Westebeke 4.5 KW problem - 1997 330 DA.

Rocklobster

Rocklobster

New Member
Oct 11, 2006
40
Farifield County, CT
Boat Info
1997 330 Sundancer
Engines
V-Drive, Carb.
In the fall, I found water in one of my cylinders on my genny when I was winterizing it. I beleive I cranked it too many times before it started without turning off the sea water supply. All I can figure is the exhaust system filled up and backed up into the engine.

Long story short, I took off the carb which was full of water. I took all the plugs out and filled everything with Marvel Oil. I was able to get it to run at idle only after putting the carb on. I then changed the oil 4 times until it wasn't milky. It would only run at idle but I was able to winterize it. Any slight electrical load and it would stall out.

Over the winter I rebuilt the carb. All adjustment screws were put in the same position.

I put it back on and had it running again today. It was improved but still not right. It would handle a 10 amp load. Anything over that, and it would still immediately stall.

Any ideas what this could be? I'm hoping it's a carb problem and not a cylinder/piston problem. My theory is that at least it can take some load now as compared to before I rebuilt the carb where it wouldn't take any load. Then again, I don't think there are any adjustments on the carb. The manual said the high speed jet is fixed.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you, Joe
 
Rocklobster said:
In the fall, I found water in one of my cylinders on my genny when I was winterizing it. I beleive I cranked it too many times before it started without turning off the sea water supply. All I can figure is the exhaust system filled up and backed up into the engine.

Long story short, I took off the carb which was full of water. I took all the plugs out and filled everything with Marvel Oil. I was able to get it to run at idle only after putting the carb on. I then changed the oil 4 times until it wasn't milky. It would only run at idle but I was able to winterize it. Any slight electrical load and it would stall out.

Over the winter I rebuilt the carb. All adjustment screws were put in the same position.

I put it back on and had it running again today. It was improved but still not right. It would handle a 10 amp load. Anything over that, and it would still immediately stall.

Any ideas what this could be? I'm hoping it's a carb problem and not a cylinder/piston problem. My theory is that at least it can take some load now as compared to before I rebuilt the carb where it wouldn't take any load. Then again, I don't think there are any adjustments on the carb. The manual said the high speed jet is fixed.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you, Joe
Click to expand...

Joe,

The question really is what if any damage was done to the engine with the water intrusion. Think about it for a minute: For the carb/intake to have raw water in it means it overflowed from the exhaust side into the cylinder then up throught the intake valves (bad, really bad and worse).

You have done what you can to save the unit. The first thing I would do is a compression check on all the cylinders. What I am looking for is lower compression on one of the cylinders indicating ring damage or a bent rod from the water intrusion. Let's start with that. If the compression checks out we can rule out a horsepower loss due to compression and move on to the fuel system.


Additionally, a siphon break would have probably prevented the water from filling up the muffler and backing up into the exhaust manifold. I don't believe your year has one installed but they are easy to do and worth it.

-John
 
Play Date,

Can you elaborate more on the syphon break? I know what it is I am just curious how it works with a generator. I am always nervous about this type of issue with the 7.0 BCG in my boat.

Jon
 
Jon,
A siphon break is required if any of the unit is below the waterline. Think of the raw water cooling system as a void under the water line. Water can push past the impeller and back fill the exhaust system. this will create a hydrolock.
 
Jon,

I scanned the Westerbeke pages for you that detail the information. Unfortunately, they are too large (100K) to post. I'm good to email them to you if you are interested.

Most generators sit below the waterline and as a result can siphon water either thru the raw water intake or via the exhaust port. Westerbeke as well as others requires a siphon (vented loop) break to minimize the occurence of water intrusion. I believe that they were required on all new generators by 1998.

You can find them at go2marine under vented loop.

Basically, they have a valve at the top of the loop which lets air in to "break" the column of water in the hose with air and let it drain out when it is not under pressure. It is important to place this loop as high as possible in the engine compartment.

Installation is simple and it will give you piece of mind. I'm a big fan of Westerbeke....they make a great product which is easy to service.

