Tuning-up my miserable KAD300

[melida]

Hi all.
As you recognize I have trouble to get on plane while diesel tank is full and or more then 2-3 people onboard.
Long story short I enlarged my trim tabs (with the great help of Henry Boyd and Dpmulvey from this board) is satisfactory. But still I have problem with getting on plane while heavily loaded or even with quarter tank of fuel and with 2 or 5-6 people across to strong head wind engine could not pass 2900rpm where I need to reach 3000rpm to get on plane.
I'm strictly thinking of repowering with Volvo Penta D6-370-DPH 370Hp 850NM engine, but paying for that engine and adding my boat's current value I could buy 2005-2007 300DA twin diesel +genny in my country. But I love my boat's design and easiness of single screw and less maintenance costs etc. want to keep it forever.
Before throwing that huge money want to solve my performance problem by miminimum cost level.
So I'm thinking to adding a chip for tune-up and googled and find a few sites providing tune-up kits for my engine. They offer to make my 285hp engine 320hp 12% gain and also torque increase.
Here is the question for experts does it worth it and would damage my engine or would I be happy with that modification?
Best regards.
Melida

 

[ImpulseIII]

Melida,

A bit off topic but my wife and I will be in Istanbul next month on a cruise. We're taking a "tram" from the ship to the city and I was wondering if you have any "must see's" for tourists.

Thanks

Frank H.

 

[Turtlesboat]

Hi all.
As you recognize I have trouble to get on plane while diesel tank is full and or more then 2-3 people onboard.
Long story short I enlarged my trim tabs (with the great help of Henry Boyd and Dpmulvey from this board) is satisfactory. But still I have problem with getting on plane while heavily loaded or even with quarter tank of fuel and with 2 or 5-6 people across to strong head wind engine could not pass 2900rpm where I need to reach 3000rpm to get on plane.
I'm strictly thinking of repowering with Volvo Penta D6-370-DPH 370Hp 850NM engine, but paying for that engine and adding my boat's current value I could buy 2005-2007 300DA twin diesel +genny in my country. But I love my boat's design and easiness of single screw and less maintenance costs etc. want to keep it forever.
Before throwing that huge money want to solve my performance problem by miminimum cost level.
So I'm thinking to adding a chip for tune-up and googled and find a few sites providing tune-up kits for my engine. They offer to make my 285hp engine 320hp 12% gain and also torque increase.
Here is the question for experts does it worth it and would damage my engine or would I be happy with that modification?
Best regards.
Melida

What if you took a little pitch out of your props? You'd lose a little top end but it would help get you on plane. Frank could help you if you give him a tour on the boat so he could "evaluate it"

 

[OldSkool]

Change the prop before doing a bunch of engine work that may not help. If the prop doesn't help you can always resale it. Not so with the engine parts.

 

[melida]

