Westerbeke problem

[stephens013]

my gen will not fire up, I mean nothing; no power what so ever. Traced it to the main time delay breaker blowing. I've reset the switches, looked to see if anything is out of sorts; nothing. The fuse pops as soon as power is applied. She was working fine a few weeks ago; now nothing. Has anyone had this issue. Sure would like to get a quick fix

 

[dtfeld]

my gen will not fire up, I mean nothing; no power what so ever. Traced it to the main time delay breaker blowing. I've reset the switches, looked to see if anything is out of sorts; nothing. The fuse pops as soon as power is applied. She was working fine a few weeks ago; now nothing. Has anyone had this issue. Sure would like to get a quick fix

Specific Model? Is the Time delay breaker the AC Breaker? Fuse that pops is the glass fuse on the control box?

 

[stephens013]

Specific Model? Is the Time delay breaker the AC Breaker? Fuse that pops is the glass fuse on the control box?

that’s the breaker, time delay in glass sleeve, that’s the one. This is the gen

 

[stephens013]

Discovered the problem is not with the Westerbeke nor its wiring. Fault is in the SeA Fire emergence shut down control board. It gets power to the relay for the generator and you can hear it chatter then the fuse blows. Come to find out this is not a one of a kind mality. Sea Fire makes a new solid state version that plugs in: kind of. If you up date to solid state means also up dating ovad control head at the helm and running additional control wires. Solid state also has diferant wire connections to contend with. Changing all those would have been a super pain in the ass. Even getting a new direct replacement can be an issue because Sea Fire made the boards specifically for Sea Ray. Replacment board dose all the same stuff but the placement of the terminals is a little diferant but it uses the same type of attachment terminal end. I got a brand new old style from Pacific Fire and Marine in Long Beach, California. John can hook you up should you need something along this line (562)484-1045.

 

[ttmott]

Many owners don't know that not only the boat's engines but the engine room blowers and (as you found out) the generator are dependent on that crazy little Sea-Fire ESRS box. So, something in the relay box took the generator's ign wiring to ground; based upon the design of the system that failure is improbable. I'd like to know more on the exact cause. If you are simply going to toss the box can you send it to me? I'll cut it open and try to determine what caused the short.

The below schematic is how the Westerbeke 7.6BTD (they are all similar) is configured with the Sea-Fire system; you can see that the Ign wire to ground is a very weird failure:

 

[stephens013]

Many owners don't know that not only the boat's engines but the engine room blowers and (as you found out) the generator are dependent on that crazy little Sea-Fire ESRS box. So, something in the relay box took the generator's ign wiring to ground; based upon the design of the system that failure is improbable. I'd like to know more on the exact cause. If you are simply going to toss the box can you send it to me? I'll cut it open and try to determine what caused the short.

The below schematic is how the Westerbeke 7.6BTD (they are all similar) is configured with the Sea-Fire system; you can see that the Ign wire to ground is a very weird failure:
View attachment 100768

Interesting Sure, I'll fire it off to you. That's assuming I get this thing out with out taking a hammer to it.

This whole thing happened from one cycle of the generator and the next the fuse was blowing every time. I replace the fuse, apply power and this kind of buzzing, rattling sound would come from behind the main D.C. circut breaker panel in the engin bay. Opened that puppy up and there's the Sea Fire board that's causing all the problems.

My local Sea Fire guy will certify the fire suppression unit but will not service this kind of hardwear problem issues. Says he's seen several similar problems. John with Pacific Fire in Long Beach tells me he has replaced quite a few of the older Sea Fire relay units; that replacing the unit I have is common.

As mentioned before, swaping out old relay unit to the new solid state jobs is problematic. First off the terminal lugs on the old units are not compatible with the new insert connections on the solid state board. I'm thinking that cutting the connectors and extending each wire in order to connect it to the new box would be a be a neve racking event. John agreed; he's done a few and it ain't fun. You also have to replace the control unit at the helm which evidently requires new wiring. Running wires through and around a boat always makes for an entertaining event. John said that Sea Fire still has and or makes the relay models. When I talked directly to Sea Fire they only reference the solid state units. As a Sea Fire service rep John was able to get their off the shelf relay models. Sea Fire's old stock vs new technology issues. John says they might not be the exact terminal lay out but that they will work. No additional pieces and or parts to install or wire up.

I'm just hoping replacing this thing doesn't over tax either my patience or electrical skills. Just glad this happened at my home port. Really suck if I were some where down range. Dark clouds; silver linings and all that sort of thing.

