I removed all the hardware and all the caulk from every seam on my 310 Sundancer before I refurbished it. I now need to recaulk everything, inside the cockpit and out including the rub rail top and bottom. I will be remounting stainless hardware as well. What white caulk and sealant do you all recommend?
craigwitt
4200 and 5200 are NOT UV stabilized. Besides, their main purpose is gluing, not caulking. In the case of 5200, if you need to remove the fixture in the future, there's a good chance you'll rip the fiberglass before the glue separates.
BoatLife LifeSeal is excellent, as is 3M 4000UV. Either of those will work perfectly.
Keep in mind, these will be WHITE - your boat is not perfectly white. It really won't matter much as it will be pretty hard to see the difference in the amount you'll be using. I've used them on my boat (should be the same color as your boat) and can't tell. The most obvious place will be the rubrail, but then, the rubrail itself is white. I think, but not sure, that Bostik might have a color to match.
BoatLife LifeSeal is excellent, as is 3M 4000UV. Either of those will work perfectly.
Keep in mind, these will be WHITE - your boat is not perfectly white. It really won't matter much as it will be pretty hard to see the difference in the amount you'll be using. I've used them on my boat (should be the same color as your boat) and can't tell. The most obvious place will be the rubrail, but then, the rubrail itself is white. I think, but not sure, that Bostik might have a color to match.
Dennis is correct about 3m 4200 and 5200. They are more adhesive than sealant. They are both polyurethane based. I would argue 5200 has no place on a boat. It bonds tighter than the gelcoat binds to the fiberglass.
If the hardware will have it's own mechanical fastener butyl rubber is a great product. It will last forever and stretches well. It can be dissolved by petroleum based cleaners and fuels.
John
If the hardware will have it's own mechanical fastener butyl rubber is a great product. It will last forever and stretches well. It can be dissolved by petroleum based cleaners and fuels.
John
When I'm putting deck hardware on, I'd rather not take it off again. I'd like to do it once and be done. If I can put 4200 or 5200 on it, and only do it once, that's good enough for me. If I have to pull a cleat back off (I have no idea why I'd have to), I can cut the 42/52 with a razor and get the piece off. Also, when I'm doing a caulk job on a fitting of some sort, I don't leave any more exposed edge than necesary, so the UV part doesn't matter much to me.
Here is an interesting article on using butyl rubber to re-bed. The author also supplies the butyl rubber product. Note: I haven't done this yet, I only bookmarked the link. http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware
I've never had a problem. I want things to be permanent, and 5200 is. Also, Craig is looking to do a rubrail which is PRECISELY what 42/52 was meant for. IMO, Boatlife is SH*T. I've used it to seal some window frames before, and I could literally just peel it off in strips. It didn't stick at all.
It also seems to me that the reasons all of you are giving for why 5200 is no good, is precisely why it IS so good. When sealing something, why would you NOT want something that bonds permanently, and better than gelcoat? That sounds to me like the perfect sealant, but what do I know? Some people like doing things multiple times.
Also, with some patience, Debond 2000 will remove 42/52.
It also seems to me that the reasons all of you are giving for why 5200 is no good, is precisely why it IS so good. When sealing something, why would you NOT want something that bonds permanently, and better than gelcoat? That sounds to me like the perfect sealant, but what do I know? Some people like doing things multiple times.
Also, with some patience, Debond 2000 will remove 42/52.
Debond does work on removing 42/52. But even 3m who makes 42/52 recommend 4000 or 101 for bedding products. I am redoing my entire bow rail and will be using 4000.
UV 400 turned to dust after less than a year. If anyone knows what will reallly last, I would love to know.
390 - if Boatlife didn't work for you, the only explanation is that the proper prep work was not done. It works, and works well - if it didn't, it is not the fault of the product. We (the marina) and I (personally) have used these products for years and years without fail.
5200 is first and foremost a glue (regardless of what the packaging says) that also happens to seal things. It is very good at it's intended purpose. But it is the wrong tool for this job (simply sealing). Rubrails (and othe hardware) should not be glued - they should be sealed.
5200 is first and foremost a glue (regardless of what the packaging says) that also happens to seal things. It is very good at it's intended purpose. But it is the wrong tool for this job (simply sealing). Rubrails (and othe hardware) should not be glued - they should be sealed.
Well, Lazy, since you and the marina use BoatLife I guess there's just no reason for any of us to discuss this any further.