Frank.
It will be a great pleasure to have you and your wife as a guest in my country. I hope you’ll admire to where I live and other CSR members would come to visit after your comments.
Istanbul is a link between two continents. One side is Europe and one is Asia. I live in Asia side and work at European side. Every they I travel to the two continents. Also Istanbul was a cradle of many empires and civilizations, such as East Rome, Byzantine and Ottoman etc.
The place for cruise ships port is at the sea side of city center where my office is near to there. As you wrote by taking tram you could quickly visit the touristic places.
If you have 5-6 hours break I strictly suggest you to visit TOPKAPI PALACE, HAGIA SOPHIA (mosque!!!), SULTAN AHMET MOSQUE and SULTAN AHMET SQUARE, BASILICA CISTERN, ARCHAEOLOGICAL MUSEUM, KAPALI CARSI, MISIR CARSISI. All of them are on the same route of tram and you could visit them by tram and walking, no need to take a taxi or rent a car.
This places are on one side of the Golden Horn and there is estuary cutting it and connected by two different bridges where you’ll see and pass on it by tram.
TOPKAPI PALACE is the famous Ottoman Kings’ palace and now it’s turned to a museum where you can see everything about the time line of 1299-1923. Especially ask for the guide to show you the “KASIKCI ELMASI” spoon’s diamond which is one of the 22 world’s famous diamonds.
ARCHAEOLOGICAL MUSEUM is very near to Topkapı Palace. You can see there in the whole time line of art of Ottoman Empire.
HAGIA SOPHIA was a Byzantine church until Ottoman King Mehmet the Conqueror got the city and then changed it to a mosque by busting the bell towers and adding minarets. But it’s still good to visit where you can goggle how a mixed church-mosque is.
SULTAN AHMET MOSQUE is on the SULTAN AHMET SQUARE. It got its name by the time’s Ottoman king. The mosque called in English “BLUE MOSQUE” and tram has a stop called same name where is one of most visited places by tourists.
BASILICA CISTERN is sunken palace of Byzantine and Ottoman where you must see.
“KAPALI CARSI” translated to English as “grand bazaar” which is left from Byzantine Empire and then Ottoman’s and now it is the center for gold market. You’ll find every kind of jewelers, fabric sellers, traditional Anatolian and Turkish carpets and lots of traditional souvenir items.
MISIR CARSISI is translated to English as “covered bazaar” where sold every kind of spices and also traditional Anatolian and Turkish tastes.
Above I mentioned is for fast and short tour of must see places. If you have time I recommend you to see the other side of Golden Horn which your cruise ship will port there. Take the “TUNEL” or French “Grand Rue de Pera" tunnel made in 17th century world’s first tram. Its only one stop and then you will be at “BEYOGLU” originally “PERA“. It takes you to the historical street of Istanbul “ISTIKLAL CADDESI” where you’ll see the building for more then 100 years and still have original shape and color. Take a break there and have a lunch or dinner or at least a snack at the roof of a café to watch the scenery of Bosporus over the city.
"GALATA KULESİ" Galata Tower is the end of the "TUNEL" and its built in year 507 as light house by Bztanine. Later changed to a tower and now its a good place to whatch the Golden Horn.
If you have more time take a Bosporus ferry for 2-3 hours cruises around the Bosporus and would took amazing pictures of the city from sea. Also have a dinner at a restaurant at the shore of Bosporus.
If you could arrange/have time for me, me and my wife would like to have a boat trip of around the Bosporus and have dinner at a restaurant where could go with my boat.
I’ll pm my cell phone number and email to you, to reach me when you’ll come.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[melida]

Turtle and OldSkool,
Thanks for the comments.
I know that my problem is due to weight issue. Boat accelerates untill 2800-2900 rpm perfect and then waits forever.
Volvo Penta has its props scale from C2 to C8 for my engine for different speed intervals, maybe I should by a custom prop set.
My boat is sold with and I currently have C4 set. Later I searched boatdiesel.com and saw that a few people with same setup of mine in different European countries have same problem. And they solved it by buying C3 prop set, also I bought.
BUT didn't satisfied. Because with C4 set I plane at 3000rpm and with C3 at 3500rpm. My engine has rated 3900rpm at wot and suggested maximum extended fast cruise speed is %10 less then wot. So it makes 3500rpm.
So with C3 set I'm still cruising with same speed of C4 and could not fast cruise more then 3500 rpm for not damaging the engine.
So I don't want to use the C3 set.
Tomorrow I'm gonna dive and wipe the hull with sponge which became brown and then add a shim between the actuator and trim tab to lower the lab 1/2 or 1cm. Maybe it will help.
I also heard that tuning/opening up the injection pump could help to increase HP and torque. Is it possible or a city legend.
Best regars.
Melida

 

[Turtlesboat]

With this boat, the bottom and running gear needs to be clean. Also move the stuff in the back of the boat to the front of the boat. Put the heavy stuff in the forward storage compartments.

 

[Pietro]

So I'm thinking to adding a chip for tune-up and googled and find a few sites providing tune-up kits for my engine. They offer to make my 285hp engine 320hp 12% gain and also torque increase.
Here is the question for experts does it worth it and would damage my engine or would I be happy with that modification?
Best regards.
Melida

Chipping is very popular in Europe for our diesel cars, but I would doubt about the reliability on the long run. Volvo engines are already offer high performance with a high power to displacement ratio...
On the other side chipping would be the last thing to try before going to a twin engined boa.