-John

ASE Master Mechanic
 
Thanks for your replies guys. Here is the latest:

Compression:

I did the compression test this evening. I did each cylinder with the other 2 cylinders having their spark plugs in (if it makes a difference). The engine was cold.

#1 Bow cylinder: 230PSI
#2 Center cylinder: 195 PSI
#3 Stern cylinder: 180 PSI

I think this is ok but not sure. I can't find in the maintanence manual what it should be. If it were bad, wouldn't one of them be at around 30 psi or something?

Siphon Break:

I do have one at the top of the hose which dumps into the elbow. I removed it and sucked on it to make sure it opened up. It seemed ok. All looked original with the boat.

I'll try to take a picture of it. Looks to me that the waterline would run about half way up the generator. In other words the top of the cylinders and carb is above the water line.

Not sure this would prevent a overflow of water into the engine if I cranked it too long without starting. Water would build up and run into the cylinders even with a siphon break right?

John, I have a manual but maybe you have more info. I'll send you my email directly.

Thank you.....Joe
 
If forgot to mention something a local marine mechanic told me. He said that the engine is not large enough to bend something due to water. He said it wouldn't crank over but not bend anything.

Keep in mind that this genny wasn't running and ingest water causing hydro-lock.

It hydoo-locked when I was cranking the starter (for too long I assume)

Question about Carb:

Could it be a carb problem still even though I rebuilt it. I have an idea. While someone puts a load on over 10 amps, I'll look into the intake in the carb to see if gas is being injected into the main venturi. There is a little nozzle in the main venturi that I believe shoot in gas when any load is seen in the engine.

Dumb idea?


.....Joe
 
Rocklobster said:
Thanks for your replies guys. Here is the latest:

Compression:

I did the compression test this evening. I did each cylinder with the other 2 cylinders having their spark plugs in (if it makes a difference). The engine was cold.

#1 Bow cylinder: 230PSI
#2 Center cylinder: 195 PSI
#3 Stern cylinder: 180 PSI

I think this is ok but not sure. I can't find in the maintanence manual what it should be. If it were bad, wouldn't one of them be at around 30 psi or something?

Siphon Break:

I do have one at the top of the hose which dumps into the elbow. I removed it and sucked on it to make sure it opened up. It seemed ok. All looked original with the boat.

I'll try to take a picture of it. Looks to me that the waterline would run about half way up the generator. In other words the top of the cylinders and carb is above the water line.

Not sure this would prevent a overflow of water into the engine if I cranked it too long without starting. Water would build up and run into the cylinders even with a siphon break right?

John, I have a manual but maybe you have more info. I'll send you my email directly.

Thank you.....Joe
Click to expand...

Joe,

A few more questions:

1) How many hours are on the generator?
2) Which cylinder had water in it?
3) How do the plugs look?
4) Does the engine vibrate with no load?
5) Does it take a lot of cranking to start it? Has that always been the case?

Cylinder #1 doesn't make sense that it is that high. 180-195 is normal. Your right with that compression, there should be no problem to create the horsepower. If I could get you to do a warm test (warm it up no load, then, remove all plugs and close the seacock for the test). That should rule out the compression as the issue and hopefully even out the results.

We have some more diagnostics to do once we rule out compression. I hope you are patient. I had a brand new one that wouldn't hold a load and would shut down without reason. None of the safeties tripped and I went through everything (fuel, electrical, control boards, carb, fuel pump) with Westerbeke and it turned out to be a broken distributor signal wire at a crimp near the distributor. I almost went crazy solving that one.

Broken wires due to vibration older units are a common problem. While it is warming up, move the wiring harnesses where there are connectors just to be sure. Don't be afraid to cut a wire tie to check the connectors.

The vented loop doesn't prevent all water intrusion but it helps. As you are cranking the muffler fills up with water then backs up the exhaust hose into the exhaust ports on the head. Exhaust gas from the engine running pushes the water out normally. Without that pressure and depending on how the exhaust system is laid out makes water intrusion more likely when long cranking is involved. The long cranking could also be a symptom of the problem we are trying to find.