My prep work was fine, and I've used many different sealants/caulks without problem except for the BoatLife, however, again, since it's what you use, I must just be a moron.
My prep work was fine, and I've used many different sealants/caulks without problem except for the BoatLife, however, again, since it's what you use, I must just be a moron.
I'm not going down the road you are starting to go down. All I'm saying is that if it didn't work, a mistake was made somewhere else.
For what it's worth, BL is not the only stuff that is used at the marina. I've used other stuff, as well. But over the last few years I've (personally) settled on pretty much using the BL stuff. I'm not (and never did) saying it's the be all, end all of sealants. But I've acquired a comfort level with their products and know what to expect with them. I've used them long enough to trust them. They're easy to use and they get the job done done.
For what it's worth, BL is not the only stuff that is used at the marina. I've used other stuff, as well. But over the last few years I've (personally) settled on pretty much using the BL stuff. I'm not (and never did) saying it's the be all, end all of sealants. But I've acquired a comfort level with their products and know what to expect with them. I've used them long enough to trust them. They're easy to use and they get the job done done.
I'm not trying to go down any road. You are speaking as if you are the foremost expert on caulks and sealants, and that your word is law. I have used boatlife, I don't like boatlife, and I do like 3M. Period. You immediately said my prep work must not have been done properly. Obviously it's not possible that I got a bad tube of it, which if I did would still make me believe it's crap as I've never had a bad tube of a 3M product. We also do not agree on how rubrails should be attached and sealed. The original poster asked what he should use. You said boatlife, I said 3M. You don't like mine, I don't like yours, but that doesn't make you right. I suppose it doesn't make me right either, but I'm not claiming to know everything. I'm saying what works for me.
Hmmmm, the OP started this thread asking for advice. He got said advice and apparently 390 didn't like the advice and now wants to argue about it????
Someone once said, "Be careful what you ask for. You might just get it."
'nuff said.
Computer, I'm not trying to argue with the OP at all. I gave my advice as did everyone else. Other opinions were stated as if they were fact. They are not. They are opinions, as is mine. I stated why I didn't agree. I do not feel I was the first to draw blood. I was unaware that on a forum we all had to agree. Show me where I told someone they were wrong. I did not. I said I don't agree. The OP is free to do as he wishes. I can tell when like-minded people are ganging up on me, so I won't post further. All are free to do as they wish.
390 - you're reading too much into this. First of all, look at my first post - I also recommended 3M. I am not an expert on sealants and never claimed to be - but I do have quite a bit of experience to fall back on - certainly more than just an isolated, one time experience. Could you have gotten a bad tube? Sure, I'll give you that.
A friend of mine bought a brand new 260SD last year. The first time out he had a fuel problem. Sea Ray must be crap, too. No one should ever buy a SR.
A friend of mine bought a brand new 260SD last year. The first time out he had a fuel problem. Sea Ray must be crap, too. No one should ever buy a SR.
Hey, I don't want to do anything twice. If I use it once and it doesn't work, they only get one chance with me. Obviously having one system not work properly on an entire boat would make the whole thing crap, wouldn't it? That's a fair analogy. Looks like you're willing to go down that road now, aren't you?
Just thought it was a different way to explain the line of thinking that a one time experience shouldn't mean a product is no good. Heck, if I never used any product again that failed on me, because I assumed it was the product's fault and not mine, I might run out of products to buy. I've certainly made mistakes in the past and I'm sure I'll make more.
A question as I watch this thread: does the fact that a product has a high adhesion factor imply a complete seal? In other words just because you have to tear the boat apart to get an attatchment off does that mean it will never leak?