 

[melida]

Turtle,
You wrote what I always try to do.
Every weekend when I raft up, dive and clean the props, tabs, leg and water line of hull and also the bow thruster tunnel.
I can realize by the fuel consumption that this boat does not let the dirty bottom.
I also have minimum level of unfixed stuff which are always pretty forward.
Now the hull is dirty but I remember 1,5 month ago with loaded fuel+water, 5-6 people on board while planing I gathered all them at helm alo made them sit on vberth to reach 3000rpm. And boat did it.
Tomorrow gonna test again after cleaning the hull.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[melida]

Pietro,
You're right about it.
But cost of holding twin engine boat is too expensive in my country, because of that you can see diesel boats beginning from 240DA in my country.
I'm searching about info of chip tuning and waiting comments from diesel experts.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[BonBini]

Sounds like your knowledgeable enough about clean bottoms, trim tabs, drive trim and basic boat handling as it pertains to getting a boat up on plain.

From what your telling us, it does sound like your engine is abit under powered for the your boat.

Just so I can get a better feel for your situation: When she's stalled out at 2900 trying to get the boat up, how much black smoke are you putting out the stern? Also how well of a burn (visual black smoke) are you getting at cruise and wot?

 

[Lord Farringdon]

Warning: Long Post:smt024

Hi Melida,
You seem to be having a few problems with planing and I note you have asked for advice on a number of different
forums. I also note one of the answers you recieved was from a member with a DP44 powered 310DA (280DA in the
US) His engine is similar to our KAD300's and he has the same hull as you. He said he cruised at 3200rpm on the
plane at 18-22kt speed depending on sea/wave/wind conditions. I can confirm that I also cruise on the plane at
3200 rpm at 21-22kts in my KAD 300 powered 270AJ (Amberjack). The difference between the KAD 44 and the KAD 300
are horsepower (260 vs 285),injectors, and EDC software to drive the new injection pump in the KAD 300,
delivering the higher power and better fuel efficiency. (This is from the full workshop manual which I have).
Hull design between the 310DA and the 270 AJ is similar but not the same. Both have a 21 degree deadrise but
the 310DA has a 9 foot 5 inch beam while the 270 AJ has a narrower beam of 8 foot 6 inches. THe 310DA is also
one foot longer in overall length but I'm not sure if that equates to any significant waterline length
differnce between the two hulls. I'm no hull expert but the different beams might explain the stern drive trim
down draft of 33 inches on the 310DA compared to 44 inches on the 270 AJ. That's Mercruiser stern drives
presumably, but I guess there will be similar differences with the Volvo Penta DP-G which we have. An expert
might be able to chime in and explain if these hull comparisons would make any significant difference to the
amount power necessary for either of the two hulls to get out of the hole. Sitting deeper in the water, I would
think the 270AJ has more water to push out of the way and needed more power to do this than the 310DA. But
there is one other significant difference between the hulls. Dry weight for the 310DA is 8000lbs while it is
only 7325 lbs for the 270 AJ.

Both the 310DA and the 270AJ have a 106 litre water capacity and a fuel capacity of 378 litres. Therefore, full
tanks means the same for both hulltypes.
I guess what this data tells us is that a DP44 can push along a 310DA hull at much the same as a KAD300 in a
270 AJ hull. The KAD 300 is probably more fuel efficient and given the same hulls, clean bottoms and same trim
configuration, the KAD 300 would probably give a few extra knots. Neither myself (270AJ/KAD 300) or the forum
member mentioned above (310DA/DP44), have any difficultly getting on the plane and staying there at 3200 rpm
with 18 to 22 kts on the GPS, 4 adults and full tanks. So this brings us to your problem Melida. Why does your
310DA/KAD 300 perform so poorly that you feel the need to repower or to change the chip in the EDC?
In my view, there are only three reasons a boat will not plane. Either the engine is not performing correctly,
there is too much drag on the hull or the prop pitch is not optimal.

Engine not performing correctly.

The supercharger (compressor) provides that extra power to get out of the hole. It recognises that the size of
the turbocharger is such that it cannot spin fast enough to provide enough boost air at low rpms. Therefore,
the supercharger's on and off periods are specifically designed to give extra boost while trying to accelerate
out of the hole and to shut off once the turbocharger has spun up to sufficient speed to provide adequate
boost. So, if the supercharger is not working prooperly, you will be struggling to get sufficent power to shoot
the hole. The supercharger has an electromagnetic clutch much the same as an air con pump on a car. This clutch
engages or disengages the supercharger. If the clutch is faulty that, may be your problem.
There may be other reasons for the engine not performing to specifications (blocked air intake/filter etc) but
the supercharger will have an immediate affect.

