What would you do - prop shaft breaks, drops, engine room is flooding

[PlayDate]

This:
https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=63791

Did you read the reviews? Seems like it works sometimes and not other times.

 

[Chip S]

What? U'r kidding right?

When I owned my inboard powered boat I had the transmission rebuilt. The person who installed the rebuilt transmission forgot to tighten the packing nut. When we took it out for the shakedown cruise I could tell something was wrong because the bilge pump kept coming on. We opened the hatch and saw the water coming in. The bilge pump was keeping up with the water but obviously we shut the engine down and tightened the packing nut. I know from firsthand experience that an 1100 gph bilge pump can keep up with the water coming in if the shaft is still in place.

I'm not an expert on broken shafts since I've never had a shaft break on me. It's my understanding, though, that shafts typically break from rotational forces, i. e. the propeller stops spinning and the shaft coupler (engine/transmission) continues to spin. I don't think shafts typically break from longitudinal forces since I believe the shaft would pull out of the coupler before it would break. I could be wrong, but that's my understanding. If the shaft breaks from rotational forces the shaft anode will not be affected and will be able to prevent the shaft from pulling out of the boat if the shaft anode is close enough to the strut.

 

[yobub]

Just to clarify my previous comment about getting help on the way: Help doesn't only have to come from the USCG. I know if I was on the water and heard a call from a boat who had struck something and was asking for help, I'd head their way and stand by in case they needed assistance. I'm sure most of you would as well.

I think any boater who is in a difficult situation would be happy to have a neighbor nearby in case things really go south.

 

[Alex F]

Just to clarify my previous comment about getting help on the way: Help doesn't only have to come from the USCG. I know if I was on the water and heard a call from a boat who had struck something and was asking for help, I'd head their way and stand by in case they needed assistance. I'm sure most of you would as well.

I think any boater who is in a difficult situation would be happy to have a neighbor nearby in case things really go south.

You're right and it goes without saying. But, it all depends on a location. When in congested area surrounded by boaters and towing providers, your chances are greatly increased. Those that take extensive cruises, which includes offshore, know that it gets very different out there.

 

[ttmott]

When I owned my inboard powered boat I had the transmission rebuilt. The person who installed the rebuilt transmission forgot to tighten the packing nut. When we took it out for the shakedown cruise I could tell something was wrong because the bilge pump kept coming on. We opened the hatch and saw the water coming in. The bilge pump was keeping up with the water but obviously we shut the engine down and tightened the packing nut. I know from firsthand experience that an 1100 gph bilge pump can keep up with the water coming in if the shaft is still in place.

I'm not an expert on broken shafts since I've never had a shaft break on me. It's my understanding, though, that shafts typically break from rotational forces, i. e. the propeller stops spinning and the shaft coupler (engine/transmission) continues to spin. I don't think shafts typically break from longitudinal forces since I believe the shaft would pull out of the coupler before it would break. I could be wrong, but that's my understanding. If the shaft breaks from rotational forces the shaft anode will not be affected and will be able to prevent the shaft from pulling out of the boat if the shaft anode is close enough to the strut.

Marine designers size shafts and select shaft material for the rotational stresses then usually add a safety factor between 2:1 to 4:1. Ski boats would be more like 2:1 and boats like Nordhavn would be 4:1... So shafts typically do not fail due to the rotational loads. I think you will find that shafts more commonly fail due to improper alignment or imbalance and that condition applying lateral and bending loads on the shaft which will fatigue and crack the shaft. There are also those rare cases of failure due to an artifact in shaft machining, mechanical damage to the shaft, or forging defect in the metallic structure. Coupling and propeller installations on a shaft are just as critical as engine alignment; in fact if you look through posts the last couple of days you will find that @cod had a shaft failure coming back from the Bahamas that looks to be due to improper installation of the propeller. So, I think it's unreasonable to install zincs' on a shaft for a safety backup to a shaft failure; if things are installed correctly and maintained correctly shaft failures are extremely rare let alone one that would fall out of a boat....

