as you know suffers from the dreaded list and factory underpower. The Chevy 350 should have never been offered in that vessel. The 454, while an excellent engine, was too much of a torque monster mated to the Alpha 1, hence the reason SR dropped that power package after only two years.

I recommend you pick up the 350 you mentioned for $2K if you can and enjoy the boat the way it is. A repower to a 454 will be cost prohibitive as you will only be throwing salt into an open wound. Now, if money were no object, I could say that it's reasonable to re-rig the entire transom assembly with a Bravo package and then you could reliably run a 454 magnum. That is, if your hull is PERFECT. Anything less than a perfect hull, interior, gel coat etc, would be an exercise in futility as you would never get your money back out of that boat. Don't give up on her! Replace the engine and enjoy. Don't expect her to be a speed queen, that 26 mph is spot on for a heavy girl. Expect about 2.5 mpg at cruise rpm on glass. Keep your gas tank less than half full if you will always be near a marina, and keep your fresh water tank as low as you can bear. No sense in carrying around dead weight.

To answer your questions about value...a boat without an engine is only valuable to a salvage operator or someone who has an engine to drop in it and use. You would be hard pressed to get $1,000 for the boat with a bad engine in it. The trailer is an entirely different matter. You say it is oversized for the boat? I'm assuming it's a triple axle, wide beam trailer? If so, in good condition, it is worth $2500-$4000! But since you have more than that in the whole package, you are still upside down on selling either the boat, or the trailer separately. The only real interest you would get on the boat is if it's in running condition, so if you want to sell it, you are going to have to replace the engine regardless. If you do that, you might as well enjoy the boat.

BTW, $2,000 is a great price for a rebuilt 350 marine engine, assuming that it's in drop-in condition. I hope that comes with a warranty! Michigan Motorz sells 350 Vortec long blocks for $2,300. Then you would need to swap over your marine components. If I were you, I would definitely consider a Vortec 350. It is a significant upgrade over the stock 260. A Vortec with roller valvetrain will produce 300-320 horsepower. Make sure you are getting an engine that matches what you currently have. 1986 was the transitional year for Chevy 350's. If your boat is an '86, it may have a 1985 engine in it which is a two-piece rear main seal crankshaft. That uses a different flywheel, coupler and starter than post '86 blocks which are one piece rear mains.

I could go on and on about this subject as I have done this dance already on my 250 DA, but I will wait for others to chime in here with their thoughts and expertise. At any rate, I wish you the absolute best, and feel free to PM me for more info.

 

Ditto to the above post on replacing and using it.

Selling it with a non going motor would be a loss.


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With regards to the listing and balance of the boat. Get familiar with your trim tabs. Possibly even upgrading to a smart tab configuration.


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Our first boat was a 1982 27' 4" (water line) with twin 3.8 V sixs. It was under powered I think each engine put out 175 HP. Bigger engines would have been nice but would have cost lots. Fully loaded with food for 2 weeks, 50 gallons of water and full tank of gas and 35 gallons of gas on the swim platform the boat would do 22 to 24 knots at 3800RPM. That was fast enough for us. If your boat will do 26 MPH I would feel happy. Based on our 28 footer it was well up on plain and handled well. We have a jet boat with the newer version of the 350 in it and it is a fine engine.
Good Luck

 

Thanks so much for your responses!

Ten Years Gone, thanks for all your information and insight! My husband is afraid of pushing that Alpha drive with a bigger horsepower engine and this one he found is, from what I understand, the same as what we had. It is drop-in ready with a 2 year warranty.

As far as the ride, he keeps the gas lower and the water tank on the full side to help with weight distribution. The Captain said it lists in the dock only, but he doesn't feel it like I do when we're out there and I think it's because he's at the helm. It's not that bad as it was initially and he does use the trim tabs, too, but as he's gotten to know the boat, he's been able to tweak things. Big Island Lifer, I'll have to check into smart tab configuration, though.

By the way, Big Island Lifer, is your Amberjack 255 dropped in or trailered in? I think it does weigh a bit more and from what I understand, the 268 is the limit before a transmission is ruined.