Too much drag on the hull.
This covers a number of problems including, marine growth on the hull, over trimming with tabs and excessive
boat weight. Overloading the boat can happen easily and while the boat may be certified to carry up to ten
passengers, even 6-7 ( as you have said you carry sometimes) is a lot of weight in a boat of this size. It's
also likely all that extra human weight is in the back of the boat which is the last place you need it. I would
expect to have problems planing if I regularly carried this many people and their gear (and full tanks) on my
boat.

Prop Pitch
I don't know what prop pitch the forum member I mentioned above had on his 310DA/DP44 but I'll bet it was
somewhere near a C4 prop set. DP44's do not have C2 and C3 prop set options whereas the KAD 300 does. I have a C2 fitted on my 270AJ/KAD300. If I don't overload the boat too much I could possibly sneak up to C3 In contrast you are running a 310DA/KAD300 with a C4 prop set. At this point the most important thing to understand is that less pitch means more rpm's, more pitch means less rpms. For your boat to perform at its peak, you need to run at the upper end of your engine's recommended rpm range. In our case that means we need a propellor that will allow the KAD300
to operate close to 3900 rpm WOT. For sustained cruise operations we should operate at 10 percent below WOT at
about 3500 rpm. You indicated in one of your posts that you preferred the C4 prop set because you could run at
WOT and only reach 3500 rpm thus giving a high cruise speed of 25-27 kts while keeping engine RPM 10 percent
below max 3900 rpm. That's fine, but the trade off for top end speed is that you don't have enough propellor
rpm to get you out of the hole. You are effectively stalling the motor just as if you were trying to drive a
car up a steep hill in top gear. Note: Volvo has a prop set range from C2 to C7 for the KAD 300.

My Assessment
My assessment Melida is that your primary problem is that you have the wrong prop set fitted. The boat will
always struggle to shoot the hole but will be further aggravated if you have some heavy passenger loadings. I
would check your supercharger clutch as well. I am pretty sure if you drop down to the C3 or even the C2 set
you will find getting out of the hole will no longer be a problem. On the other hand you will lose your top end
speed. If you have enough money to spend on a repower then you probably have enough money to buy a boat with a
gas engine if speed is what you would you prefer. I do not think changing the software in your EDC to be a
particualrly good idea. It's unlikley to give a vast improvement, and would probably raise more fuel injection
problems than it solved.

I tried to attach a chart which shows the speeds achieved with different prop pitches on the KAD300, but the 19.5 kb upload limit made the image unreadable. The KAD 300 can be fitted with C2, C3,C4,C5,C6 and C7 props. The chart showed a C7 prop should give a speed of 40 -43 kts (taking 10-20 percent slippage into account) but I am not sure under what circumstances you would have such a coarse pitched prop attached to a KAD300?


Hope this all helps :smt001


Terry

Edit: Volvo prop chart added:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x374/lord_farringdon/VolvoPentaPropGuide.jpg

 

[melida]

Ron,
On saturday I dived and cleaned all the hull which was totaly mud. Wiped and brown mud gone and clean black antifouling came back. Also cleaned the seaweed/algae from waterline and trim tabs, props and leg. Boat turned to day one.
In all conditions you've asked there is absoloutly no black smoke and smell of exhaust.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[melida]