 

[ttmott]

That buzzing vibrating relay is indicative of wiring issues before the relay box. I had the exact thing happen in my 2000 400DA and found it to be the main control wiring connector (by Sea Ray) at the generator had a bad pin/socket and caused that relay to "buzz". I replaced the Sea-Fire relay box but that didn't fix the problem. As it ended up that pin/socket wasn't really rated for the current flowing through it and it was overheating. Sometimes the generator would run just fine then shut down and other times it wouldn't even start.....not even crank. I ended up tracing every wire and developed that schematic to understand the system better. Haunted me for five months.

 

[stephens013]

That buzzing vibrating relay is indicative of wiring issues before the relay box. I had the exact thing happen in my 2000 400DA and found it to be the main control wiring connector (by Sea Ray) at the generator had a bad pin/socket and caused that relay to "buzz". I replaced the Sea-Fire relay box but that didn't fix the problem. As it ended up that pin/socket wasn't really rated for the current flowing through it and it was overheating. Sometimes the generator would run just fine then shut down and other times it wouldn't even start.....not even crank. I ended up tracing every wire and developed that schematic to understand the system better. Haunted me for five months.

So the replacment of the Sea Fire box didn't fix your problem; interesting. A bad pin socket from the main control wiring connector. I'll check the schematics between the Sea Fire box and the generator; see which plug dose what. Had a guy on the boat last week that chased wires to the Sea Fire box like I did. Came to pretty much the same conclusion; the Sea Fire relay was failing. All that aside, sure don't want to replace something that ain't broke.

Spark chasing is not my idea of fun. Would really appreciate a short cut. What do you suggest I do? I can clean and reset all the connections; they look good but I am open to suggestions.

 

[ttmott]

If your generator has the Monoplex controller which is the black box mounted by the unit the connector should be around that somewhere; from what I can remember it is the two 10ga white/red wires in that connector. In my case however, it wasn't tripping breakers or blowing fuses.

 

[stephens013]

If your generator has the Monoplex controller which is the black box mounted by the unit the connector should be around that somewhere; from what I can remember it is the two 10ga white/red wires in that connector. In my case however, it wasn't tripping breakers or blowing fuses.

Hey, I appreciate the heads up.
Plan is to double check all the connections; double check for corrosion and burning before replacing parts.
Can't go for months wondering if this thing will crank one time to the next.

 

[dtfeld]

Interesting Sure, I'll fire it off to you. That's assuming I get this thing out with out taking a hammer to it.

This whole thing happened from one cycle of the generator and the next the fuse was blowing every time. I replace the fuse, apply power and this kind of buzzing, rattling sound would come from behind the main D.C. circut breaker panel in the engin bay. Opened that puppy up and there's the Sea Fire board that's causing all the problems.

My local Sea Fire guy will certify the fire suppression unit but will not service this kind of hardwear problem issues. Says he's seen several similar problems. John with Pacific Fire in Long Beach tells me he has replaced quite a few of the older Sea Fire relay units; that replacing the unit I have is common.

As mentioned before, swaping out old relay unit to the new solid state jobs is problematic. First off the terminal lugs on the old units are not compatible with the new insert connections on the solid state board. I'm thinking that cutting the connectors and extending each wire in order to connect it to the new box would be a be a neve racking event. John agreed; he's done a few and it ain't fun. You also have to replace the control unit at the helm which evidently requires new wiring. Running wires through and around a boat always makes for an entertaining event. John said that Sea Fire still has and or makes the relay models. When I talked directly to Sea Fire they only reference the solid state units. As a Sea Fire service rep John was able to get their off the shelf relay models. Sea Fire's old stock vs new technology issues. John says they might not be the exact terminal lay out but that they will work. No additional pieces and or parts to install or wire up.

I'm just hoping replacing this thing doesn't over tax either my patience or electrical skills. Just glad this happened at my home port. Really suck if I were some where down range. Dark clouds; silver linings and all that sort of thing.

I have a troubleshooting guide/checklist I put together based on the written procedure I got from Sea Fire. I’ll email it to you if you think it would help. Might be worth the 15 minutes to verify operation if you haven’t done so already.

I thought my shut down module was bad as well, but turned out to be a bad remote display. The boxes are still available just a couple weeks ago and I was quoted about $400.

this is my adventures with that system. > http://www.clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/sea-fire-remote.96747/

 

[The Bill Collector]

Hey guys, with all this WB knowledge, I have to ask a couple of questions. I have a WB 8.0 BTD...
1) how much antifreeze does it hold ?
2) #1 (left to right) fuel injector is leaking fuel, has anyone else had this issue, and what was the fix ?

