Truck diesel engine maintenance

[Gunn]

Jason started a thread a few months ago http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37626 talking about gas engines versus diesels with some good discussion. I still haven't purchased my new truck yet, and am still waffling on the issue of diesel versus gas. The one thing I still haven't got a clear answer on is maintenance of a diesel engine (specifically the Duramax diesel, as I'll be buying a used GMC Sierra 2500 or Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD).

I've talked to a lot of people, and through it all, I pretty much have a 50/50 on going gas versus diesel. I leaned one way, then the other. Then I decided it didn't matter and I'd take it out of the "requirements". But I'm still curious.

The one thing I'm not at all familiar with...maintenance costs of a diesel engine. I've heard they have more oil capacity, and maybe an additional oil filter? I've read a lot about replacing injectors? Are the maintenance costs going to make me want a gas engine for what I'll be doing with it, which is mostly daily trips to work, a few 1000mile round trips to visit family and an 8 mile one way trip to put the 280 in and out once a year?

What is "high mileage" for a diesel? Should I steer clear of one with 100k? I'd rather not buy a gas with 100k, but not sure how that relates to diesel...

Those are the types of questions I'm interested in hearing some opinions on.

Thanks!

Tom

 

[jitts3]

I would go gas. There are many reasons. First of all let me say I am an independant trucker who owns 2 Peterbilts. I have experience in this. 2003 was the last year you could get a good diesel in class 8 trucks without the EGR or Caterpillars ACERT. These emissions engines burn more fuel and have much more downtime associated with them. I don't know the cuttoff year on HD pick ups.
The last 2-3 years diesels have had Diesel Particulate Filters. This encludes pick up trucks. You can recognise them by the air vents at the tailpipe. You will also see them on heavy trucks.
All the above costs a fortune and effects nothing on the effectiveness of the truck.
Parts are very expensive on diesels. If you keep the truck a long time and need to replace the engine...sell your 1st born.
Diesel is expensive compared to gas. With the news focusing only on the price of gas the oil company's jack the cost of diesel. Funny how diesel is made from the garbage left over from refining gas. I can go on all day on diesel fuel cost.
I didn'n see where you are from but when it gets cold. Sub zero, diesel gels up.
To conclude, gas is cheaper in maintenance and per gallon. But you nurn more of it. Consumption and cost wise it is a push. (Same either way). Add maintenance. Diesel cost way more.
Stick with gas

 

[FireIsland1]

i have 2 2004 dodge rams, #1 is 2500 hemi - #2 is 3500 cummins HO i do not put a lot of miles on either one.

not a duramax but a good comparison

here goes: both have been trouble free. #1 blew trany right off the bat. covered under warranty

gas heats up much faster, makes short trips in the winter better.

the hemi can smoke the tires. lots of off line power

the trany in the hemi is always shifting, and always in overdrive. i have to take it out of OD all the time or i might drive it into a wall

both trucks can pull a house no problem.

the cummins feels better, more solid, shifts proper, lots of torque and makes me feel like i have a bigger ---- .

milage local driving which is what i do most is 9 hemi 14 diesel

maintenance is little difference. a little more oil and an extra filter for the diesel.

if i was to buy a #3 truck it would be a diesel.

resale is major + for the diesel no matter what the milage is.

if you spend 5 g's more for the diesel, you will get it all back later and sell in 1 day

my son just bought a duramax today

just some thoughts

 

[FireIsland1]

i have 2 2004 dodge rams, #1 is 2500 hemi - #2 is 3500 cummins HO i do not put a lot of miles on either one.

not a duramax but a good comparison

here goes: both have been trouble free. #1 blew trany right off the bat. covered under warranty

gas heats up much faster, makes short trips in the winter better.

the hemi can smoke the tires. lots of off line power

the trany in the hemi is always shifting, and always in overdrive. i have to take it out of OD all the time or i might drive it into a wall

both trucks can pull a house no problem.

the cummins feels better, more solid, shifts proper, lots of torque and makes me feel like i have a bigger ---- .

milage local driving which is what i do most is 9 hemi 14 diesel

maintenance is little difference. a little more oil and an extra filter for the diesel.

if i was to buy a #3 truck it would be a diesel.

resale is major + for the diesel no matter what the milage is.

if you spend 5 g's more for the diesel, you will get it all back later and sell in 1 day

my son just bought a duramax today

just some thoughts

 

[popeye]

I just sold a '97 cummins dodge 3500 club cab, 347,000 miles. Never had the valve covers off. Currently have a '93 3500 diesel crew cab with 165,000 miles. Would use nothing else.....