-John

ASE Master Mechanic
 
Rocklobster said:
If forgot to mention something a local marine mechanic told me. He said that the engine is not large enough to bend something due to water. He said it wouldn't crank over but not bend anything.

Keep in mind that this genny wasn't running and ingest water causing hydro-lock.

It hydoo-locked when I was cranking the starter (for too long I assume)

Question about Carb:

Could it be a carb problem still even though I rebuilt it. I have an idea. While someone puts a load on over 10 amps, I'll look into the intake in the carb to see if gas is being injected into the main venturi. There is a little nozzle in the main venturi that I believe shoot in gas when any load is seen in the engine.

Dumb idea?


.....Joe
Click to expand...


When you put a load on it you should visually see the throttle arm responding by opening up the throttle body and enriching the mixture. I'm not sure I would put my face that close to an operating carb....what happens if it backfires??

A couple of things come into play here. I start wondering about the the fuel pump and whether or not there is sufficient pressure. That's another thing that goes bad with time and has similiar symptoms. When was the last time you changed the fuel filters on the unit (ethanol clogging)?

John

ASE Master Mechanic
 
John,

Thanks again for help.

1. Hrs on Genny: ~530. Ran like a charm all last year. Surveyor loaded to max output with no problems about 12 months ago when I purchased the Boat.

2. In the fall I first saw the water on the center plug. As I looked more, even the stern one had little drops of water on it. I think they all saw some water.

3. Tonight, all three plugs looked the same. Black with some oil. Keep in mind I loaded this thing with Marvel so it wouldn't rust out over the winter.

4. Under no load, it runs very smooth and no real vibration. Sounds good. If I put one small stove burner on (10 amps), no real change in sound of genny. No real change to rpm etc that I can hear but keep in mind I was down in the cabin turning the burner on. Put second burner on and brrrrrr.....stalls immediately.

It did something similar in the fall before I rebuilt the carb. The difference was that it would stall with any slight load (e.g. 1 amp). When It stalls, the govener lever moves a lot and it stalls. Not sure what comes first, the stalling or the govener lever moving. Happens very quickly.


5. usually starts around 2-3 seconds of cranking. It starts pretty quickly. I'd say its always been that way.

Even too this day I don't understand how the water got in there. Maybe I did crank it too long but maybe I didn't. I didn't know that it was dangerous to crank a genny too long so I'm not sure what I did that night. I wish I could remember. All I can assume is that's what happened. I so no other reason so far that indicates otherwise

One local mechanic said that water can get in there via a cracked elbow that lets water shoot in the wong direction instead of down and out toward the muffler. I had it off an didn't see any cracks but it's covered in soot inside so maybe I should just get a new one to be safe.

I'm a little nervous about doing a warm compression test. The manual says to not remove plugs in a warm engine. Says it must be cool. I think that's because of an aluminum head. In the fall, to top it all off, I had cross threaded in the center plug. It's a little bunged up but still ok if I am very careful putting it back in. I know what it should look like in the mirror now!

I will check all the wire connections and harnesses tomorrow.

Sorry for long post - want to capture as much details as I can.

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

Joe
 
Rocklobster said:
John,

Thanks again for help.

1. Hrs on Genny: ~530. Ran like a charm all last year. Surveyor loaded to max output with no problems about 12 months ago when I purchased the Boat.

2. In the fall I first saw the water on the center plug. As I looked more, even the stern one had little drops of water on it. I think they all saw some water.

3. Tonight, all three plugs looked the same. Black with some oil. Keep in mind I loaded this thing with Marvel so it wouldn't rust out over the winter.

4. Under no load, it runs very smooth and no real vibration. Sounds good. If I put one small stove burner on (10 amps), no real change in sound of genny. No real change to rpm etc that I can hear but keep in mind I was down in the cabin turning the burner on. Put second burner on and brrrrrr.....stalls immediately.

It did something similar in the fall before I rebuilt the carb. The difference was that it would stall with any slight load (e.g. 1 amp). When It stalls, the govener lever moves a lot and it stalls. Not sure what comes first, the stalling or the govener lever moving. Happens very quickly.