 

[stephens013]

I have a troubleshooting guide/checklist I put together based on the written procedure I got from Sea Fire. I’ll email it to you if you think it would help. Might be worth the 15 minutes to verify operation if you haven’t done so already.

I thought my shut down module was bad as well, but turned out to be a bad remote display. The boxes are still available just a couple weeks ago and I was quoted about $400.

this is my adventures with that system. > http://www.clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/sea-fire-remote.96747/

I read all that posting and have come to the conclusion that I am truly screwed. But on the bright side I think I know more now than I did be for. Least that's my hope.

My local Sea Fire guy, the guy that certifies the systems but will not work on them, told me to jump the generator wires to the engine posts. Not sure that would work because as I understand the system power would not be applied to the relay. The engine replay gets its power from the ignition switch.

But hey; I digress, the up side is there's always a place for a new artificial reef.

 

[LMBoat]

i had a leak at the injector. Just tightening it up fixed the leak.

 

[dtfeld]

I read all that posting and have come to the conclusion that I am truly screwed. But on the bright side I think I know more now than I did be for. Least that's my hope.

My local Sea Fire guy, the guy that certifies the systems but will not work on them, told me to jump the generator wires to the engine posts. Not sure that would work because as I understand the system power would not be applied to the relay. The engine replay gets its power from the ignition switch.

But hey; I digress, the up side is there's always a place for a new artificial reef.

Well, we are dealing with 15++ year old boats...somethings always going wrong. My understanding was the original relay module is available. Here are the part numbers and prices for the relay modules. The Control display is solid state, as they got rid of the toggle switch and now it even more of a black box than the original.

I would bet you have one of these.

 

[dtfeld]

Hey guys, with all this WB knowledge, I have to ask a couple of questions. I have a WB 8.0 BTD...
1) how much antifreeze does it hold ?
2) #1 (left to right) fuel injector is leaking fuel, has anyone else had this issue, and what was the fix ?
View attachment 100802

Q#1 7.6 BTD is 1 gallon, I think the 8.0 is the same.

#2 Could be as easy as tightening up the connections. I cant tell if it the compression fitting, or if the fuel pipe connection is loose/leaking. The compression fitting is pretty simple, just tighten (gently). The fuel pipe is a little more complicated. You have to pull off the supply line and tighten the underlying fuel pipe (return line). There is a gasket part #036922 under there. There less than $5.

 

[The Bill Collector]

Q#1 7.6 BTD is 1 gallon, I think the 8.0 is the same.

View attachment 100835


#2 Could be as easy as tightening up the connections. I cant tell if it the compression fitting, or if the fuel pipe connection is loose/leaking. The compression fitting is pretty simple, just tighten (gently). The fuel pipe is a little more complicated. You have to pull off the supply line and tighten the underlying fuel pipe (return line). There is a gasket part #036922 under there. There less than $5.

Thank you

 

[The Bill Collector]

i had a leak at the injector. Just tightening it up fixed the leak.

Thank you

 

[The Bill Collector]

Q#1 7.6 BTD is 1 gallon, I think the 8.0 is the same.

View attachment 100835


#2 Could be as easy as tightening up the connections. I cant tell if it the compression fitting, or if the fuel pipe connection is loose/leaking. The compression fitting is pretty simple, just tighten (gently). The fuel pipe is a little more complicated. You have to pull off the supply line and tighten the underlying fuel pipe (return line). There is a gasket part #036922 under there. There less than $5.

#2 - Here's my mechanic's reply from the pictures I sent >>

That's a return line leak. The line that jumpers the tops of the 3 injectors together is a fuel return line. The bolt that goes into the top of the injector seals into that return line by means of 2 washers (typically copper but other sealing washers can work here as well).

If you replace the sealing washers, tighten that bolt, that should do it.

Regards,
—
Tom Kychun
Project Lead/Coordinator
Kraken Marine Services

 

[GnrlPatton]

#2 - Here's my mechanic's reply from the pictures I sent >>

That's a return line leak. The line that jumpers the tops of the 3 injectors together is a fuel return line. The bolt that goes into the top of the injector seals into that return line by means of 2 washers (typically copper but other sealing washers can work here as well).

If you replace the sealing washers, tighten that bolt, that should do it.

Regards,
—
Tom Kychun
Project Lead/Coordinator
Kraken Marine Services

Kraken is awesome, Derek has spent a ton of time on my boat getting my fuel system working and adjusted. For the initial injector replacement, they sent 2 techs out and knocked it out in a few hours.