 

[Lazy Daze]

Love my diesel. I can't see ever going back to gas. I get roughly twice the mileage of a comparable gas engine. I've had mine since 2002 and have yet to see maintenance being anything out of the ordinary when compared to a gasser (I only have one oil filter)... except I don't have to buy spark plugs! With the Duramax, stick with an '06 or '07 (just before new emissions stuff, but the '06 represents the latest and greatest version... Look for engine code LBZ).

 

[Quint4]

I am real happy with my 2004 Duramax. It takes 11 qts of oil. GM had some injector failures on some yrs of the Duramax and they extended the injector warranty to 100k miles. I bought it with 59k on it and it has 82k now. I have had no problems.
For towing, nothing beats diesel. My truck is heavy and has enough torq to pull a house over.
The current price of diesel is painful and certainly is part of the equation. 100k miles on a diesel is nothing.

 

[Sundancer]

2006 Duramax and we tow every weekend. In fact, I just towed our travel trailer from Spokane, WA to New Jersey 2,800 miles the last week of January. I've towed with 454's and the diesel is just so much more relaxing. No worrying about shift points, rpms or hills. You just go and let the truck worry about all of that. If I was only towing once a year, I might rethink that. We keep the 300 DA on the trailer at the house and often don't know which lake we are going to until we hit the first stop sign. We rarely ever go to the same lake and that towing ability is what makes it so fun. We don't worry about it, we just go. With the 454's and the old 250 DA it was adequate, but the 3500 DMax and 300 DA are so much EASIER to move. Yes it's a wide load, but there is no comparison.

Maintenance isn't that much different either really. Yes, 11 quarts every 10,000 miles, vs 7 quarts every 5,000. To me, it's a wash. I do replace my fuel filter myself, but that's easily done and not hard to do. I did have one injector go that was fixed under warranty. No problems or concerns since then. I'd stay away from any "new" engines by Ford or any with the new particulate standards. Just give them some time to work out the "particulate" bugs! Less horsepower and additional "equipment" to worry about and maintain. The diesel should go to 300,000 or so and anything around 100K is just getting broken in!

 

[my3sons]

Tom,
I wouldn't worry too much about life of the motors or if 100,000 miles is too much miles to buy used. I have bought 8 new pick up trucks as my personal daily driver (that I also use for business) since 1975.
Every one except the first one, was driven between 225,000 and 250,000 miles.None were ever in the shop for motor work except routine maintennance.
Both gas and diesel motors are easily capable of reaching that , and beyond.
I get new trucks at that interval because the drivers seat is worn out, they're starting to get noisy (rattles and squeaks), and other things are starting to need replacement. They are usually around five years old then and I want another one.. just because.
What ever you decide on, just be sure to get it checked out good by an independant mechanic, that knows the engine you choose.

FWIW....for the type of use you specified above, I would go gas.
If you think you might tow more, that would be different.
Good luck

 

[tdappleman]

I think when you get into realistic mileage the difference isn't quite as great as some would like to believe. I've got a V10 gasser and get 11-12 around town and 13-14.5 on the highway. I decided on the gas due to problems with the 6.0 diesel engine they put in the Excursions and I couldn't find a good 7.3 close to me. The diesels have a $3k-$5k price premium on them due to the resell values mentioned above. Add the fact that diesel is priced higher (significantly so in some areas) and you may not be saving the money you thought you would. Add to that the higher maintenance numbers and you may have an eye opening experience.

Here's a few things to keep in mind:
Oil changes on diesels take 9.5 to 10 quarts on the Duramax to 14-15 on the Powerstrokes. The filters are more expensive and you also need to replace the fuel filters more often - every 15k or so depending on the fuel quality in your area.

Fuel usage:

Gas: Assume an average MPG of 12
Gas prices are 3.14 in my area and assume 10k miles per year
10000 miles / 12 mpg = 833 gallons used * 3.14 = $2616 per year in fuel costs

Diesel: Assume an average MPG of 16
Diesel prices are 3.49 in my area and assume 10k miles per year
10000 miles / 16 mpg = 625 gallons used * 3.49 = $2181 per year in fuel costs

So just in fuel you will save ~$435 in fuel costs. If you take into account the initial price difference of 3-4k up front - say $3k for this post: 3000/435 = 6.9 years to break even on fuel costs.