 

[electricaldoctor]

http://stayafloat.ca/

 

[Creekwood]

Did you read the reviews? Seems like it works sometimes and not other times.

No I did not. I was just relaying that I recalled there being something used by salvage guys that was talked about in a thread years ago. I suspect the larger the hole the less likely it will work. Better than trying nothing though and might really be useful to have if you had to stop a leak.

I expect if a shaft log hole (1.5 to 2.5" on most of our boats) was the leak, if it didn’t stay in, using a rag covered with that sticky gunk on it would hold. The problem with using a wooden plug or a plastic plug is that the access is going to be really awkward to align a plug and pound it in. I think that the benefit of a sticky goop (with or without a rag) is that, if you can touch it, you can try to plug it.

 

[Seapig]

Shut off the intake seacock, pull the exit hose off of it, and stick the end into the bilge. As mentioned earlier, use that engine as a pump.
I’ve seen big diesel powered boats already built with a Y valve at the strainer and a suction screen for this very purpose.

close seacock and open Y valve.

 

[Creekwood]

Shut off the intake seacock, pull the exit hose off of it, and stick the end into the bilge. As mentioned earlier, use that engine as a pump.
I’ve seen big diesel powered boats already built with a Y valve at the strainer and a suction screen for this very purpose.

close seacock and open Y valve.

Probably makes sense to have that pre-plumbed as a good emergency tool. I would hate to have to try to take the exit hose off the seacock while it is underwater. Its hard enough to get the two hose clamps off a fitting and pull those hoses off when it is dry and you are not in a mad panic as your boat is taking on water.

 

[douglee25]

Probably makes sense to have that pre-plumbed as a good emergency tool. I would hate to have to try to take the exit hose off the seacock while it is underwater. Its hard enough to get the two hose clamps off a fitting and pull those hoses off when it is dry and you are not in a mad panic as your boat is taking on water.

Yeah that's definitely not happening. Those hoses are usually reinforced and don't come off easily unless you cut them off.

 

[Alex F]

Shut off the intake seacock, pull the exit hose off of it, and stick the end into the bilge. As mentioned earlier, use that engine as a pump.
I’ve seen big diesel powered boats already built with a Y valve at the strainer and a suction screen for this very purpose.

close seacock and open Y valve.

As others stated, this is just not happening when you're in a hurry and the engine room is hot. Try working with 2" or larger hoses. I've changed mine and it was a project. For this reason you see some brand pre-plumb those "crash valves" with additional strainer, so no debris gets in the engine.

If water is rising faster than the pumps can handle, I'd attempt to do what you suggested on the generator side (the hose is only 1"+ and much more manageable). A tool like this will be your best friend for the moment: https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p...yj3EySE54AWUBZDmZdEaAlyeEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

If need to get some help from an engine's pump, I'd open a strainer cap, so it sucks the water via the top of the strainer. Of course it means the water level will be high, but as long as the engine's pump is assisting and the situation stabilizes, it's better than the alternative.

Another idea and much easier solution is to carry a spare bilge pump with hoses. For example, I have 4 Rule 2000 pumps. I carry a spare one for number of reasons. Engaging it with alligator clips as an additional pump, could help a lot. It'll take only few min to get it going.

 

[yobub]

You're right and it goes without saying. But, it all depends on a location. When in congested area surrounded by boaters and towing providers, your chances are greatly increased. Those that take extensive cruises, which includes offshore, know that it gets very different out there.

Ageed. I am just south of where @Stee6043 had his issue, so that was the context for my comment. If I was in clear warm shallow water in the bahamas my thought process would be different.

 

[Stee6043]

Wow Stee - that’s a scary event. I’m glad to hear it wasn’t worse. It certainly could have been!

This statement gave me pause...



I thought you had DSC fully configured. Do we need to have an awkward conversation?

Hah. I do have the DSC and my MMSI number loaded, ready to rock! To be honest I generally think of that button as being used in the absolute worst case. But perhaps I need to reconsider? Hit the button, USCG gas your coords and I assume they start hailing you?

 

[RollerCoastr]

Ah, cool. I thought you had mentioned that you were good to go with DSC.

