What would you do?

[BobbyB26]

I've got an 87 SeaRay 265 with a 454 and an Alpha 1 drive. This past summer I blew the motor and am looking at repowering. I've been delaying the repower b/c of economy and other things and now that boating season is dying down, I'm going to take care of putting a new outdrive on at the same time as the Alpha1 should have never been mated with that motor.

Here's my debates:

1. On the motor: rebuild the 454 or go to a new 383 stroker? Upsides- the 383 is lighter, more hp and has better torque. Downside- it'll cost about 2K over the rebuilt 454 to pull that trigger.
2. On the leg: I started out set on the Bravo 3, but have recently talked to a few that recommended the Bravo 2 for a boat as heavy as mine. She's a heavy boat....I'm over 10K pulling away from the dock. I'm looking for cruising speeds around 28-30, and they are saying the B2 is a better fit for my sitch.

Thanks in advance for you thoughts.

 

[fc3]

Any more torque than what you have will grind the bottom end of the Alpha to bits. The Alpha is, at best, marginal with what you have.

To replace with any Bravo, you have to replace everything. Transom plates, gimbals, trim cylinders. Everything. It's an expensive job for an old boat. Based on the numbers, fix what you have. If you want more, then trade-up. That's probably the most cost effective strategy in the long term.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[Lazy Daze]

Any more torque than what you have will grind the bottom end of the Alpha to bits. The Alpha is, at best, marginal with what you have.

To replace with any Bravo, you have to replace everything. Transom plates, gimbals, trim cylinders. Everything. It's an expensive job for an old boat. Based on the numbers, fix what you have. If you want more, then trade-up. That's probably the most cost effective strategy in the long term.

Best regards,
Frank

And that's not even the newest generation Alpha on there. I agree that fixing what you have is the best option.

Now, if you're comfortable cutting a bigger hole in your transom for the Bravo and can do all of the work yourself, you may be able to scrounge up used and reman pieces here and there... but what a pain that'll be. Otherwise, like Frank said, it's going to be an expensive venture on a 23 year old boat. As far as resale goes, it's not going to add anywhere near what you put into it.

 

[KayKook]

What would you do?

Cut your losses, and sell the boat as is. Unless you are emotionally attached to it.
Expensive re-fit for such an old boat.

 

[Quint4]

Rebuild the motor and enjoy the boat. The 454 is a good match......if the alpha goes south slap an SEI on there.

 

[BarryCF]

Rebuild the motor and enjoy the boat. The 454 is a good match......if the alpha goes south slap an SEI on there.

I agree. Why on earth would you drop down from a 454 to a 383? If you want more power, well, there is no substitute for cubic inches. The 383 is great if you have a 350 set up to start with. You can build a 383 to yield good power equal to a stock 454. You can build a 454 to put out more power than a 383. Rebuild the 454. If you want more power, add it during the rebuild. If you really love the boat, swap drives, otherwise, keep what you have and replace it when it breaks.

Personally, I like the mid 80's model Sea Ray's. If the hull is good (no rot) and you like the boat sizewise, and are not interested in it as an investment (as if a boat is a good investment), fix it the way you want it. I'd much prefer the 80's to the newer, given equal condition.

 

[sprink56]

I agree. Why on earth would you drop down from a 454 to a 383? If you want more power, well, there is no substitute for cubic inches. The 383 is great if you have a 350 set up to start with. You can build a 383 to yield good power equal to a stock 454. You can build a 454 to put out more power than a 383. Rebuild the 454. If you want more power, add it during the rebuild. If you really love the boat, swap drives, otherwise, keep what you have and replace it when it breaks.

Personally, I like the mid 80's model Sea Ray's. If the hull is good (no rot) and you like the boat sizewise, and are not interested in it as an investment (as if a boat is a good investment), fix it the way you want it. I'd much prefer the 80's to the newer, given equal condition.

+1 on this:thumbsup:

Think about going through your 454 and do a mild cam/intake/carb upgrade in the process. Put the money you save towards a reserve for the replacement leg. If you push the fresh power on an already marginal Alpha it will break...just be prepared for it.

My brother faces the same thing in his 22' Formula with a hot 5.7 on a Gen I MR1. He has another Alpha in storage ready for bolt up when it breaks. Alphas are reasonably cheap and there are millions of them around.

 

[Captain Crispy]

Rebuild the 454, or drop in a new short block. I believe you can upgrade your drive to Alpha Gen 2 just by bolting it on. SEI would be the place to get that.

 

[keokie]

The 454 is a better motor for your set up than a 383.

The Alpha is not enough drive to hold up to a 454.

