This Smoking Ban Craze Has Gone Too Far!

[JediJD]

JG, delighted to try and have an open discussion about this. Quick answer to your question about second hand smoke...no. I have a background in mathematics and do not believe it is nearly as bad as we have been led to believe. After reading the epidemiological studies, you would have to decide that for yourself. Here is a good starting point.

http://www.davehitt.com/facts/truth.html

Having said that, I do not believe that noxious odors of any kind are productive. Badly tuned diesels, unwashed Frenchmen, sulfuric volcanic eruptions...and cigarettes...all unpleasant and possibly deadly in a confined area. As long as you drive a car, I believe you are emitting thousands of times more fumes into my air than a single smoker. Unless you roller skate and kayak, I simply find the hypocrisy of complaining about second hand smoke to be astounding. I do not like the SMELL of cigarettes and generall avoid areas where they are congregated. I am no more worried about my health than I am at a gas station smelling gasoline.

The core of my belief set is that restricting a freedom to make a choice should be the very last option. Life is very short. If someone wants to take the chance of shortening it by risky behaviors, or extending it by an ascetic life...that is their choice, and other than reproducing, the most profound choice available to a human. Thus, smoking in an open air area, or at a business catering to the practice...doesn't bother me in the least. It frustrates me that places that allow cigarettes do not allow my favorite pastime...an occasional very expensive cigar.

 

[avguy]

Inside or Outside:thumbsup::grin:

Chuck if there is such a thing as a considerate smoker I'm it. Even back in the day when restaurants allowed smoking I would go outside to smoke. I don't smoke in my house or anyone else's. No butts on the ground and especially not in the lake.

About 20 yrs or so ago I actually quit for 6 weeks. It was the most miserable 6 weeks of my life. But in that short period of time my sense of taste & smell returned & I realized how obnoxious an odor cigarettes create. Business associates I'd known for years would stop by the office & I could smell the smoke on them & I never knew they were smokers.

Most people will not stop until they're ready (or get the $hit scared out of them by their doctor) & I'm no different. I've been a smoker since I was a young teenager & never had any desire to quit........until now. I'm just tired of it.

Smoking cessation makes you cranky. So in a short while if you should notice I'm suddenly calling everyone here at Searay an A$$hole then wish me luck! :grin: Scott

 

[Jack F]

Chuck if there is such a thing as a considerate smoker I'm it. Even back in the day when restaurants allowed smoking I would go outside to smoke. I don't smoke in my house or anyone else's. No butts on the ground and especially not in the lake.

About 20 yrs or so ago I actually quit for 6 weeks. It was the most miserable 6 weeks of my life. But in that short period of time my sense of taste & smell returned & I realized how obnoxious an odor cigarettes create. Business associates I'd known for years would stop by the office & I could smell the smoke on them & I never knew they were smokers.

Most people will not stop until they're ready (or get the $hit scared out of them by their doctor) & I'm no different. I've been a smoker since I was a young teenager & never had any desire to quit........until now. I'm just tired of it.

Smoking cessation makes you cranky. So in a short while if you should notice I'm suddenly calling everyone here at Searay an A$$hole then wish me luck! :grin: Scott

I'm in the same boat as you, I don’t smoke indoors anywhere and try and make sure I’m not around any non-smokers. I went to the DR for a physical last month and everything was good, I’m going to try quitting in the next month, maybe using the patch.

 

[chuck1]

Smoking cessation makes you cranky. ...:grin: Scott

Been there and done that, I had one of those doctor scares you are talking about.
It can be done, but it is a bitch...
Wishing you the best of luck and strength when you start. You can do it when you are ready.:thumbsup:

 

[Woody]

I know where you guys are at. I tried a few things(patches & pills) and nothing worked although I know folks that have had great success with them. I think I'm ready now and will be able to do it on my own. In recent years I've found out that I am not invivcible and in fact a mere mortal like everyone else. Had I known this I would have never taken up smoking.