Yeah, a Distress call is really just a digital Mayday, so that's in context of taking on water and donning PFD's etc.

When it's not a true distress/Mayday situation, then there's also time for an old-fashioned Pan Pan, which I suppose explains why radios don't have a Pan Pan button...

 

[craigswardmtb]

Great read and good timing. We leave for our longest open water trip, as a family (i have done many longer ones with other guys), yet this week to Nantucket. At points we will be pretty far out there during this 120 mile journey. My wife and I were actually discussing the sequence of events given a failure such as described. We decided the below were best for our roles:
Wife:
1. Get everyone in life jackets. The kids would already be.
2. Grab extra flares and put in dinghy (we also have a go bag and extra PFDs already in the dinghy.)
3. Grab phones, water and any quickly accessible provisions to be thrown in dinghy.
4. Get coast guard on the horn and have them on the ready standing by awaiting my assessment. (we have DSC and AIS, but i really need to get it configured with my info as we bought the boat late last year).


Captain:
1. Run down and untether the dinghy and get it ready to be launched if needed. (I may put some industrial snips in the dinghy so i can cut those lines fast if need be).
2. Assess the situation in the ER and determine what can be done to stop water flow. (I have 2 of those flexible red foam plugs, and wooden plugs. I may add some wax rings to my list)
3. Take over USCG communication and give direction on our next course of action, be it continue underway or abandon ship.

I think I am going to buy an EPIRB this week too. Not sure why i haven't after all these years.

Some good advice on hear on other fronts as well.
I do wonder about using the engine to suck water. That sea strainer is relatively high, and man do my Cummins suck alot of water fast. It would seem i would be putting my engine in a critical state quickly between the 3 bilge pumps and engine running i bet the water level would drop below the strainer quick. Do we NOT think three 2000 gph bilge pumps couldn't keep up with the water coming through a 2" prop shaft hole if indeed the shaft fell out?

 

[my3sons]

Do we NOT think three 2000 gph bilge pumps couldn't keep up with the water coming through a 2" prop shaft hole if indeed the shaft fell out?

No it won't.
A 2000 GPH bilge pump will remove 33 gpm of water in perfect conditions. I also have 3 of those in my ER, and they are not perfect. Hose friction, head, etc.
A 2" diameter hole 3' below the surface will let in 136 gallons per minute.
If something happens that the shaft leaving the boat takes the dripless seal and tears the hose, my 3 1/2" shaft log will let in 415 GPM.

Reduce the depth below water to just 2' and you start to get close in a PERFECT world, 111 GPM for a 2" hole but 340 GPM for the 3 1/2" hole
Edit: 3 feet of head reduces a rule 2000 to 1650 +/- at 13.6 volts.

 

[Rgdodson54]

