Ukraine, Taiwan

Creekwood said:
I take no offense. I agree we are lucky. And Canada does what it can on the world military stage. We were there in Afghanistan, Korea, WW1 and WW2. We don't have the military might of the US, but we try to punch above our weight class. And I can absolutely guarantee that if the US was ever attacked, we would be right at your side, with whatever might we have. So when your pipsqueak neighbor says we have your back, we mean it. So does all of NATO members.

All of NATO is hooked at the hip and we have all benefited from the world peace that has resulted. Yes, the US has been the global leader and for the most part you are proud of that, and you should be. And yes, many countries have not kept up with military spending levels that are supposed to be agreed to.

The NATO Treaty is worth a re-read. It was basically the US that wrote it.

The North Atlantic Treaty
Washington D.C. - 4 April 1949


The Parties to this Treaty reaffirm their faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all governments.

They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law. They seek to promote stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area.

They are resolved to unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security. They therefore agree to this North Atlantic Treaty :

Article 1
The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

Article 2
The Parties will contribute toward the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or all of them.

Article 3
In order more effectively to achieve the objectives of this Treaty, the Parties, separately and jointly, by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack.

Article 4
The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.

Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

Article 6 1
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
  • on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
  • on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Article 7
This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as affecting in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter of the Parties which are members of the United Nations, or the primary responsibility of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security.

Article 8
Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.

Article 9
The Parties hereby establish a Council, on which each of them shall be represented, to consider matters concerning the implementation of this Treaty. The Council shall be so organised as to be able to meet promptly at any time. The Council shall set up such subsidiary bodies as may be necessary; in particular it shall establish immediately a defence committee which shall recommend measures for the implementation of Articles 3 and 5.

Article 10
The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.

Article 11
This Treaty shall be ratified and its provisions carried out by the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional processes. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited as soon as possible with the Government of the United States of America, which will notify all the other signatories of each deposit. The Treaty shall enter into force between the States which have ratified it as soon as the ratifications of the majority of the signatories, including the ratifications of Belgium, Canada, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the United States, have been deposited and shall come into effect with respect to other States on the date of the deposit of their ratifications. (3)

Article 12
After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the North Atlantic area, including the development of universal as well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the United Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.

Article 13
After the Treaty has been in force for twenty years, any Party may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation.

Article 14
This Treaty, of which the English and French texts are equally authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the Government of the United States of America. Duly certified copies will be transmitted by that Government to the Governments of other signatories.

  1. The definition of the territories to which Article 5 applies was revised by Article 2 of the Protocol to the North Atlantic Treaty on the accession of Greece and Turkey signed on 22 October 1951.
  2. On January 16, 1963, the North Atlantic Council noted that insofar as the former Algerian Departments of France were concerned, the relevant clauses of this Treaty had become inapplicable as from July 3, 1962.
  3. The Treaty came into force on 24 August 1949, after the deposition of the ratifications of all signatory states.
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Sir in my opinion the NATO treaty is shit. The American people has funded it for decades. All that money could have been spent alot differently here at home. Just think what those funds could have done for the military, explortation, and infrastructure.
Everyone wants protected but dosen't want to pay up. If we had spent all that money on self preservation there is no doubt we would be far superior to anyone on a military basis. In fact we are now, but with those funds we would be insurmountable in my opinion.
 
RBB said:
Sir in my opinion the NATO treaty is shit. The American people has funded it for decades. All that money could have been spent alot differently here at home. Just think what those funds could have done for the military, explortation, and infrastructure.
Everyone wants protected but dosen't want to pay up. If we had spent all that money on self preservation there is no doubt we would be far superior to anyone on a military basis. In fact we are now, but with those funds we would be insurmountable in my opinion.
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Yep - we need to stop funding the world...
 
Creekwood said:
So what is the your view on the US actively on the ground defending Ukraine if Putin decides to invade? Lock in your opinion right now. Pretend you are the POTUS. Make the call...........

As a Canadian, I support having Canadian troops participate in defending democracy in Europe and that includes standing up to Putin in defending the Ukraine. So that is my call.
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I can agree with you if the other NATO countries will commit their troops to defend to right of Ukraine to exist as a neighboring country. There was support in Korea and to some extent some support in SE Asia. If the world would be willing to stand up to Putin then he would have a different attitude for sure. The same with China.
 
Creekwood said:
I thought you all backed Trump's plan to get the US out of all foreign conflicts. But now you want the US to dive in again? Make up your mind. Anyway, I am sure that Brandon will be getting advice from the people that really know WTF is going on, and I don't mean any of the politicians or any of us on CSR. I mean the US military and the CIA. The POTUS ultimately makes the calls, but only an idiot POTUS would make a call on his own.
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If by "dive in" you mean we want boots on the ground then no. we don't want that. Crippling sanctions and strong leadership. Yeah we want that and we ain't getting it.

Not real sure who Brandon is getting advice from, other than Uncle Bernie. Evidence would suggest he's listening only to idiots witch would of course also make him an idiot POTUS.
 
OllieC said:
I support arming the living snot out of Ukraine and not sending blankets and helmets.
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I take it back. With other administrations this would work and probably detour Putin from invading. However if this is run like Afghanistan, we’d just be giving away billions of $$$ and our military technology to Russia.
 
