Yet Another Starter Problem

[src]

Having starter issues with my '97 175BR (3.0L I4). At the end of the season last year, it began having trouble starting. Banging on the starter while turning the key would usually produce results, but it was getting worse. Seemed to be a classic case for a bad starter or solenoid.

This week I replaced the slave solenoid and the starter/starter solenoid. I've also cleaned the terminals and connections. The end result is the same - when I turn the ignition, I just get a click from the slave solenoid. No signs of life from the starter.

One twist to the story - I couldn't reach the nuts on the back of the slave solenoid, so I wasn't able to replace the complete assembly. I was able to pry the "fingers" holding the body to the back, and replaced the body, but the back plate is from the old solenoid. I could have pooched the system there for all I know, but I think it should be OK. In any event, I can't figure out how to reach the nuts on the back - I can barely touch them with my fingers - there's no way to get a wrench or pliers on them.

Any words of advice? Other than re-checking all the connections, and maybe another slave solenoid, what's my next step?

One more thing - the new starter has 4 terminals on the solenoid - 2 large and 2 small. The original starter only has 3. The large terminals are obvious, but I don't have any documentation that explain the small ones. I hooked the trigger wire to the one that seemed logical, but it's entirely possible that it was the wrong terminal. Also, what should I do with the other small terminal?

 

[dwna1a]

When my old starter on my Ford acted like this it was a sign that the starter bendix spring was going or gone. You may need a new starter. When you try to start the motor do you hear anything like a motor running? The spring pushes the starter spring forward to engage the flywheel

 

[src]

I did put in a new starter, and no, there is no sound from the starter itself, just the click of the slave solenoid.

 

[Jimmy Buoy]

Check your main ground wires attached to the engine block. If there is corrosion there it will reduce current flow to the starter motor itself and cause the symptoms you've described. This is from personal experience and 6 months of troubleshooting - lots of frustration!! I have twins so didn't have to buy replacement parts, just started swapping slave solenoids, ignition switches, starter motors, etc. with the other engine before discovering the ground wire issue. It didn't look corroded on the outside either!! Turn the battery off, remove wires from block, clean, coat with dielectric grease and reinstall.

I assume that you've checked the batteries themselves and they are up to snuff...

 

[Woody]

Check power delivered to starter solenoid when key is turned to start. No good, then go to slave and check...no good, go to ignition and check. Check connections along the way. Is the slave solenoid grounded through it's base and bolts? You didn't change that...how does it look...it's a 'connection'. Forget about the fourth post on the starter solenoid. If you didn't need it before you don't need it now...there should be letters stamped near those terminals, an S and probably an I or R...use the S.

 

[electricaldoctor]

If you are able to manually turn the starter a bit and it starts, then you have a "flat spot" on your starter and it needs to be overhauled or replaced. (whichever is more cost effective for you)

 

[sdarc]

If you are able to manually turn the starter a bit and it starts, then you have a "flat spot" on your starter and it needs to be overhauled or replaced. (whichever is more cost effective for you)

This^ and is the starter able to be shimmed? Possible worn ring gear? at this point just trying to cover all the bases.

 

[CliffA]

you may have a bad battery positive or negative cable....sometimes corrosion can be underneath the outer coating of the cable where you cannot see it but it is significant enough to cause reduced current flow....you may want to try using jumper cables to by pass the battery cables to see if the starter engages....if so you may have found the problem...you can also use a jumper wire to systematically bypass each component in the starting system to help identify the problem.....

cliff

 

[Woody]

Having starter issues with my '97 175BR (3.0L I4). At the end of the season last year, it began having trouble starting. Banging on the starter while turning the key would usually produce results, but it was getting worse. Seemed to be a classic case for a bad starter or solenoid.

This week I replaced the slave solenoid and the starter/starter solenoid. I've also cleaned the terminals and connections. The end result is the same - when I turn the ignition, I just get a click from the slave solenoid. No signs of life from the starter.

