Which gasser is best

[timjet]

Hi Guys,

I’ve going through quite an experience in the purchase of a Cummins diesel powered 35’ Carver aft cabin. Arrived at survey and neither engine would start. Fwd AC unit wouldn’t work, bad fuel, and a couple of other minor issues. We thought the bad fuel was the cause of the engines not starting, but it has turned out there are other issues with the port engine. The owner has agreed to fix everything, but just yesterday the mechanic has found another problem with the port engine driven fuel pump. It will take 3 weeks to get the part. Most of the problems seem to have be created by neglect and non use. I’ve told the owner I will not buy this boat without a engine survey by Cummins paid by the seller. He has not agreed to this yet, but my broker said he probably will. Cummins as supported by others have stated that if they OK the engines, I can take it to the bank. In the mean time since our contract has expired, I am looking at other boats.
I have learned a couple of valuable lessons from this experience.
* Diesel engines when souped up with tubo chargers and after coolers can be temperamental. The tubo can spin as high as 120,000 rpm.
* Diesel engines are expensive to repair. Ex: the fuel S/O solenoid for the port engine was $425.
* Diesel mechanics are expensive; the 1000 hr service on a pair of Cummins 6B’s runs $2400 if no issues are found.

A couple of guys I’ve been in contact with have suggested I look at gas boats. I did not consider gas for a couple of reasons, but I’m learning that I may have been premature in not considering gas.
Initially I thought diesels were more reliable, but I’m finding out that may not be so.
Gas are much cheaper to repair and parts are a lot cheaper.
Fuel economy is better with diesels, but I’m finding out not that much better. Perhaps less than 10%.
Safety; diesels hands down are safer, but much more gassers are out their so perhaps with the proper precautions this can be managed. My biggest concern with gas is running a gas powered genset all night for AC with the possibility of CO2 entering the cabin. I know all boats have a CO2 detector, but still.

Anyway I know virtually nothing about gassers. I am looking for a aft cabin motor yacht in the 34 to 38 ft range and this seems like a good match for a gasser. Can someone enlighten me on the different makes of gas engines typically seen in this size boat and perhaps some recommendations as to which engines to stay away from and which should be highly considered.

I have not completely given up on the diesel powered Carver, but I have some time to decide and I want to use this time wisely.

Thanks guys,
Tim

 

[rondds]

Ah, the gas vs. diesel argument! The context of your question is different that what usually comes up but the arguments are the same. You make all valid points and counterpoints. From my experience and reading, there's a magic weight number that is somewhere around 17K lbs where a gas powered boat will struggle. If you don't mind running slower than most other boats around you and you don't mind the extra consumption, go with gas. People talk abt resale value, but you'll be buying lower and selling lower down the road. Gas engines have a shorter lifespan (~1000 hours) but to get to that point, must be impeccably maintained. Diesel is more forgiving and can go probably more than twice those hours. Also, it's nice to not have to worry abt CO problems and leaking fuel lines that go BOOM.

I think your experience with this one Carver is NOT indicative of what you'll typically find. If you have the resources, keep searching for a diesel powered model OR negotiate the price of the one you looked at keeping in mind the coin required to get running well.

 

[sbw1]

8.1 Crusader engines are very robust and have no trouble pushing a 20,000 pound boat. If you go with gas, try to find a boat with Crusaders.

 

[Pseudomind]

...Gas engines have a shorter lifespan (~1000 hours) but to get to that point, must be impeccably maintained...

Well I have heard the 1,000 hours for poorly maintained or possibly much WOT operation (???), but here at my marina there are a few with over 2,000 hours one is a 1988 38 foot Carver, with 7.4's. I have heard that if properly maintained 2000 hours and above is not unusual.

Any ideas where this 1000 hour figure came from as I have heard it mentioned before also from time to time.

I would guess there are probably some gasoline engine boat users here with over a 1,000 hours?

:thumbsup:

 

[rondds]

I'd tend to err on the side of caution - I've heard stories of gassers with more than 1200 hours on the engines but never seen one in person. That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that it's more the exception than the rule.

 

[sbw1]

I sold a 26 foot SR with 2,600 hours on it. Paid 19,000 for it new and it sold for around 15,500 seven years later. Maintenance and how you operate a boat is everything.