Well, apparently, I misunderstood about the trailer. It's an older trailer, a double axle and although it may be a little long for the boat, my husband says it is undersized. He says the boat is at that trailer's limit but it works. At some point I'll try to upload a picture, I tried to upload the before picture but the file's too large and I'm not adept at resizing pictures, I'll have to get the husband to help me figure that out.


northern, we have on average 6 or 7 people on board at times, cruising is around 26 mph and The tops out about 30-32 mph. We've had some comments from riders about how slow our boat is, so I guess that's pretty slow! I already knew before buying it that we were going to have an underpowered boat from reading here!:smt001

My husband is supposed to talk to the guy selling the engine in person this Saturday. We're going to have to enjoy this boat a few more years! It really is/was a good boat, there is nothing wrong with the hull. I did forget there is some damage to one corner of the swim platform that was there when we bought it, too, the captain says he'll be fixing that, too. Don't want to go overboard with the reupholstery, probably wouldn't get our money back out of a complete interior re-do, but the bench cushion under the port hatch had some water damage. That leak was fixed by the previous owner, but we have to fix the cushion. The rest of the interior has nothing wrong with it but you could say could be updated. You're all probably familiar with all the 80's Sea Ray fabrics.

I will probably ask some more pointed questions regarding some of these other cosmetic things outside of what I've gleaned from here on previous threads. Ironically, was planning on my other inquiries when this engine crack happened last weekend when he was testing it with the muffs! We had gotten a late start this season as it is.

Thanks again!

 

T

By the way, Big Island Lifer, is your Amberjack 255 dropped in or trailered in? I think it does weigh a bit more and from what I understand, the 268 is the limit before a transmission is ruined.
!

I don't have a trailer for my boat. It sits in a covered slip in the summer. It is also a heavy underpowered barge. I rarely go above cocktail speed with anymore than 4 aboard. My top speed is 30mph and I can hold plane with full tabs at about 12 mph.
I had a new block (rebuilt) installed about 200 hours ago. With the original drive I had about 2000 hours on the original 1985 motor. The drive finally gave up last year.
My dream for this rig would be a Bravo III with a new 8.2. That would be about 15 grand so I don't see that happening any time soon.
Good luck.

Darren



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I would look for a new (not rebuilt) longblock if everything else on your motor is in good shape and your husband is good mechanically. Rebuilt can mean a lot of things and 2K is a lot of money to spend. With a brand new longblock you know it is brand new.
Here is a good option for $2499:
http://www.michiganmotorz.com/350ci-base-marine-engine-19671986-replacement-p-66.html
The extra $500 dollars may seem like a lot, but if you have problems with a rebuilt you will probably wish you spent the extra money.
If the boat you have now is solid and fits your needs it's probably worth it.
I re-powered my 87 300 Sundancer last year with two brand new motors and never looked back. It had one bad motor and I couldn't have gotten too much for it the way it was, the boat was otherwise in really good shape, it really suits our needs, and there is no way I could have gotten something that size in that shape with the options it has for what it cost me to re-power. I could have gotten away with just one motor, but decided to do both. I was able to sell the good motor to offset some of the additional cost.

 

As an additional consideration, when you install the new engine, you can also install fresh water cooling, which will go a long way towards lowering maintenance costs and also prevent future issues, since you will already have anti-freeze in the block.

 

I have a 1988 sea ray sundancer 270 for sale if your interested in going that route. new motors in 2010 and everything mechanical is up to date and ready to go. you cans see pictures and more info on craigslist nh bos or cape cod and ebay. just sayin

 

Thanks for the additional info. The Michigan Motors long block is a worthwhile consideration but then it's plus shipping which I think will be some hundred dollars more, too, right?

The engine my husband found and will be looking at is a rebuilt Mercruiser 260 hp, 5.7L mid 80's. My husband says it's a "complete engine". He will need to re-attach the manifolds, alternator, fresh water cooling system, power steering pump, and starter, and I guess "change the pulleys out". He's also going to include taking out our old engine and drop the new one in for us, but not connect anything.

Okay, now got an "update" from the Captain. He talked to the guy about a new Chevy long block he also has for $2500. That one has a two year warranty. This other 2K complete engine rebuild would be a "30 day warranty". I told my husband he better get it in writing and make it a so many HOURS warranty.

What do you guys think about this "deal"? I just don't know, we're interested in what anyone has to say.

Disposable Income, if we had that, we wouldn't have such a problem on our hands! :smt001 Love the 270, we're in Ohio, though, so you're just a little too out of the way for us! I wish you the best on your sale, though!
,

 

Dont buy the '30 Day warranty' may as well be what we jokingly call 'Driveway Warranty' once you have driven out of the premises it is void!

30 days, that is not much, probably be lucky if you use the boat once, serious, buy the motor and install it, how many days? 7 - 14, crappy weather, finally get it in for a test and warranty has expired.

30 Days shows absolutely no faith in the product, really questions what has actually been done to the motor, there are several ways to rebuild an engine, the correct way and the cheap way, and several in between.

I would be investigating what the previous post suggested have a look at reputable supplier such as he suggested, and actually contact them and get a shipping cost rather than surmising what the shipping cost would be.