WV 320 Dancer said:
As a veteran I am not in favor of us getting involved in any conflict. I lost too many good friends in SE Asia in a meaningless war. The real issue is the NATO countries that border Ukraine are saying nothing. I have zero confidence in any of the NATO countries that they would be willing to put their countries' armed forces in harm's way. So why should we give up our sons and daughters? The real bad result is what this is going to do to our economy.
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The NATO countries are calling for a “bold response” from the US. Where were they when their dues were in arrears? Trump was criticized when he called them out for not paying their fair share on time. He called on Germany to look to the West for energy sources instead of Russia. Germany chose Russia for energy and surprise, surprise, Germany is urging restraint when it comes to calling out Russia.
 
bobeast said:
If by "dive in" you mean we want boots on the ground then no. we don't want that. Crippling sanctions and strong leadership. Yeah we want that and we ain't getting it.
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This is not as simple as you think it is. We did the crippling sanctions and strong leadership with Japan. Its response was the attack on Pearl Harbor and we were in WWII overnight. We need a President who knows how to play chess.
 
Creekwood said:
So what is the your view on the US actively on the ground defending Ukraine if Putin decides to invade? Lock in your opinion right now. Pretend you are the POTUS. Make the call...........

As a Canadian, I support having Canadian troops participate in defending democracy in Europe and that includes standing up to Putin in defending the Ukraine. So that is my call.
Click to expand...
Would you please ask your government to pay it’s fair share? Canada is below 2% of its GDP on defense. When you get on track with your dues your opinion on committing US troops will be more meaningful. Thank you for your moral support.
 
WV 320 Dancer said:
I can agree with you if the other NATO countries will commit their troops to defend to right of Ukraine to exist as a neighboring country. There was support in Korea and to some extent some support in SE Asia. If the world would be willing to stand up to Putin then he would have a different attitude for sure. The same with China.
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Sir I am not so certain China care cares. Russia is not even close to what China is , Xi would just like for Putin to kick it off.
 
El Capitan said:
He’s sent 8500 troops and fighter jets. WTF for? That’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Nobody but Ukraine is fighting this looming war.
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Don't worry. The freaking Germans sent helmets.
 
Creekwood said:
I thought you all backed Trump's plan to get the US out of all foreign conflicts. But now you want the US to dive in again? Make up your mind. Anyway, I am sure that Brandon will be getting advice from the people that really know WTF is going on, and I don't mean any of the politicians or any of us on CSR. I mean the US military and the CIA. The POTUS ultimately makes the calls, but only an idiot POTUS would make a call on his own.
Click to expand...
Peace thru strength.
 
Creekwood said:
I take no offense. I agree we are lucky. And Canada does what it can on the world military stage. We were there in Afghanistan, Korea, WW1 and WW2. We don't have the military might of the US, but we try to punch above our weight class. And I can absolutely guarantee that if the US was ever attacked, we would be right at your side, with whatever might we have. So when your pipsqueak neighbor says we have your back, we mean it. So does all of NATO members.

All of NATO is hooked at the hip and we have all benefited from the world peace that has resulted. Yes, the US has been the global leader and for the most part you are proud of that, and you should be. And yes, many countries have not kept up with military spending levels that are supposed to be agreed to.

The NATO Treaty is worth a re-read. It was basically the US that wrote it.

The North Atlantic Treaty
Washington D.C. - 4 April 1949


The Parties to this Treaty reaffirm their faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all governments.

They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law. They seek to promote stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area.

They are resolved to unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security. They therefore agree to this North Atlantic Treaty :

Article 1
The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

Article 2
The Parties will contribute toward the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or all of them.

Article 3
In order more effectively to achieve the objectives of this Treaty, the Parties, separately and jointly, by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack.

Article 4
The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.

Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

Article 6 1
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
  • on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
  • on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Article 7
This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as affecting in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter of the Parties which are members of the United Nations, or the primary responsibility of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security.

Article 8
Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.

Article 9
The Parties hereby establish a Council, on which each of them shall be represented, to consider matters concerning the implementation of this Treaty. The Council shall be so organised as to be able to meet promptly at any time. The Council shall set up such subsidiary bodies as may be necessary; in particular it shall establish immediately a defence committee which shall recommend measures for the implementation of Articles 3 and 5.

Article 10
The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.

Article 11
This Treaty shall be ratified and its provisions carried out by the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional processes. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited as soon as possible with the Government of the United States of America, which will notify all the other signatories of each deposit. The Treaty shall enter into force between the States which have ratified it as soon as the ratifications of the majority of the signatories, including the ratifications of Belgium, Canada, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the United States, have been deposited and shall come into effect with respect to other States on the date of the deposit of their ratifications. (3)

Article 12
After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the North Atlantic area, including the development of universal as well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the United Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.

Article 13
After the Treaty has been in force for twenty years, any Party may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation.

Article 14
This Treaty, of which the English and French texts are equally authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the Government of the United States of America. Duly certified copies will be transmitted by that Government to the Governments of other signatories.

  1. The definition of the territories to which Article 5 applies was revised by Article 2 of the Protocol to the North Atlantic Treaty on the accession of Greece and Turkey signed on 22 October 1951.
  2. On January 16, 1963, the North Atlantic Council noted that insofar as the former Algerian Departments of France were concerned, the relevant clauses of this Treaty had become inapplicable as from July 3, 1962.
  3. The Treaty came into force on 24 August 1949, after the deposition of the ratifications of all signatory states.
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NATO is a freaking joke. Without the US it would be NADA. The US just uses it as a cover for it's operations.
 
germany and putin is swapping spit I think.
 
FKCdbgjXsAII7Md.jpeg
 
Germany is fucking all of us right now. They made an energy deal with the devil and now they are protecting their deal and the devil at the same time. Not good!
 
Dani-Lu said:
Germany Bidan is fucking all of us right now. They made an energy deal with the devil and now they are protecting their deal and the devil at the same time. Not good!
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Fixed it for you. Bidan waived the sanctions, allowing it to be completed...
 
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