 

[Two Peas]

I sold a 26 foot SR with 2,600 hours on it. Paid 19,000 for it new and it sold for around 15,500 seven years later. Maintenance and how you operate a boat is everything.

Wow, that is a lot of boating. 450 hours a year for 6 years!

 

[sbw1]

It was really 7 years and yes....a lot of boating. We went for a ride almost every night after dinner and used it every week end pretty much all day Sat/Sunday. It was our first new boat and we really got a kick out it.

A knowledgable friend told me to always cruise the 350s at 3050 RPMs or lower and they would never wear out (an exaggeration I'm sure). I went through a lot of u-joints, bellows, and bearings but the engine was fine when the boat was sold.

 

[StressAweigh]

My dock neighbor has a 1990 Sea Ray 300 it has twin 350cid engine they over 1400hrs on them they have never been apart He does take very good care of them and he never runs them hard In fact I don't think they have ever been over 3500rpm I can say one thing they run like a champ

 

[timjet]

Thanks guys for your input.
I have talked to my broker this morning and he has suggested to consider this about gas.
A gas powered boat will allow you to buy much newer for the same money.

Gas is more expensive and the boat will get less mileage, however the newer fuel injected gas engines have increased fuel economy considerably especially those made since the mid 90's.

A boat hull design has more to do with fuel economy than weight. For example a 42 Chris Craft weighing in at 32000 lbs gets better fuel economy and runs faster that a 40' Carver weighing 28000 lbs. The difference - hull design.

1000-1200 hrs is a good estimate to gauge gas engine life on an engine you have no idea how it was run or maintained. Most gas engines fail not because they wear out but rather because salt water got into the engine for failure to maintain the risers.

My broker seems pretty knowledgeable.
Tim

 

[rondds]

I smell another thread and or poll...
What's the highest hour meter reading you've seen or know of on a healthy gasoline marine engine?

 

[tobnpr]

First, any boat that's neglected- as you said this one has been- is going to have problems. Doesn't matter if it's gas or diesel, only that the diesel may cost more to "bring back".

Second- how are you going to use the boat? Is it going to be a dock queen, or a quick trip down the ICW once in a while? Then gas might work for you, as long as you can live with maybe a 15 mph cruise speed, very limited range, and horrendous fuel consumption.

Topic has been discussed here many times before in general. Keep in mind that some ACMY's would be VERY difficult to repower- so keep in mind that with a gasser, those engines are gonna need to come out (perhaps sooner rather than later, depending on what you might end up with) and how big a task is that going to be?

Personally, if you like the Carver, and the owner is willing to do whatever it takes-on his dime- to have Cummins certify the engines- I think it would be crazy to go any other way (barring any other issues at survey). You get the boat you wanted, at the price you were willing to pay, with thousands $$ in "free" engine work and a clean bill of health from Cummins. What more could you ask for?

 

[my3sons]

wow! alot of good points brought up in this thread about gas vs diesel instead of the same old same old.
The boat that is next to mine at the marina is a 355 carver ac, it has 7.4 crusaders, it's a '98 and many hours. Runs great but he doesn't usually venture far and hardly ever runs it at plane. He does all his own maint. and knows what he's doing...It'll probably last forever.
If you're going to be doing a lot of cruising, and don't want to take forever to get there though, I think that's a different story.
I personally like diesel for this application, but I'm pretty much a diesel guy anyway, I have been working with them my entire life 8-10 hrs or more a day in the drilling/construction fields, (but never in a boat) I can work on them and actually prefer to over gas.
The point I'm trying to make is you mention the cost of working on diesels, and they are more, If that's a problem, then maybe gas is good for you.
I agree with TOBPR, If they can make you comfortable and you can get the curent owner to foot the bill or most of it,
All you have to do after that is change your filters, make sure your fuel is clean and dry, and take care of any minor issues before they become any big expensive ones.
Ron mentioned a poll, here's one...how many diesel owners here wish they would have bought gassers?
There may be more than I suspect...but I doubt it
Good Luck and keep us posted

 

[rondds]

Here's one that won't get too many votes - How many former gas boaters who now own diesel want to go back to gas!!

 

[Carver370]

I own a 37 Carver with 454 Crusaders in it. Knock on wood 680 hours have gone by without a hiccup. I run the boat at 3300 RPM which brings me 22/23 MPH cruise verified by gps. I am burning right under 3/4 gal per mile (flowscan). I would say I wouldn't get any larger than my boat with Gas motors but I am impressed every time I take the boat out how well it runs and I have run the diesel version of the same model.