 

[wvflyboy]

It is only a legitimate argument as long a tobacco has not been outlawed, and up until the poing where you start telling the owners of a building that they unconditionally have no right to choose wether or not to allow a legal activity to occur within the confines of their building. Bottom line is that even if the best restaurant in town allows smoking, non smokers should not be able to just say "We heard the food in there is great, but we won't go in there because they allow smoke. Make them not allow smoking so we can go eat there." and get their way.

The whole point of this thread wasn't about smoking. It was about taking away freedom from people just because you can.

Outdoor bans are just lawmakers getting overzealous. I can see providing non smoking areas in certain sections of baseball parks, amusement parks, etc., but the decision of how many, and where should be left solely up to the owner or operator of the establishment. Blanket outdoor bans are just BS.

Michael

Let's try to think about it in other terms.

If the building you own is your home - fair enough. But if the building you own is a public establishment - then you are subject to the public health code. Why? Because you're serving the public. It's not as simple as "it's my building and I'll do what I want in it." For example, is it lawful for you to store chicken and milk at room temp in your own home? Sure it is. But if your running a restaurant and holding yourself out to the general public - then the public's interest is protected by the health code. Your refrigeration units must properly refrigerate, you have to maintain reasonable levels of cleanliness, you can't have the crapper in the kitchen, etc., etc.

I think most of us are o.k with those things. However, when it comes to smoking I think we change the dialog to "its my right to do this because it's not an illegal activity."

The argument about smoking bans in public places, in my opinion, is not about your right to smoke or trying to protect your health so much as it is an attempt to protect the health of the general public... just like the regulations regarding food storage, etc.

Some might say (and do) "well why not post a sign that says this is a smoking establishment" and customers can choose? The problem with that, as I see it, is the people that work in that establishment. Eight hours a day in a smoked filled bar negatively effects the health of every worker there. And yes I know, a lot of the waitstaff probably smoke themselves... but it shouldn't be a requirement to have a job.

To those of you saying this is a product of the liberal Dems and the Obama adminstration.... give me a break. The fact is, most smoking bans have been passed by Public Health Departments not by legislatures and certainly not by Congress. Public Health Departments have been created by conservative and liberal legislatures over the years to promulgate rules governing public health (not health issues in your own home, your own car, etc) The are purposely set up to be non elective so they are insulated from the popular political sentiment of the day.

To those of you on my side of the issue that are calling smokers stupid or wishing them death or disease... do you really think you're scoring debating points with those "tactics?" Get real.

In my opinion individual freedom is not simply a license to do what I want. You may think it's your right to smoke pretty much where you please... I may think I have a right to drive 90 miles an hour on the freeway... but in both cases we put restrictions on those rights in order to try and protect the public at large. Hopefully those are reasonable restrictions.

Do these restrictions sometimes go too far? Sure. And sometimes they don't go far enough.

But that's just my opinion - which, thankfully, in this country I still have a right to express.

 

[Boatingfool]

All in all, although I don't like cigarettes, the larger question is one's rights. Where do we draw the line?

Was segregation fair? No. But when it came people's rights this last election the facts, the statistics, show us why it is so important not to strip people of their rights. Those who not too long ago were invovled in the civil righs movement overwelmingly voted for a new form of segregation in California - against gay rights. Does that make sense? No.

This is why we need to abide by the constitution and not limit people's rights. On a wim the populus can do something rash. They may make uneducated decisions. What would we all say if the populus, which the majority doesn't boat, decides boating polutes too much so why not tax us $5K a year? They don't boat it won't cost them anything? We'd be screwed.

If someone wants to smoke they should be allowed so long as it doesn't directly effect someone else IMO.

 

[Boatingfool]

Being gay increases the chance one has of getting AIDS. That costs the rests of us a lot of money, as well as exposing us all to more AIDS because the behavior increases, or at least facilitates, propagation of the disease. So by using your own example, we should tax the hell out of, if not outright illegalize, being light in the loafers because it is better for them, and safer for the rest of us. Sure, they'll get a little upset, but it is for their own good.