MM
MM
From an internet article:
[h=3][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What Sealant Do You Need?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Don Casey[/FONT][/h][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In every Marine Center you will find an array of different sealants and caulks sufficient to make your head spin. With so many choices, how do you know which one you need?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
It is not as difficult as you might think. Virtually all modern marine sealants fall into one of just three types, each with specific characteristics that make it the best choice for some jobs and unsuitable for others. Selecting the right sealant is essentially a matter of identifying the materials you are wanting to seal--specifically if any component is plastic--and of determining the likelihood of ever needing to separate these components. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If neither component is plastic and if you want to preserve your ability to disassemble the joint, use polysulfide.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Polysulfide is the most versatile of marine sealants. It is a synthetic rubber with excellent adhesive characteristics, and you can use it for almost everything. As a bedding compound it allows for movements associated with stress and temperature change, yet maintains the integrity of the seal by gripping tenaciously to both surfaces. It is also an excellent caulking compound since it can be sanded after it cures and it takes paint well.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
However, the solvents in polysulfide sealant attack some plastics, causing them to harden and split. Specifically, you must not use polysulfide to bed plastic windshields or plastic portlights--either acrylic (Plexiglas) or polycarbonate (Lexan). Don't use it to bed plastic deck fittings either, including plastic portlight frames. Plastic marine fittings are typically ABS or PVC, and polysulfide will attack both. If you know that the plastic fitting is made of epoxy, nylon, or Delrin, you can safely bed it with polysulfide. Below-the waterline through-hull fittings are in this group, but when there is any doubt, select an [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]alternative sealant.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Polysulfide adheres well to teak (a special primer improves adhesion), and is unaffected by harsh teak cleaners, making it the best choice for bedding teak rails and trim. The black caulking between the planks of a teak deck is invariably polysulfide. For this application, a two-part polysulfide gives the best results. Polysulfide is the slowest curing of the three sealant types, often taking a week or more to reach full cure. Because it will adhere to almost anything, polysulfide has a maddening propensity to get on everything, so neatness is called for in using this sealant. Polysulfide sealants will have polysulfide printed on the package, or sometimes Thiokol--the trademark for the polymer that is the main ingredient of all polysulfide sealants regardless of manufacturer.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you want the two components to be joined together permanently, use polyurethane.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Think of polyurethane as an adhesive rather than a sealant. Its grip is so tenacious that its bond should be thought of as permanent. If there seems to be any likelihood that you will need to separate the two parts later, do not use polyurethane to seal them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Polyurethane is the best sealant for the hull-to-deck joint. It is also a good choice for through-hull fittings and for rubrails and toerails, but not if rails are raw teak because some teak cleaners soften it. Like polysulfide, polyurethane should not be used on most plastics--acrylic, polycarbonate, PVC, or ABS.
The cure time for polyurethane is generally shorter than polysulfide, but still may be up to a week.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For bedding plastic components or where insulation is desirable, silicone is the default choice.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Calling silicone a sealant is something of a misrepresentation. It is more accurate to characterize it as a gasket material. If you accept silicone's adhesive abilities as temporary, you will find it is the best product for a number of sealing requirements. It is the only one of the marine sealant trio than can be safely used to bed plastic. It is an excellent insulator between dissimilar metals--use it when mounting stainless hardware to an aluminum spar. It is the perfect gasket material between components that must be periodically dismantled--beneath hatch slides, for example.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Silicone retains its resilience for decades and is unaffected by most chemicals, but it should not be used below the waterline. Because it depends upon mechanical compression to maintain its seal, silicone is not a good choice for sealing hardware on a cored deck. Exposed silicone is a magnet for dirt and repels paint, so never fillet with silicone, and don't use it on any surface you plan to paint.
Silicone sealants typically set in a few minutes and reach full cure in less than a day.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For an adhesive seal of plastic components, select a silicone/polyurethane hybrid.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An adhesive sealant maintains its seal even when stresses pull or pry the bedded components apart. The sealant stretches like the bellows joining the two sides of an accordion. This accordion effect can be especially useful for plastic portlight installations where the portlights are captured between an inner and outer frame. Although silicone has amazing elasticity, its lack of adhesion means any expansion of the space between the frames is likely to cause the seal to fail.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Either polysulfide or polyurethane would provide a more dependable seal, but polysulfide is certain to attack the plastic, and polyurethane prohibits any future disassembly. The answer to this dilemma is a hybrid sealant--part silicone and part polyurethane. Marketed by BoatLife as Life Seal, this mixture promises a longer-lasting seal for portlights and other plastic fittings where compression of the sealant cannot be assured.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For more information about sealing and bedding, consult Sailboat Hull & Deck Repair by Don Casey.[/FONT]