5. usually starts around 2-3 seconds of cranking. It starts pretty quickly. I'd say its always been that way.

Even too this day I don't understand how the water got in there. Maybe I did crank it too long but maybe I didn't. I didn't know that it was dangerous to crank a genny too long so I'm not sure what I did that night. I wish I could remember. All I can assume is that's what happened. I so no other reason so far that indicates otherwise

One local mechanic said that water can get in there via a cracked elbow that lets water shoot in the wong direction instead of down and out toward the muffler. I had it off an didn't see any cracks but it's covered in soot inside so maybe I should just get a new one to be safe.

I'm a little nervous about doing a warm compression test. The manual says to not remove plugs in a warm engine. Says it must be cool. I think that's because of an aluminum head. In the fall, to top it all off, I had cross threaded in the center plug. It's a little bunged up but still ok if I am very careful putting it back in. I know what it should look like in the mirror now!

I will check all the wire connections and harnesses tomorrow.

Sorry for long post - want to capture as much details as I can.

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

Joe
Click to expand...

Joe,

If you have an elbow leak, you should visibly see a lot more steam from the exhaust port.

The governor (actuator) is trying to increase rpms when you apply the load. It does this by sensing falling rpms. The distributor is connected to the control board which monitors engine rpms for overspeed and underspeed. As you describe how it is working, the actuator/control board seems to be performing properly.

That leaves us with fuel and electrical as the remaining issues. No worry on the warm test, it is not dangerous....they just don't want you to get burned with a hot plug. The cross-thread plug would make me a little hesitant as well. A little anti-seize on the plugs is a good thing to do.

So, please check the electrical connections while it is running by pulling and pushing the low voltage wires near the distributor, coil and sensors. If you are satisfied that they are sound, we will move on to the fuel test.

This will require another person to help. Effectively, as they add the load and the engine starts to die, I want you to hit the pre-heat switch and tell me what the engine does.

Also, have the fuel filters been replaced?

-John

ASE Master Mechanic
 
Hey John,

I'll give it a try tomorrow.

I called Hansen Marine (westebeke distributer) and ran my compression numbers by one of the guys. They said they were ok. He says it's either a carb problem or a govener problem. He says they are seeing a lot of ethonol problems.

My bet it's the carb. The govener didn't have water in it like the carb did.

I'll post my results of your suggestion soon.

Thanks, Joe
 
John,

So I was finally able to get back to the genny tonight. I think I have better news.

I installed the new riser since someone told me they can develop crack sometimes which are hard to see but will shoot water into the genny. I figured I'd change it out with a new gasket to be safe.

Anyway, I got it running and let it run for about 2 hrs. For the first 20 minutes it smoked off all the Marvel Mystery oil that I put in there last fall to protect it from the water intrusion.

After a while of no smoking it was able to maintain running with a 16 amp load on it. No stallling. This was the two stove burners on together which registered 16 amps.

The AC unit stalled it about half the time. I think it should run the AC but not sure. I know the motor load shoots it up toward 30 amps right when it kicks in.

I need to bring a hair dryer or something to add to the stove load to test more loading on it.

I wonder if it was stalling last month becuase all the marvel hadn't burned off yet?

In theory a 4.5KW genny should run with 34 amps on it right?

.......Joe
 
Joe,

So I finally get to use my high school physics equation for amps :)

Watts/volts=amps so 4500/120=37.5 amps

That is great news about the unit running longer....it still seems light on horsepower. The best load is the stove and water heater. With those on you can see how the unit is responding to the load and if the exhaust is starting to smoke black (indicating a heavy load).

The ac is the ultimate test because it takes a lot of amps to start the compressor. As a generator gets older, it has less horsepower and as the compressor gets older if requires more amps to start. Something gives sooner or later.

After you get a baseline on the how much load it will take, then we can make sure the timing and the rest of the adjustments are correct. I know I asked this before but did you replace the fuel filters on the unit? There are two of them.

-John
 
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