 

I repowered my 25 that I had a few years back with the vortec.it was still a 5.7 but was 320HP.the alpha will hold up no issue as long as you are nice to it.the extra HP changed the whole boat.never had an issue getting on plane.the guy that I sold it to brought 6 adults for the seatrial to see how it planed off.I jumped into it hard and the boat took off.his mechanic then gave 2 thumbs up and we sold the boat at that moment.its only a little more then a regular repower with a 5.7 but worth every penny.

 

johngus, I hear ya, my husband is too afraid to blow out the outdrive if something got pushed too far by mistake or whatever. He appreciated hearing your comments, we'll look into it as it sounds tempting.

IanBat, I completely agree, and so does my husband, he reaffirmed he is not committed to this but is looking into it when he talks to the guy and takes a look. Just them even saying to him "30 day warranty" on a boat engine, for all the reasons you mentioned how impractical that is, has made me take a step back.

My husband's time seems to be getting shorter and shorter to work on things. He's on the road right now. The fact that the rebuilt engine is supposedly drop in ready is appealing to him considering what he'll need to do to build up a long block. Of course, that is with him checking things out. He says, I can talk to the guy and know if this guy is as experienced as he says he is with 45 years worth. His negotiations were with the service manager of this place up at Port Clinton, the guy who rebuilt this engine is one of his mechanics. But we're not committing to anything, told the Captain we're not that desperate and we would have to have everything in writing and a fair and reasonable warranty as well. He needs to check it out, though.

Yes, I would have to give a call to Michigan Motors if we can't find anything local, I thought I saw some advertised on ebay with $400 or so freight charge so I mentioned a rough estimate.

 

Michigan and Ohio aren't very far apart. Does Michigan Motors allow pick ups, and how far would it be?

 

I still think you should go for the longblock. If you can get the brand new one locally for the same price and avoid shipping costs that's even better, but take in to consideration sales tax. Not sure what your state charges, but when I bought my two motors it was cheaper for me to pay the shipping from Michigan and not the sales tax, than to buy them locally for the same price. Since the longblock is brand new there is no return shipping to worry about for the core.
Just make sure that the longblock that is available locally is a marine version, and not a car or truck motor. The ones that MichiganMotorz sells are the same ones that Mercruiser uses as a base to build their marine engines, so the internals and externals like cam, freeze out plugs, etc. are all correct for marine use.
You can go for the 87 and newer style, or Vortec, but they generally charge more for them and it would mean getting a different intake manifold and since they are the one piece rear main seals you would need a different flywheel. You would probably also need a different ignition to reap the full rewards of the extra power.
My replacements are carbureted with Vortec style heads and intake, but I bought the complete replacement motors so all the extra stuff came with them.
IMHO: It really isn't worth the extra money and hassle for HP you probably won't use all that often. If you're on a tight budget and want to keep things simple you are better off just replacing your motor with the exact same type.
Swinging the motor in and out shouldn't be all that expensive if that's all he is going to do for you. I think I paid the guy who did mine for me about $100 a motor, and he came back twice with his bucket truck. Once to take them out, and a second time a couple of weeks later to put the new ones in after they were fully dressed, and I had time to scrub the bilge.
My boat was way too big with the 11' beam to trailer to my friends auto repair shop and back in to one of the bays, but if you have access to a trailer and with your narrower beam you should be able to find an auto repair shop that will let you just back it in under their chain block. My friend buys and sells boats that need motors whenever they pop up, and after he gets everything disconnected he backs them in to one of his bays and pulls them with the chain block all the time. It takes about 10 minutes at the most. Putting the new motor back in is just the reverse.
It's much easier to pull all the stuff off of your old motor on the ground, and then clean it up and put it all on the new one while it is still sitting on the shipping blocks. With a long block it will involve intake, carb, ignition, pulleys, brackets, belts, hoses, manifolds, risers, moor mounts, starter, alternator, etc. It's all really simple bolt on stuff.
If your husband has the space, and a little ingenuity, he can either make something up to use to hoist the motor, or rent hoist.

 

One other thing that I did and am happy about is installed half system fresh water cooling on the new motors. My boat was raw water cooled before.
I would have gone for the full systems, but my bilge is already tight enough with the two motors, and it would have meant installing raw water pumps on the motors. I would have loved to do that and not have to depend on the tiny impellers in the alpha gen 1's, but didn't want to deal with the hassle and make it even harder to work in my bilge. I do often regret not having those raw water pumps though.
If you don't have FWC already, and can possibly swing it, now would be the time to do it.