Converting to a Bravo does not require a different cutout (you do have to drill 2 new holes).

Either a BII or BIII alone would improve performance a bit even with the same motor.

Going from an Alpha to Bravo is about 7-8K. Subtract what it would cost to fix the Alpha, and that is your cost difference.

 

[BobbyB26]

Thanks for all the replies.

I know what some of you are saying about keeping the Alpha or trading up, and have thought long and hard about just that, but here's the pickle I'm in. Suppose I stay with the 454 and look at a few things to do to bump the power...this is all good. But my problem still lies with the Alpha. I've always had issues with getting up on step with this drive...just not enough wheel in the water and that's why I'm looking at the B2.

Yep, 7-8K is about right for the parts. I'll do all the work myself so I can keep the cost to right around there. The only thing I'm not prepared for is the alignment of the motor and outdrive...I'll most likely pay to have someone do that for me. To me, it doesn't pencil to upgrade. Put 8k into this one that I've got set up well vs having to set up another upgraded boat?? Just had a survey done on the hull and it's in great shape, so all things said, I'm still leaning towards the B2.

 

[sprink56]

Thanks for all the replies.

I know what some of you are saying about keeping the Alpha or trading up, and have thought long and hard about just that, but here's the pickle I'm in. Suppose I stay with the 454 and look at a few things to do to bump the power...this is all good. But my problem still lies with the Alpha. I've always had issues with getting up on step with this drive...just not enough wheel in the water and that's why I'm looking at the B2.

Yep, 7-8K is about right for the parts. I'll do all the work myself so I can keep the cost to right around there. The only thing I'm not prepared for is the alignment of the motor and outdrive...I'll most likely pay to have someone do that for me. To me, it doesn't pencil to upgrade. Put 8k into this one that I've got set up well vs having to set up another upgraded boat?? Just had a survey done on the hull and it's in great shape, so all things said, I'm still leaning towards the B2.

One thing that you might consider is keeping your eyes and ears open for a complete low hour near new take out 8.1./BII. We see that in this market ocassionally where a guy will by a new Fountain or similar go fast with base power and decide he wants to re-power. I have seen these units go for less than $10K and in these times everything is negotiable. Keep an eye on E-Bay and Craigslist in the major boat markets like Florida and Michigan.

If I run accross anything interesting I'll PM you.

 

[BobbyB26]

One thing that you might consider is keeping your eyes and ears open for a complete low hour near new take out 8.1./BII. We see that in this market ocassionally where a guy will by a new Fountain or similar go fast with base power and decide he wants to re-power. I have seen these units go for less than $10K and in these times everything is negotiable. Keep an eye on E-Bay and Craigslist in the major boat markets like Florida and Michigan.

If I run accross anything interesting I'll PM you.

Thanks. That power plant would have no probs gettin her up on step:wow:

 

[garryowen]

Thanks for all the replies.

I know what some of you are saying about keeping the Alpha or trading up, and have thought long and hard about just that, but here's the pickle I'm in. Suppose I stay with the 454 and look at a few things to do to bump the power...this is all good. But my problem still lies with the Alpha. I've always had issues with getting up on step with this drive...just not enough wheel in the water and that's why I'm looking at the B2.

Yep, 7-8K is about right for the parts. I'll do all the work myself so I can keep the cost to right around there. The only thing I'm not prepared for is the alignment of the motor and outdrive...I'll most likely pay to have someone do that for me. To me, it doesn't pencil to upgrade. Put 8k into this one that I've got set up well vs having to set up another upgraded boat?? Just had a survey done on the hull and it's in great shape, so all things said, I'm still leaning towards the B2.

bobby; about half of what you have been told above just isn't true.
sei wont build or knowingly warrenty a alpha drive used behind a 300+motor. if your alpha is factory with your motor then it is a rare heavy duty geared drive alpha and is your only chance of standing up to the 454. they came in 1:32 to 1 and 1:50 to 1 ratio. these were the only gear sets made as the gear teeth were larger.
the b3 will be a much better fit and will move a lot more water than a b2. also was designed for this (not sure why someone would recommend the b2)
the bravo transom assembly is a direct BOLT IN. NO CHANGES. they use the same cut out. you will need to drill to more 5/8" holes. that's it. youo can buy the alignment bar and do it your self. if you can do the rest then this is a snap.

you figures aren't far off what it just cost us to swap our alpha 1 to a b3.

the 383 is a ok hot rod engine but stick with the 454. there a proven down and dirty torque monster that stand up to lug and tug all day.

this is a realy simple swap and as your pulling motor any way- your half way there.
the only regret gerry and i have in doing this swap, is we didn't do it when we broke our first drive.