I have run 8 different 355/356 boats all with gas engines, diesel in that boat was actually an odd duck. I have never felt one of those boats to be underpowered or the 405/406 which is the replacement for my boat built on the same hull. I do feel however that the Crusader boats have always run slightly better than the merc boats.

You will find that most people who think the gas engines aren't enough for these boats have never owned one and its all hearsay. Now, treading very lightly here since this is a Sea Ray board.... The Sea Ray aft cabins that I have run with gas engines have been awful and always felt like they were dragging along in the water, my experience was with a gas 420 AC and a 380 AC.

Take a look in any harbor on the Great Lakes, you will have a very hard time finding any aft cabin under 40' that is diesel powered. There will be a TON of gas boats though!

As far as the hour debate on gas motors, a good friend of mine just sold his 1993 31 Tiara with 1450 hours on it and they checked out perfectly. I also have a buddy of mine who owns a 1999 33 Amberjack with 2900 hours on it and they checked out like new when we did a compression check. It all depends how they were taken care of and ran the majority of the time.

 

[sbw1]

Take a look in any harbor on the Great Lakes, you will have a very hard time finding any aft cabin under 40' that is diesel powered. There will be a TON of gas boats though!

As far as the hour debate on gas motors, a good friend of mine just sold his 1993 31 Tiara with 1450 hours on it and they checked out perfectly. I also have a buddy of mine who owns a 1999 33 Amberjack with 2900 hours on it and they checked out like new when we did a compression check. It all depends how they were taken care of and ran the majority of the time.

This is pretty consistent with what I have observed over the years. We cruised with the owner of an old Silverton last year. It's maybe a 91. Big boat at 37 feet with a flybridge. 454s and still rock solid. He is slower than us at 21 knots and can't do the long runs because he needs fuel every 125 miles. Still a big comfortable boat. Your also spot on about the various hulls, speed and fuel consumption. My 37 SR was about 6,000 pounds lighter than the current boat. It was faster at cruise but was a pig on fuel. We got about .55-.65 mpg and range was ok but not great. The Tiara is a little slower at 75% cruise but gets about .90 mpg. It has a flater aft but a finer entry than the SR. Better ride and fuel economy is the result. We make the 250 mile run from Harbor Springs to home in one day easily with one fuel stop about half way. We have lots of fuel left over to putz around with for several week ends that follow that trip.

 

[my3sons]

Take a look in any harbor on the Great Lakes, you will have a very hard time finding any aft cabin under 40' that is diesel powered. There will be a TON of gas boats though!quote]

Won't argue that. Take a look around here and you will have a hard time finding anything under 42' that is diesel.
We are in the largest marina in the area..1000 slips and there is no diesel at the fuel dock. It's a great Lakes thing.
Tough to sell diesel boats when you have to convince a buyer he will be ahead when he has to burn off 30 gallons of fuel just to get home from buying fuel.
and hard to justify spending money to put in a new fuel tank and pump and all the EPA crap if there are no diesel boats.
But the OP is in Tampa...different story
But I hear you.

 

[Boatdave]

My previous boat was a 1996 Carver 355 Aft Cabin with the Crusaders. Would not be afraid of the gassers in this boat. She got up with little effort and ran great. You could back it down to 3100-3200 and a nice easy ride. I had 480 hours
on mine and never had a issue. Those years had the Kohler 6.5 CZ generator which are huge piles. I had to replace mine
after 700 hours and according to my marina I was doing great to get that many out of it.

 

[Carver370]

Those years had the Kohler 6.5 CZ generator which are huge piles. I had to replace mine
after 700 hours and according to my marina I was doing great to get that many out of it.

I am curious what your symptoms were? You can PM me as to not hijack this thread but I am having some issues with mine.

I haven't had a hard time convincing people about the gas vs. diesel on these boats after they take a ride on it. At least in my area the Aft Cabins are making a huge comeback as peoples needs for a boat are changing and not really taking their boats very far away from home port anymore.

 

[jrirvine1]

Joining the Diesel club is like staying at the Hotel California. Once you check in, you never leave.

Here's one that won't get too many votes - How many former gas boaters who now own diesel want to go back to gas!!