Terry,
Great thanks for having time and writing down this detailed long post.
I also asked about my problem in another forum and got answer from a member who has the same boat as mine however his engine might be 240hp according to Searay 2002 specs. It’s a huge shame that my KAD300 is not doing well while KAD44 does.
Saturday I cleaned/wiped with sponge all the mud of hull and cleaned the seaweed/algae from waterline and trim tabs, props and leg. So the boat has clean bottom.
One new problem arised is engine is not passing 3000rpm now. Speeds up to 2800rpm quickly then very difficultly comes to 3000rpm while there is only me onboard and glass water. Thought that engine was not getting sufficient air however I have more air intakes at sides then the gas versions of my boat also opened the engine hatch to allow extra air but didn’t helped. Heard from a forum a boat owner with MANs faced same because of dirty after cooler and then he cleaned and drained the after coolers and turbo started to work properly.
Compressor is working properly and starting at 1500rpm and stops at 2500-2600rpm and turbo starts. But now around 2800rpm still compressor is acting and there is a very little voice coming from turbo’s propeller/pal like a computers fan or a car engine cooling fan. So turbo is not working.
Tomorrow, Volvo Penta technician will come and clean/flush the after cooler, checking and measuring the pressure of turbo boost, inspecting compressor clutch and disassemble the turbo, injectors and injection pump and take them to workshop and do what they need to fix if they cause the problem.
If all of these are ok (I don’t think so) or after fixing them still face acceleration problem, then gonna take the C4 set to a prop shop to make them depiching to cruise at 3000rpm wot at 3900rpm. If it's impossible then I have C3 set at my office and will put them.
While writing these, I’ve got an email alert from other forum where another person with same boat powered with KAD44 wrote has no problem of getting on plane and not worrying while heavily loaded.
I’m gonna loose my mind.
Wish me luck.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[Pietro]

Melida, how many hours on the engine? My experience with Volvos is one of turbos needing frequent cleaning as well the aftercooler. I ended doing so every season!!!

 

[melida]

Melida, how many hours on the engine? My experience with Volvos is one of turbos needing frequent cleaning as well the aftercooler. I ended doing so every season!!!

Pietro,
Its only 283 hours now, but its 2005 built.
Maybe I should done it as you do every season.
This problem is making me sick I'm gonna have the second gastric bleeding because of this.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[BonBini]

Melida: Getting a Volvo Tech on board sounds like a good move at this point. That little KAD300 has allot going on with its supercharged/turbocharged forced induction system and two stage fuel injection.

IMO... Asking 285 diesel hp out of a 3.6 Liter sounds a little much. And then to juice it with some aftermarket program may take the fun out of boating for you.

When you know your engine is right, I would look closely at what Terry posted. He made some very good points on prop choices. I feel being a little under propped is the way to go. This way you have a little hp in reserve for the times your boat is a little overloaded or heavy seas.

Let us know...

 

[melida]

Ron,
Thanks for the info.
Today is cancelled because the VP mech gave priority for another customer whose boat was burned sunday and the customer is also at the hospital. So he'll be onboard monday.
I've noted all the comments and recommendations and will be together with the mech to check step by step what is and what will solve the problem.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[Lord Farringdon]

Melida, how many hours on the engine? My experience with Volvos is one of turbos needing frequent cleaning as well the aftercooler. I ended doing so every season!!!

Hmmm....you"ve got my attention :wow:. Melida's engine has done 283 hours. Mine has done 132 hours and was also built in 2005. When you say the turbo's need cleaning seasonly, I assume you mean the exhaust side of the turbo? Can you explain to me a little more what your experience was in this regard? Is it a tuning, fuel or type of use problem eg lots of idling causing gunking? Or is it a weakness in the turbo design? I know these turbos don't like dirty oil so regular oil changes should ensure a healthy turbo but perhaps your experience might suggest poor oil distrubution?




Terry

 

[Pietro]

Hmmm....you"ve got my attention :wow:. Melida's engine has done 283 hours. Mine has done 132 hours and was also built in 2005. When you say the turbo's need cleaning seasonly, I assume you mean the exhaust side of the turbo? Can you explain to me a little more what your experience was in this regard? Is it a tuning, fuel or type of use problem eg lots of idling causing gunking? Or is it a weakness in the turbo design? I know these turbos don't like dirty oil so regular oil changes should ensure a healthy turbo but perhaps your experience might suggest poor oil distrubution?


Terry

First, I’m with Ron on the too many horsepower for displacement. Volvos are too powerful and complicated in my opinion.
My experience is one of engines always in need of new fuel filters and cleaning turbos. Yes the exhaust side and sometimes the fresh air side. I also had problems with the intercoolers...
Mine were no-electronic units. I remember that after a few full tanks there was a black slime coming out of the exhausts...that meant need for new filters and cleaning of the turbines...
A close friend of mine has now a Fairline with the supercharger/turbo combo... he his always struggling with the fuel pump, injectors and the turbo casting cracking...
I do not want to state that Volvos, especially the little ones, are crap...just that they need a lot of maintenance and tuning.