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[garryowen]

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hope this helps you

 

[Lazy Daze]

Keokie & Gary,

Thanks for the correction -- it sounds like you guys have "been there and done that" on the drive swap. That's interesting to know the transom hole is the same. I've seen drives and transom plates off many times - both Alpha and Bravo. I guess it just always appeared that the Bravo hole was bigger. Learn something new every day!

Would it also be the same going from an early Alpha-series to a Bravo?

PS: The 454's were mated to an Alpha many times on the older Pachanga's - I can't comment on the gear ratio's - but I can say that it was not uncommon for the Alpha to not last too long. 'Course, maybe that was, at least in part, due to the way the P's were driven.

 

[garryowen]

PS: The 454's were mated to an Alpha many times on the older Pachanga's - I can't comment on the gear ratio's - but I can say that it was not uncommon for the Alpha to not last too long.

dennis;after blowing up 4 a-1's i can only agree 100%. yes all alpha's and bravos the later omc's and volvo's use the same cut out. even back to the r's

gary

 

[BobbyB26]

sei wont build or knowingly warrenty a alpha drive used behind a 300+motor. if your alpha is factory with your motor then it is a rare heavy duty geared drive alpha and is your only chance of standing up to the 454. they came in 1:32 to 1 and 1:50 to 1 ratio. these were the only gear sets made as the gear teeth were larger.

Yep, my drive was origonally a 454 with the A1. A PO must have had issues because that drive had been replaced at least once, and somewhere along the line a PO had the heavier gears put in the top end only.....NOT the lower end also....not sure why??? All of these reasons are why I want to upgrade now, and since it's still working I can sell the A1 on Craigslist...along with all the other stuff I take off when upgrading to the B2 or B3.

the b3 will be a much better fit and will move a lot more water than a b2. also was designed for this (not sure why someone would recommend the b2)

I was told that the B2 would give me just as good a hole shot and didn't need to spend the extra $ on the B3 and props since I wasn't looking for speeds over 40. I've had more than one place tell me this same thing, so I'd be interested in discussing this more.

the bravo transom assembly is a direct BOLT IN. NO CHANGES. they use the same cut out. you will need to drill to more 5/8" holes. that's it. youo can buy the alignment bar and do it your self. if you can do the rest then this is a snap.

Yeah, I already knew that the transom hole was the same size. I've never felt like I could handle the alignment part....now you've got me thinking again. Fear of the unknown maybe? I take it this is something you did yourself? If so, where did you get your "alignment bar" and how did you learn what to do?

the 383 is a ok hot rod engine but stick with the 454. there a proven down and dirty torque monster that stand up to lug and tug all day.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards keeping the 454 unless someone can talk me out of it.

this is a realy simple swap and as your pulling motor any way- your half way there.
the only regret gerry and i have in doing this swap, is we didn't do it when we broke our first drive.

Same thing I was thinking. I don't want to be boating and the whole time wondering when I'm going to push it too hard. Things like that nag at me bad and I find myself distacted from having the good time that I'm supposed to be having when out on the boat.
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If I've got ?'s, can I get ahold of you?

B

 

[garryowen]

bobby; i got my alignment bar from e-bay 4 years ago.

after looking we went with the b-3 for the fuel economy and handling. had we stayed with the b2 we could have saved as we have a good selection of 4 blade and ss props we could have used. i just didn't want to go b2 and always wonder what the b3 would do. almost all the newer cruisers we looked at run a b3 so it just seemed the best+i have a friend that runs a volvo dule-prop and it had always impressed me
realy doesn't matter if you use b2 or b3. the tran ass.,sea water pump, shift plate, coupler and coupler housing will all be the same.
i was able to use all factory b1 stuff for the proper year for mine, so anyone can look up and get parts for any part. nothing is cobbled or jury rigged to get by

i tried to take a lot of pics and if i can answer any questions pm or tack on and will answer or if i cant will try to get to source that can.here is pic of some of the stuff we bought

 

[BarryCF]

Reading through since my first comment, it sounds like you are looking in the right direction. Rebuild the 454 and upgrade the drive. If it were me, I would go with the B3 over the 2. There is not that much difference in price, and on a heavy boat with a lot of power I believe the twin prop set up to be advantageous.

I am still trying to decide which direction to take with my boat. If the economy picks up (need more $), I would go the B3 route and either a nice 383 or BB. If the economy doesn't change, I'll rebuild to 383, stick with the alpha for the time being, and be careful :lol: with power application.