[h=3][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What Sealant Do You Need?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Don Casey[/FONT][/h][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In every Marine Center you will find an array of different sealants and caulks sufficient to make your head spin. With so many choices, how do you know which one you need?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
It is not as difficult as you might think. Virtually all modern marine sealants fall into one of just three types, each with specific characteristics that make it the best choice for some jobs and unsuitable for others. Selecting the right sealant is essentially a matter of identifying the materials you are wanting to seal--specifically if any component is plastic--and of determining the likelihood of ever needing to separate these components. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If neither component is plastic and if you want to preserve your ability to disassemble the joint, use polysulfide.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Polysulfide is the most versatile of marine sealants. It is a synthetic rubber with excellent adhesive characteristics, and you can use it for almost everything. As a bedding compound it allows for movements associated with stress and temperature change, yet maintains the integrity of the seal by gripping tenaciously to both surfaces. It is also an excellent caulking compound since it can be sanded after it cures and it takes paint well.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
However, the solvents in polysulfide sealant attack some plastics, causing them to harden and split. Specifically, you must not use polysulfide to bed plastic windshields or plastic portlights--either acrylic (Plexiglas) or polycarbonate (Lexan). Don't use it to bed plastic deck fittings either, including plastic portlight frames. Plastic marine fittings are typically ABS or PVC, and polysulfide will attack both. If you know that the plastic fitting is made of epoxy, nylon, or Delrin, you can safely bed it with polysulfide. Below-the waterline through-hull fittings are in this group, but when there is any doubt, select an [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]alternative sealant.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Polysulfide adheres well to teak (a special primer improves adhesion), and is unaffected by harsh teak cleaners, making it the best choice for bedding teak rails and trim. The black caulking between the planks of a teak deck is invariably polysulfide. For this application, a two-part polysulfide gives the best results. Polysulfide is the slowest curing of the three sealant types, often taking a week or more to reach full cure. Because it will adhere to almost anything, polysulfide has a maddening propensity to get on everything, so neatness is called for in using this sealant. Polysulfide sealants will have polysulfide printed on the package, or sometimes Thiokol--the trademark for the polymer that is the main ingredient of all polysulfide sealants regardless of manufacturer.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you want the two components to be joined together permanently, use polyurethane.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Think of polyurethane as an adhesive rather than a sealant. Its grip is so tenacious that its bond should be thought of as permanent. If there seems to be any likelihood that you will need to separate the two parts later, do not use polyurethane to seal them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Polyurethane is the best sealant for the hull-to-deck joint. It is also a good choice for through-hull fittings and for rubrails and toerails, but not if rails are raw teak because some teak cleaners soften it. Like polysulfide, polyurethane should not be used on most plastics--acrylic, polycarbonate, PVC, or ABS.
The cure time for polyurethane is generally shorter than polysulfide, but still may be up to a week.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For bedding plastic components or where insulation is desirable, silicone is the default choice.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Calling silicone a sealant is something of a misrepresentation. It is more accurate to characterize it as a gasket material. If you accept silicone's adhesive abilities as temporary, you will find it is the best product for a number of sealing requirements. It is the only one of the marine sealant trio than can be safely used to bed plastic. It is an excellent insulator between dissimilar metals--use it when mounting stainless hardware to an aluminum spar. It is the perfect gasket material between components that must be periodically dismantled--beneath hatch slides, for example.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Silicone retains its resilience for decades and is unaffected by most chemicals, but it should not be used below the waterline. Because it depends upon mechanical compression to maintain its seal, silicone is not a good choice for sealing hardware on a cored deck. Exposed silicone is a magnet for dirt and repels paint, so never fillet with silicone, and don't use it on any surface you plan to paint.
Silicone sealants typically set in a few minutes and reach full cure in less than a day.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For an adhesive seal of plastic components, select a silicone/polyurethane hybrid.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An adhesive sealant maintains its seal even when stresses pull or pry the bedded components apart. The sealant stretches like the bellows joining the two sides of an accordion. This accordion effect can be especially useful for plastic portlight installations where the portlights are captured between an inner and outer frame. Although silicone has amazing elasticity, its lack of adhesion means any expansion of the space between the frames is likely to cause the seal to fail.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Either polysulfide or polyurethane would provide a more dependable seal, but polysulfide is certain to attack the plastic, and polyurethane prohibits any future disassembly. The answer to this dilemma is a hybrid sealant--part silicone and part polyurethane. Marketed by BoatLife as Life Seal, this mixture promises a longer-lasting seal for portlights and other plastic fittings where compression of the sealant cannot be assured.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For more information about sealing and bedding, consult Sailboat Hull & Deck Repair by Don Casey.[/FONT]
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