The basic maintenance may be a null point if you truly need the torque of the diesel. However - my V10 is rated to tow 12000 lbs so I didn't need anything different. Your results may vary - just giving an alternative view. I see a lot of claims on mileage - but the average I've seen on the trucks is ~16 MPG.

 

[Lazy Daze]

Travis, I was referring to friends that have had Suburbans/Trucks with a 454. The consistently tell me that they get 8-9mpg around town and 9-10 on the highway. I get about 15 around town and about 20 on the highway (about two mpg less on winter fuel). With the trucks we have at work (various years of D-Max, the '06 being the best) we get even higher than that. Without doing the math, even accounting for higher diesel prices (grrr!!!!), I'm sure I'm ahead of the game.

 

[floriduramax1]

My fuel can be 12mpg if I'm playing with the ricers but if I drive "normal" and keep my foot out I can average 16 in town stop and go and 18-21 hwy depending on many variables. Funny thing is, when I let my father in law use it for a while, it comes back showing 20-21 all the time:huh:

I will never own another gas truck! This thing is just flat out fun! As was stated earlier, stay with 06-07 obs(old body style). Don't be afraid of a 06 with a RPO engine code of LLY (as is mine). This is a "detuned LBZ. Same engine and 6 speed. EFI Live can fix that little difference for ya...lol Be real careful buying. Look for gauges on the drivers pillar. If they were smart and put on a new pillar, check the passenger side exhaust manifold, back end for a pipe plug where the thermocouple for exhaust gas temps might have been installed. I gave you a web site to check and it is very thorough about the signs. Once you have a "hopped" up turbo diesel truck, you wont want to drive anything else!!! Vettes, Beamers, Stangs or anything else just wont do it for ya..lol

 

[firecadet613]

Gunn, go with a gas.

I was faced with this decision last year. My truck is my daily driver, and tows our boat every weekend. I was looking at '06-'07 Ram 2500s. Price wise, for $22,900 I could get a diesel with 130k miles, or a gas with about 60k. I ended up getting a steal on a gas with 30k miles on it from a private seller. As nice as the diesel would have been for towing, there was no way I could justify that many more miles on it. The trucks body is still the trucks body, and mileage takes a toll on it, especially towing mileage.

 

[Gunn]

Here's a few things to keep in mind:
Oil changes on diesels take 9.5 to 10 quarts on the Duramax to 14-15 on the Powerstrokes. The filters are more expensive and you also need to replace the fuel filters more often - every 15k or so depending on the fuel quality in your area.

Fuel usage:

Gas: Assume an average MPG of 12
Gas prices are 3.14 in my area and assume 10k miles per year
10000 miles / 12 mpg = 833 gallons used * 3.14 = $2616 per year in fuel costs

Diesel: Assume an average MPG of 16
Diesel prices are 3.49 in my area and assume 10k miles per year
10000 miles / 16 mpg = 625 gallons used * 3.49 = $2181 per year in fuel costs

So just in fuel you will save ~$435 in fuel costs. If you take into account the initial price difference of 3-4k up front - say $3k for this post: 3000/435 = 6.9 years to break even on fuel costs.

Great info everyone! I've already learned a lot. The calculations above are great and like ones I have done myself too, and my fuel prices and the differences between the two, or pretty much the same here today.

Since I would be buying used (I've been looking for around '03 to '07), and paying that increased markup for the diesel cost, I assume I'd get a portion of that back when I would go to resell it. Plus, the 6.9 years to break even works for me, as I plan to keep it that long easily. My current 1500 Silverado is a 1997 that I purchased in 1999. I still love that truck (it now has 149k on it), but I just need and have wanted a 3/4 ton for quite awhile. I don't see any reason, after purchasing this next truck to need a further "upgrade".

So you guys have cleared up the oil changing and fuel filter questions I had for the most part. Is it really common to go 10,000 miles between oil changes in the diesel?

Also, I'd like to hear more about these injectors; why have I heard so much about them being replaced, or being troublesome? Is this old news and anything say '04 and up should be fine? A common thing I've heard is sometimes they need replaced after ~100k. Why would this be so?

Oh, and it's either the 6.0 gas of the 6.6 Duramax diesel for me; I'm steering clear of the 454 option, just don't see the point.