One twist to the story - I couldn't reach the nuts on the back of the slave solenoid, so I wasn't able to replace the complete assembly. I was able to pry the "fingers" holding the body to the back, and replaced the body, but the back plate is from the old solenoid. I could have pooched the system there for all I know, but I think it should be OK. In any event, I can't figure out how to reach the nuts on the back - I can barely touch them with my fingers - there's no way to get a wrench or pliers on them.

Any words of advice? Other than re-checking all the connections, and maybe another slave solenoid, what's my next step?

One more thing - the new starter has 4 terminals on the solenoid - 2 large and 2 small. The original starter only has 3. The large terminals are obvious, but I don't have any documentation that explain the small ones. I hooked the trigger wire to the one that seemed logical, but it's entirely possible that it was the wrong terminal. Also, what should I do with the other small terminal?

After re-reading this, this should be the first thing to check. If you're not on the correct terminal the starter solenoid won't receive power so nothing will work. The extra terminal there is only hot while the ignition switch is held in the start position and the coil is energized, it's to temporarily power maybe a fuel pump, coil, etc in some applications...let off on the ignition switch and that terminal is dead.

 

[src]

Latest status: Still dead

Today I pulled the engine ground wires and cleaned everything up.

When I jump the slave solenoid trigger terminal (from ignition) to 12V, I get some sparks on the terminal but nothing happens.

When I bridge the slave solenoid main terminals, nothing happens - no sparks.

When I bridge the starter solenoid main terminals, it spins but doesn't kick out.

I put the original slave solenoid back in, same results.

I looked at the terminals on the starter, but couldn't see any labels (S, I or R) anywhere. I haven't moved the trigger wire to the other terminal yet.

Just to clarify, I _was_ able to start the engine a few days earlier, but after a few short runs it wouldn't start anymore (click click). That's when I started replacing parts.

 

[dwna1a]

First, if it gets to the point you give up. Take it to Ben at Richmond SeaRay, he has a great shop. Second, how old is the battery? Is it strong enough to pull the load?

 

[src]

The battery is less than a year old, and has been on a trickle charger (NOCO Genius 10A on-board) when not in use. I think it's in pretty good condition.

 

[dwna1a]

It still screams bad starter. If you have good power to the motor and a good ground that just leaves the starter itself. In one of your posts you said you heard the starter gear running but not engage the flywheel. That says to me the spring is bad. I've had parts fail strength out of the box, I replaced a starter three times many years back, last year I replaced rear brakes on my truck five times before they got a set that wasn't destroying the drums

 

[Woody]

You have proved the starter will run. Your ignition circuit should be checked from ignition thru to starter solenoid. You should have battery voltage at the ignition switch at the slave relay and starter solenoid. Setting aside the possibility that it's wired wrong believe it or not this could still be something as simple as a faulty ignition switch. You need to have power and enough of it to activate the starter solenoid that's why I suggest you verify it at the starter. If you have it there the problem will be in the starter/solenoid unit somewhere. If you don't have it the problem has to be in an upstream component including possibly the switch itself. Don't give up, you almost got it.

 

[Woody]

It still screams bad starter. If you have good power to the motor and a good ground that just leaves the starter itself. In one of your posts you said you heard the starter gear running but not engage the flywheel. That says to me the spring is bad. I've had parts fail strength out of the box, I replaced a starter three times many years back, last year I replaced rear brakes on my truck five times before they got a set that wasn't destroying the drums

The large battery power wire is always hot on the starter. When he jumped it and the motor ran he proved the starter motor was good. What he doesn't have is a functioning ignition circuit to activate the solenoid which completes the starting circuit and kicks out the gear to the flywheel.

 

[src]

I just wanted to wrap this up. I finally got a chance to go through the system, testing continuity and resistance along the way. Everything checked out OK, so I moved the trigger wire on the starter to the 4th terminal (original starter had 3, new one had 4, originally put the trigger on the position that matched the first starter). Fired right up, no trouble at all.

Now that I've been through it all, I believe that the original slave solenoid was OK, and that the problem was on the starter solenoid or the starter itself. I'll probably try to rebuild the original so I have a spare ready.

Thanks for all the advice. Now I can complete my pre-season maintenance and get her back on the water where she belongs.

 

[dwna1a]

Thank you for the update....I was wondering how it turned out