ZF transmission failure of Coupling-48 dancer

Well ZF declined to give any help with the repair, that really sucks considering they put out this notice.

From ZF via Cummins National Accounts


ZF has informed their dealer's of the potential coupling failure, the coupling is consider a maintenance items it will not live forever.
ZF is taking care of any repair under 400 hr and / or 5 year fro DIS
 
All -
I have a 07 44'DA - 500 cummins - i have not seen any sign of the symptoms Jon refers to above, but I would think with similar engines the transmissions may be the same between the boats? Is this an issue I need to keep a close eye on or was there something in the 48 that used different components? Any thoughts much appreciated.
 
I got the estimate today from the local Cummins guy, $2,400 to replace the starboard coupler. About 1/2 of what I thought it was going to cost. I think I will have them check the valve lash and clean the heat exchangers and after coolers too.
 
I got the estimate today from the local Cummins guy, $2,400 to replace the starboard coupler. About 1/2 of what I thought it was going to cost. I think I will have them check the valve lash and clean the heat exchangers and after coolers too.
What it the life of a coupler? Are you convinced that the other one is not going to go next season?
 
I am not in a position to argue definitions with ZF, but I am a fan of asking pointed question to the extent that people squirm. If this is a maintenance part, where is the wear surface or what part of the vulcanized assembly has a service life? Is 400 hours reasonable.....I think not based on pleasure boat usage in our area, many of us who boat 12 months a year put 200+ hours/year on our boats. If the 400 hour interval is true, than we'd have to replace couplers every other year.........and what about a commercial operator who runs 12 hours a day 7 days a week for about 16 weeks from May thru September? That is 1300+ hours, so is he expected to change engine couplers every 3.4 weeks? Once a month? Really? My B.S. detector is screaming................as ZF tries to bully owners into paying the freight for an obviously poorly thought out design.

By comparison, I have 2 friends who run charter boats with vulcanized dampers on the couplers. One has 6CTA Cummins in a 36ft open fisherman, the other has 3208 Caterpillars in a 46 ft custom sportfisherman, both with ZF gears. The Cummins guy has 12,000 hours on his engines; the Cat guy as 16,000 hours on his. I keep up with them because they are kind of a longevity benchmark and both religiously maintain their boats. Neither has ever separated their engines and transmission and are on their original couplers. So coupler design can be done and done properly.
 
I am not in a position to argue definitions with ZF, but I am a fan of asking pointed question to the extent that people squirm. If this is a maintenance part, where is the wear surface or what part of the vulcanized assembly has a service life? Is 400 hours reasonable.....I think not based on pleasure boat usage in our area, many of us who boat 12 months a year put 200+ hours/year on our boats. If the 400 hour interval is true, than we'd have to replace couplers every other year.........and what about a commercial operator who runs 12 hours a day 7 days a week for about 16 weeks from May thru September? That is 1300+ hours, so is he expected to change engine couplers every 3.4 weeks? Once a month? Really? My B.S. detector is screaming................as ZF tries to bully owners into paying the freight for an obviously poorly thought out design.

By comparison, I have 2 friends who run charter boats with vulcanized dampers on the couplers. One has 6CTA Cummins in a 36ft open fisherman, the other has 3208 Caterpillars in a 46 ft custom sportfisherman, both with ZF gears. The Cummins guy has 12,000 hours on his engines; the Cat guy as 16,000 hours on his. I keep up with them because they are kind of a longevity benchmark and both religiously maintain their boats. Neither has ever separated their engines and transmission and are on their original couplers. So coupler design can be done and done properly.

I completely agree with you Frank and very good points. They said there is nothing they can do to help, disappointing. My concern is the other engine, most likely I will have the same issue.
 
I had a problem with a large company once, after spending $20k or so on two of their factory remanufactured products that failed to work properly. Now, mind you, these products failed to work properly after several remanufactured replacements. So, I wrote a polite and detailed letter to the President of said large company outlining the difficulties I had experienced with his remanufactured products and he agreed with my position. As a result, Mr. President of this large company decided to give me two brand new versions of the remanufactured product than I had been purchasing, at a cost to the large company of double what I had already paid.

The moral of the story:
#hit rolls downhill easier than you can push it uphill.

Start at the top with ZF and see what happens. Worst case is you get the same answer as you got at the bottom of the hill.
 