 

you should look at Jasper engines
they now make a top quality marine line of engines
not cheap but the warranty is unsurpassed

 

If you ultimately decide to go with a rebuilt or re-manufactured motor than I agree that you should look at the Jaspers. Much better warranty than 30 days, and more likely to stand behind it nationally.
The problems with rebuilt is that you never really know what that means. It could be something as simple as a teardown and put back together after a clean up with new rings and bearings. Or, it could mean new cam, bored out, new pistons, re-conditioned rods, re-ground crank, etc. If so, how much did they punch the block out, and how much did they cut the crank? Lot's of variables. Many rebuilt motors run forever, but you just never know.
Things can happen to a brand new motor too, but the odds are better in your favor with new. Especially when the price difference is not all that much.
The beauty of the small block GM (Chevy) V8 is that they make a ton of them. So much so that they are usually cheaper to buy new than a new GM V6 or 4Cyl.
It often means that there is less of a difference in price between rebuilt and new with them. Why not take advantage of it?

 

I would like to compliment you on the technical knowledge you have obtained. My wife still calls the lines, ropes and does not have much interest in anything technical. I hope things work out with your re power and you get back on the water soon. I have a feeling with your tenacity, you will.

 

Thanks to all for taking the time to give your opinions and information!

Billfletcher, thanks! I really don't know all that much about engines, but getting a quick education, though! I have to tell you I have a tendency to call fenders as bumpers!

My husband is not familiar with the Vortec and is wondering what peripherals cross over from the Chevy small block to the Vortec, like carburation, ignition system (we have the "thunderbolt ignition"), and the OEM equipped cooling system. His biggest concern is putting in an engine that is the upper limit of our outdrive.

My husband is also surprised to hear of this turn-around on Jasper rebuilds.

My husband's concern about getting a long block is the logistics in actually doing it, as he would have to haul both engines back to Cleveland area, as well as the extra expenses on big ticket items. Apparently, our current carburetor needs rebuilt also. We did stall once last year.

JVM225, thanks for your post. The nice thing about this guy lifting our old engine out and dropping the rebuild in, that is, if we would go with that, it would be much easier than my husband having to build something in the garage to hoist it. Also, thanks for the reminder about sales tax. I believe the rebuild is out the door 2K, not so sure if they're willing on that long block to negotiate that into the bottom line of the reported $2500. Also, I don't think this boat will see salt water so in order to contain costs, we're sticking with the current cooling system. Thanks for the info!

I think one of my husband's main concern is overdoing it on this boat so he wants to be cost effective, that doesn't necessarily mean we don't want the security of a new long block build up. We like the boat, we want it to last a few years but it probably won't be our last one. He's going to talk to the technician who actually did the rebuild tomorrow morning. The engine and long block are coming from a boat dealer/parts and service marina that's been in business in Port Clinton for over 40 years.

Big Island Lifer, thanks for filling me in on the Amberjack. I really like all the deck space on that one! The people we got our place from had one, from what I remember he liked it. But he wanted a Marinette with 11 foot beam and hard top. He's retiring in Sandusky Bay Johnson's Island so I imagine that's part of why since most of his boating is going to be on that side. We actually have a slip for the summer, too, we launch it off a nearby ramp, another trimmed expense from having to use a hoist. But it's something we'll have to do if we go with a bigger boat someday.

 

The Vortec is one of the best and cheapest upgrades you can make to a stock Chevy 350. It is essentially a free 30-40 horsepower upgrade by simply using a roller valvetrain and heads that have much MUCH better flow and combustion characteristics over the old-school truck heads, (known as smogger heads), which is what you have on your current engine. I would never go back to a flat tappet valvetrain with smog heads. The 10 horsepower that you MIGHT see over the Alpha 1's rated limit will NOT break it. What destroys an Alpha 1 is the right hand of the captain. I guarantee that I could destroy an Alpha 1 with a stock 350 if you give me a heavy enough boat and an angry throttle hand and enough time. As another poster mentioned, you simply have to be gentle with your throttle hand when applying maximum rated power to an Alpha. The reason why there was a high rate of failure among Alphas that were behind 454's is because while the 454 was only rated at 310-330 horsepower, it was the available TORQUE that is the killer of gearsets. A 454 has much more torque than a 350, so you must understand that even a 350 horsepower 350 small block, is not going to do the same damage at full throttle that a 300 horsepower 454 big block can do. Torque is king. Torque loves to twist metal into broken and bent pieces. Thats why the Bravo drive was designed. It is to the Alpha 1 what a Ford F-350 is to a Ford Ranger. I hope this helps you make a decision to at least give the Vortec engines a consideration. I love mine.