Can you substantiate this paragraph with facts? Not true at all.

 

[JediJD]

Well put, WV...but what if the "public health" information (from which your assumptions are based) is not quite as accurate as we have been lead to believe? I think earlier I posted a link to some of the SHS epidemiology...which I found pretty interesting but you would have to judge for yourself.

Secondarily...I think there is a big difference between e coli and secondhand smoke, both as to the immediacy of any risk, and its certainty.

Finally, I agree with your basic argument...that is that we as a society must judge the parameters under which we can operate as a safe and free people. Where we may disagree is that I believe that life is not safe, and cannot be made so. I believe that a slow erosion of individual liberties begins with well intentioned restrictions on barely dangerous evils. I believe that restrictions in a free society should be the last resort...after a careful analysis of all factors and that restrictions on individual decisions and choices should be themselves the most restricted decisions made.

I think any of us would be hard pressed to answer in the affirmative, any legitimate reason for preventing outdoor smoking at a public rest area. Similarly, given only the choices of government control, or private sector control, I place my ultimate faith in businesses to decide their own clientele and market.

 

[Boatingfool]

you forgot Caterpillar.....

and dont forget MAN Diesels...smokiest of them all!

 

[Four Suns]

I think smoking gay people that fart too much should be taxed more.

 

[Turtlesboat]

Let's try to think about it in other terms.

If the building you own is your home - fair enough. But if the building you own is a public establishment - then you are subject to the public health code. Why? Because you're serving the public. It's not as simple as "it's my building and I'll do what I want in it." For example, is it lawful for you to store chicken and milk at room temp in your own home? Sure it is. But if your running a restaurant and holding yourself out to the general public - then the public's interest is protected by the health code. Your refrigeration units must properly refrigerate, you have to maintain reasonable levels of cleanliness, you can't have the crapper in the kitchen, etc., etc.

I think most of us are o.k with those things. However, when it comes to smoking I think we change the dialog to "its my right to do this because it's not an illegal activity."

The argument about smoking bans in public places, in my opinion, is not about your right to smoke or trying to protect your health so much as it is an attempt to protect the health of the general public... just like the regulations regarding food storage, etc.

Some might say (and do) "well why not post a sign that says this is a smoking establishment" and customers can choose? The problem with that, as I see it, is the people that work in that establishment. Eight hours a day in a smoked filled bar negatively effects the health of every worker there. And yes I know, a lot of the waitstaff probably smoke themselves... but it shouldn't be a requirement to have a job.

To those of you saying this is a product of the liberal Dems and the Obama adminstration.... give me a break. The fact is, most smoking bans have been passed by Public Health Departments not by legislatures and certainly not by Congress. Public Health Departments have been created by conservative and liberal legislatures over the years to promulgate rules governing public health (not health issues in your own home, your own car, etc) The are purposely set up to be non elective so they are insulated from the popular political sentiment of the day.

To those of you on my side of the issue that are calling smokers stupid or wishing them death or disease... do you really think you're scoring debating points with those "tactics?" Get real.

In my opinion individual freedom is not simply a license to do what I want. You may think it's your right to smoke pretty much where you please... I may think I have a right to drive 90 miles an hour on the freeway... but in both cases we put restrictions on those rights in order to try and protect the public at large. Hopefully those are reasonable restrictions.

Do these restrictions sometimes go too far? Sure. And sometimes they don't go far enough.

But that's just my opinion - which, thankfully, in this country I still have a right to express.

There are some holes in your argument. First, why can't smoking or not minding be a requirement for a job in a smoking establishment? It's a reasonable requirement for the job at hand. Just like hooter chicks can't be fat and small breasted.

 

[avguy]

Now I'm sitting here smoking & thinking about Hooters girls..........

 

[chuck1]

.. Just like hooter chicks can't be fat and small breasted.

I always thought that the hiring manager for Hooters would be my kind of job. Just think about the interview, ok lets see your resume. :lol::smt043:lol:.