I had a problem with a large company once, after spending $20k or so on two of their factory remanufactured products that failed to work properly. Now, mind you, these products failed to work properly after several remanufactured replacements. So, I wrote a polite and detailed letter to the President of said large company outlining the difficulties I had experienced with his remanufactured products and he agreed with my position. As a result, Mr. President of this large company decided to give me two brand new versions of the remanufactured product than I had been purchasing, at a cost to the large company of double what I had already paid.

The moral of the story:
#hit rolls downhill easier than you can push it uphill.

Start at the top with ZF and see what happens. Worst case is you get the same answer as you got at the bottom of the hill.

Good point. I sent Stefan Sommer, CEO of ZF and email, let's see what happens.
 
Does this issue involve alignment?
 
Update:
Well contacting the CEO of ZF worked. They agreed to supply both starboard and port transmission couplers at no charge, these are the new style from a different manufacture. I responsible for the installation cost to pay, to say the least I am very pleased with the outcome. Thanks all for the recommendations.
 
Update on the transmission coupler. I was scheduled this week to have the Cummins guys at my dock to install the new couplers, due to weather it was postponed to next week. The Cummins techs questioned if there was enough room in front of the trans to disconnect and fit the new coupler in. To make a long story short I am having the boat hauled March 17th, they have to remove the cockpit decking to give the crane room to lift each engine, move it aft to get the new couplers in. The engine room hatch on the 48DA doesn't give good access to the engines, only the middle between the two engines. Its nice that you don't have to take the canvas off the aft section to have access to the engine room but if I still had the 420DA all that I would need to do is open the hatch. The good news is the labor hours for Cummins is less but I will have the added storage fees and fees to remove and install the decking. I know there was a thread recently about having to remove the decking to gain access on the 48DA, this is one example.
 
Good work. A PO'ed customer is not worth the cost of a couple of couplers, especially if the customer has a legitimate complaint that the company underlings failed to recognize and resolve.

Sorry to hear that you have to take the boat halfway apart to do the repair.
 
I appreciate your original comment to contact the top dog at ZF, it paid dividends! Now I am anxious to get her fixed.
 
The transmissions can be unbolted and moved back far enough in a 48DA to replace the couplers. We have done it twice here. I made a lifting aid for the marine when I had to replace a transmission just to avoid having to tear the deck apart. The lift aid straddles the engine/transmission and allows the mechanic to slide the transmission sideways to clear access to the coupler or to replace the transmission. I don't know if you have the time or inclination to debate the point further or to have a frame built, but here it is before paint. Note the ability to adjust each leg height and width and there is miniature trolley that fits on the cross beam that rolls either way:

transsupport.jpg
 
Wouldn't it be cheaper for Jon to rent and ship Frank's lifting aide?
 
Frank,
Great idea. The Cummins tech said he needs roughly 8 inches and he only has 6. For them to do this job out of the water and with the deck off it's over a $1,000 saving from Cummins compared to the original quote. With that said there is additional cost associated with the marina to remove the deck, if they can remove and install the deck for $1,000 its a wash. Any idea how many hours it would take to remove and put back teh deck?
The Cummins manager said they could try to do without removing the deck but there might additional labor cost. I planed on having the boat hauled anyway for wax, bottom paint touch up, and props changed.
 
The boat has to be out of the water for the coupler repair because the shaft has to be removed. With the coupler nut, shaft and front half of the coupler removed, there is room.

Removing the deck is a 2+ man job and it is seldom done without some damage to the deck. The deck is bolted in place so there has to be one man on top and one under the deck. All the cockpit seating and cabinetry that covers the bolts has to be removed, as do the appliances and sinks along with any associated plumbing and wiring. It can easily take a day (2 man days) plus a lifting device like a travel lift or forklift and operator to handle the deck once it is slung…….$1700-$2200 (est. ??)

By contrast, using the device pictured above, we had my bad transmission out and on the shop floor in 1 1-/2 hours……the boat was hauled out and blocked the night before. I was not in town when either 48DA coupler was repaired so I don't know how long either repair took on a boat like yours.

Good luck with it……….
 
Frank's description of removing the deck is right, but don't forget to add to that the cost of lifting the engines and repair any damage to the fiberglass. I would fabricate the lifting frame or beg and pay Frank dearly to rent his.
 
Frank you got me thinking, I just sent you a PM.
The port side (sink and cabinets) don't need to be removed but it's still a major job like you said.
 
$2,500-3,000 in labor only to completely remove the transmission from the boat without cutting anything and reinstall it.
 

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