BTW, a Vortec is nothing more than a stock Chevy 350 (5.7 L) with a roller valvetrain and Vortec heads. The heads were made and used from 1996-1999. The ONLY thing different is the intake manifold, because the Vortec heads have different bolt patterns (8 bolts for the intake versus 12 for the old school heads) The aluminum Edelbrock Performer series intakes are perfect for a freshwater engine. They are currently around $200. Your ignition, cooling and fuel delivery systems will not be affected. One thing to keep in mind, while the Vortec heads can be put on virtually any 350 block...if you want the roller valvetrain, you must find a provisioned block, which started in 1986. Also, DON'T forget that your block must also be provisioned with a mechanical fuel pump boss, otherwise you will have to plumb and wire an electric pump. Hope I haven't overwhelmed you with info. My apologies to everyone who already knew all this stuff! :grin:

From Wiki...

The Vortec 5700 L31 (Vin code 8th digit "R") is a V8 truck engine. Displacement is 5.7 L. It is the last production Generation I small-block from Chevrolet. The cylinder heads feature combustion chambers and intake ports very similar to those of the LT1 V8, but without the reverse-flow cooling. As such, the L31 head is compatible with all older small-blocks, and is a very popular upgrade. It offers the performance of more expensive heads, at a much lower cost. It does, however, require a specific intake manifold (a Vortec head has 8 bolts attaching the intake manifold as opposed to the traditional twelve bolts per head). The L31 was replaced by the 5.3 L 5300 LM7. The 2002 model year was the final year for the L31 5.7 L small block V-8 whose origins date back to 1955. The Vortec 5700 produces 255 hp (190 kW) to 350 hp (261 kW) at 4600 rpm and 330 lb·ft (447 N·m) to 350 lb·ft (475 N·m) of torque at 2800 rpm. It is currently being produced as a crate engine for marine applications and automotive hobbyists as the "ramjet 350" with minor modifications. (My emphasis)

L31 applications:

• 1996–2003 Chevrolet Express/GMC Savana full-size vans
• 1996–1999 Chevrolet/GMC C/K full-size trucks
• 1996–1999 Chevrolet Suburban/GMC Suburban full-size long-wheelbase SUVs
• 1996–1999 Chevrolet Tahoe/GMC Yukon (and 2000 Tahoe Limited and 2000 Tahoe Z71 models) full-size short-wheelbase SUVs
• 1999–2000 Cadillac Escalade

 

the knowledge of members on this site never ceases to amaze me. fantastic discussion, I've learned a lot!

 

Said earlier..."rebuilt can mean many things to many people".I would want to know everything about that engine!
Who rebuilt what and when? What was replaced and what was reused?



I just don't want you to waste $2000 on someone else's problem engine.
Or, a less than professional rebuild that just won't last!


I'm sorry to be so skeptical but, Caveat emptor..
Sometimes the cheaper way out.......isn't .


Good luck,
Mark.

 

Ten Years Gone, I wanted to thank you for your earlier warm welcome and for the in depth information you have provided. I will relay this and your personal testimony to my husband as I had also with others' positive experiences with the Vortec.

Mark, absolutely! My husband is there right now with another mechanically inclined person whose opinion we highly regard. That person has found out from asking around that this mechanic who built this engine has many years of experience and has an excellent reputation around those parts. That said, if we went that route, a fair and reasonable warranty on the rebuild in writing.


Just related your response to my husband, Ten Years Gone, apparently he has already left, don't have the full report yet, but he's calling back as he did mean to ask about the Vortec long block. I had called him earlier, from what I understand, they were running the rebuild somehow.

Thanks so much again! I'll post on the report from today's inquiry with the mechanic.


Update: Apparently the trial with the rebuild went well. The friend he was with is of the opinion he should go with the rebuild and thinks it's good. He also knows my husband is limited on time and resources. They both went in depth with the mechanic. The mechanic was jokingly told they did a "background check" on him. However, we're going to weigh all this out and my husband is looking into the Vortec. The service manager was at lunch so he left a voicemail. So we're going to take our time to figure this out and price out everything. In looking at the rebuild and talking with the mechanic who did the work, my husband is of the opinion he did a great detailed job.

I'm getting ready to join them up there, in Columbus helping my father. I'll get back after the weekend. I hope everyone has a great weekend and fun time on the water!

Also, I agree rcon! I had learned so much from just reading threads around here, on any matter of particulars! It's so much appreciated!

 

I wanted to pop in and wish you the best of luck on geting your boat back together. Keep us updated as you progress and it sounds like the great people of CSR has already stepped up to help.

Good Luck.