Thanks again,

Tom

 

[tdappleman]

Travis, I was referring to friends that have had Suburbans/Trucks with a 454. The consistently tell me that they get 8-9mpg around town and 9-10 on the highway.

Yeah - the 454 and 8.1 are a bit thirstier than mine! I've seen some of the trucks getting high teens and into the twenties if on highway, etc - I went with the average I've seen.

If I bump it up to 19:
10000/19= 526 gallons * 3.49 = $1835 in annual fuel costs or (2616 - 1835) $781 less a year in fuel costs. Take the initial purchase price delta of $3k and you are looking at 3.8 years to break even on just fuel savings. If you purchase a new one then it's a completely different story as the diesel option is much more than $3k.

It comes down to personal tastes - a modded diesel truck is a lot of fun to drive. However - repairs and maintenance are much more expensive and need to be taken into account. I knew I wanted an Excursion and couldn't find a 7.3 near me like I wanted and knew I didn't want the 6.0 so I went with the V10 and haven't regretted it at all. It's a little slower off the line but it works for me since I have mainly short trips and it sometimes sits for days at a time which isn't good for the newer diesel trucks.

 

[Lazy Daze]

If you purchase a new one then it's a completely different story as the diesel option is much more than $3k.

You're not kidding... The last time I checked it was something like $7K or $8K! But, for some people, a gasser just won't cut it and they have to pony up. Gunn made a good point that a diesel will have a higher resale, so that does help to offset it.

I never would of guessed that your mileage was that good with that V-10 - that's great that you're getting that mileage!

I don't think the "sitting for days" really has any effect on a diesel. But, you're right, taking only short trips is not good... although that's not good for any engine.

Although I'll never steer anyone away from a diesel, for the way that the OP is going to use his truck I can see why he is on the fence when it comes to diesel or gas. For me, I know I'm ahead of the game when it comes to cost outlay. But even if I was somewhat on the negative side, I'd still take comfort in how long the engine is going to last - knowing that I plan to keep this truck for a long time. For someone that only is into it for a few years, then that equation changes.

I think it's like a "bug" - once you get bitten by the diesel bug you never want something else... or maybe it's a sickness...:lol:

Gunn, just keep in mind that you're towing weight will likely be in the 12,000+ range. From a safety standpoint, as long as you're buying a truck with an ample margin of error you're fine. In other words, don't buy something with a 12,000lb rating - it's best to give yourself some room if you end up having more weight in the boat or in the truck. There's always debate over how accurate these ratings are, and I do think there's wiggle room, but better safe than sorry, you know?

 

[tdappleman]

The sitting and not being used statement was more for those diesels which have the newer emissions on them - EGRs and the new DPFs. Idling for long periods of time can also be an issue. Things have gotten a lot better now that diesel fuel itself is a bit cleaner but it's still something to be aware of.

 

[D-Sill-D]

By design, diesels are just a "mellower" engine....you probably know this but I haven't seen it mentioned....diesels are a "compression" engine....

all construction machinery is diesel....emergency power generators (hospitals) are all powered by diesel engines....for longevity and reliability they just can't be beat....

But if you are only driving 10 miles I don't think you will reap many benefits from owning a diesel engine.....

I would never expect a diesel to do anything until it is nice and warm....after that it will run, seemingly effortlessly, for hours, days, months and years when properly maintained.....

if long periods of run time, and ownership, are serious factors....normal maintenance and fuel costs are pocket change....:huh:

 

[Lazy Daze]

Ah, I see. I'm not up to speed on the newer stuff - and, quite frankly, I hope I never have to be! But, can I assume it's a heat thing? Seeing as a diesel doesn't create much heat at idle, I mean. Do the traps get plugged up faster?

 

[Gunn]

Gunn, just keep in mind that you're towing weight will likely be in the 12,000+ range. From a safety standpoint, as long as you're buying a truck with an ample margin of error you're fine. In other words, don't buy something with a 12,000lb rating - it's best to give yourself some room if you end up having more weight in the boat or in the truck. There's always debate over how accurate these ratings are, and I do think there's wiggle room, but better safe than sorry, you know?

All great info. And I hear you on the safety factor. If I wasn't thinking about it, I'd sure love to just tow my boat home the 10 miles with my 1/2 ton truck! And believe me, I've been tempted....but that just doesn't seem like a smart thing to even try. :smt001 .