Interesting answers to an unfortunate situation. Here's my 2 cents worth:
1. Place a DSC call to the USCG and at the same time tell the passengers to get into their PFDs, hopefully you have briefed one of your passengers on how to do it. Of course you DO have an MMSI number that is programmed into your VHF radio. Holding the DSC button down until you hear the long beep (about 5 seconds) and then releasing it is all you have to do. The DSC call tells the CG your GPS position (assuming your VHF is linked to the GPS) your name and so on. Yes they will ask a bunch of questions, BUT either let the other person converse or say a couple of short words and then go back to work. Save the boat..... BTW, MMSI numbers can be gotten from various sources, easiest is the USPS and it's free. Remember when you program it into the VHF you only have 2 tries, after that it has to go back to the manufacturer to be re-programmed.
2. Hard to say about going in the water, I have a pony bottle, many years experience diving and am a NAUI instructor. With all that experience I don't think I could retrieve, don and get in the water in much less than 10 minutes. I might eventually go in, but it probably wouldn't be in my top 5 steps.
3. If I could plug the hole, that would be my next step. I have some of the foam plugs........
4. Opening a strainer after shutting the seacock and starting the bad engine might give me some time, but it would take a bit of coordination with a couple of people and it is not something normally included in the required safety brief.
5. Someone mentioned taking the hose off the seacock and using that as the suction line. Ever removed one of those hoses ? Last one I replaced had to use a hacksaw.
6. Most of us have 2 bilge pumps, a primary and a high water emergency one. If you have your gray water holding tank in the engine room there is a 3rd pump. My grey water tank is aft and in between the engines. The Plexiglas top is held on by 12 screw/wing nuts. I made a 6" hole and mounted a clear plastic screw down lid. Makes it a lot easier to clean the tank, but in a flooding situation I would remove the top and now I have a 3rd bilge pump. Yes the water would have to rise a foot to overflow into the tank and I suppose a removable lid could be fashioned into the side, but the point is to somehow utilize that 3rd pump.
7. Someone said something about mounting the anodes close to the cutlass bearing to help retain thte shaft. There needs to be a minimum of 2" spacing to allow sufficient water flow through the cutlass to keep it lubricated and cooled.
8. I have used flex seal and flex tape for many things, it is good stuff. It might work if I ever decided to get into the water.
9. Last but not least, the question of while the Captain is trying to save the boat, should someone else drive it on the good engine towards safety. Maybe, but remember starting an engine and moving the boat, with all the moving parts, noise and other coordination issues, I'm not sure. If I had some of my trusted buds that know boats, probably so. My family and their usual friends, maybe not. I had to limp home last year after dropping an exhaust valve seat that destroyed an engine. The best I could comfortably get was 8 knots. If the boat was taking on a lot of water, I figure the if the boat is going to be saved or lost, will depend on with actions are taken in the first 10 minutes. 8 knots in the wrong direction....well at that time, I don't think it's that critical.

 

[my3sons]

9. Last but not least, the question of while the Captain is trying to save the boat, should someone else drive it on the good engine towards safety. Maybe, but remember starting an engine and moving the boat, with all the moving parts, noise and other coordination issues, I'm not sure. If I had some of my trusted buds that know boats, probably so. My family and their usual friends, maybe not. I had to limp home last year after dropping an exhaust valve seat that destroyed an engine. The best I could comfortably get was 8 knots. If the boat was taking on a lot of water, I figure the if the boat is going to be saved or lost, will depend on with actions are taken in the first 10 minutes. 8 knots in the wrong direction....well at that time, I don't think it's that critical.

I don’t know either, but forward motion reduces the water that would come in the shaft log. How fast does the boat have to move before the shaft seals Start to burn up from lack of water without the engine running without a crossover Hose? Another game time decision I guess.

 

[boatman37]

I was gonna ask something similar to above. I know in a typical small boat you can pull the plug and at speed no water will come in. In fact I have seen people do this to remove water. I know nothing at all about inboards but would water still come in if you had enough speed? Understanding that getting enough speed might be an issue if you are down an engine.

 

[RollerCoastr]

Interesting answers to an unfortunate situation. Here's my 2 cents worth:
1. Place a DSC call to the USCG and at the same time tell the passengers to get into their PFDs, hopefully you have briefed one of your passengers on how to do it. Of course you DO have an MMSI number that is programmed into your VHF radio. Holding the DSC button down until you hear the long beep (about 5 seconds) and then releasing it is all you have to do. The DSC call tells the CG your GPS position (assuming your VHF is linked to the GPS) your name and so on. Yes they will ask a bunch of questions, BUT either let the other person converse or say a couple of short words and then go back to work. Save the boat..... BTW, MMSI numbers can be gotten from various sources, easiest is the USPS and it's free. Remember when you program it into the VHF you only have 2 tries, after that it has to go back to the manufacturer to be re-programmed.

I hope I never have to send a distress call, but if I do, I will include the “nature” of the distress, ie: sinking

One less question to answer later is good, but more importantly, the call may be taken more seriously if specified instead of just “undesignated”. It may also get the attention of someone who may not be the nearest vessel, but is carrying a high capacity pump...

My fixed-mount makes that easy. My handheld requires a few more steps. (Should be a standard process imo, but oh well)

Re-programming is model-specific, even within the same brand. Some allow 1 reprogram, others don’t, and yet others can be unlocked using a code provided by the mfr.