The real difference in Raymarine Radar systems

[jaywoodz]

I currently have a Raymarine Dome Radar. I am thinking about upgrading to a Raymarine Open Array Scanner OR selling the radar dome itself all together. I have a few questions:

1) If staying within the lower 48 inner coastal rivers, with very few trips to the bay.. is a radar even necessary?
2) Would it be worth it to upgrade?
3) What are the main advantages to having a radar in the first place?
4) Is the dome scanner a hot ticket item that I may be able to sell used quickly?

Thanks guys!

 

[ImpulseIII]

Just my opinion but a scanner on a 31 foot boat looks a bit pretentious. Radar is only necessary when you really need it.
It's better to have and not need than need and not have. (kind of like a gun).

 

[CAMELLA]

You need it at night and during poor visibility, if you already have radar why are you asking if you need radar? Wants your reasoning to upgrading to an open array?

 

[hack4alivin]

I think you have answered question 2 yourself. I you’re asking question 1 and wondering if Radar is necessary to you, why would you consider spending a lot of money to upgrade?

I have radar on mine and in reality the only time I really use it is when I am out at night. That is when is really helps me, and even then I have everything setup for close range. I don’t really care about four miles out in front of me, all I really need is what is in front of me that I could possible hit! An Open Array Scanner would give you more range, but also cost about twice as much as the dome, although it does look cool!

PS, Frank is right…. An Open Array on a 31 would not only look strange, it might even take off your TV antenna!

 

[jaywoodz]

You need it at night and during poor visibility, if you already have radar why are you asking if you need radar? Wants your reasoning to upgrading to an open array?

Well, I guess I should explain myself a little better since some of this seems a little strange. The owner prior to me used to deep sea dive off the coast, so I would see the reasoning for his Radar. I have the oppertunity to get a VERY cheap open arrary radar ~$500 and would most likely be able to sell mine for almost as much as that (Craigslist, eBay). Basically, I think I would break even.. so I figured this may raise the sell-ability in the future of the boat, and also more options with the open array. I guess I'm trying to figure out if 1) it's really necessary for what I'm doing (I'm thinking no), 2) if it will increase the sell-ability of the boat, and 3) is there really that much of a difference? Also.. I have a Raymarine E Series multifunctional display.

 

[jaywoodz]

I think you have answered question 2 yourself. I you’re asking question 1 and wondering if Radar is necessary to you, why would you consider spending a lot of money to upgrade?

I have radar on mine and in reality the only time I really use it is when I am out at night. That is when is really helps me, and even then I have everything setup for close range. I don’t really care about four miles out in front of me, all I really need is what is in front of me that I could possible hit! An Open Array Scanner would give you more range, but also cost about twice as much as the dome, although it does look cool!

PS, Frank is right…. An Open Array on a 31 would not only look strange, it might even take off your TV antenna!

haha, it does look cool. Honestly, I don't think even think mine is setup right! It scans fairly far out, and I'm very new to this whole scanner thing. I love the multifunctional display (even though it doesn't show some of the waterways near me). I guess since I would break even, I would take the chance and upgrade.

Btw - your boat is gorgeous! Love that color!

 

[Henry Boyd]

The main differences between open array and domes are image resolution and power.

Power really is kind of meaningless for Sundancers. Radar is line of sight. As a result, the distance it can 'see' is limited to the horizon. The distance to the horizon is a function of the height of the radar above the water. All of the Raymarine radars have enough power to go beyond the horizon based on the typical mounting height of the Sundancer arch. On the other hand, if we were talking about installing radar up 50' or so, say on a sail boat mast, then an open array might be a better choice. The only benefit to extra power is the ability to see objects that are on the other side of the horizon that are tall enough to poke up into your line of sight. These would be things like the accommodation block and bridge of a large container ship that could be seen while the ship itself was still on the other side of the horizon. While its good to know what's on the other side of the horizon, it seems to me there is no real value. After all, be it weather, or container ship, both are far enough away and slow enough that they can be avoided even if the 'earliest' warning is at the horizon.

Image resolution from an open array is better because of the geometry of the emitter. An open array is better a depicting irregularities in the coast line like small coves are at a farther distance.

The open array is probably physically a hardier machine than the domes, sort of a industrial vs. recreational thing.

1) I think radar is useful and necessary if there is ever a chance you will be out after dark, you may get caught in a thunder storm, or fog.

2) I don't know what you currently have for hardware, but unless you have the latest RM stuff, or the E series display (maybe W?) you may be out of luck as the current crop of radar is not backwardly compatible with the C and older displays. Upgrading may require a whole new electronics suite.

3) Navigation and collision avoidance

4) don't know it depends. There have been a couple of used RM dome radar systems for sale on THT for the past few weeks. I'm not sure if it is the season, or a sign of the overall demand.

My suggestion would be to add AIS if you are where there is a lot of commercial traffic. And if you don't have it, a DSC capable VHF. Standard Horizon has a VHF that incorporates and AIS receiver, and I believe Icom does as well. The SH can be connected to you RM display to show AIS traffic.

Henry

 

[Gofirstclass]

I don't think you'd get enough for your dome to even come close to an open array setup. I wouldn't sell it for the reasons mentioned. What I would suggest is that you use it enough to learn how to change the settings so it becomes useful TO YOU.

To answer your questions about whether or not you should do anything with your existing radar, my advice would be not to change it. If you put up an open array it would looks kind of stupid (imho) and if you removed the radar you'd be giving up a selling point for your boat when you want to go to a different boat.

 

[jaywoodz]

The main differences between open array and domes are image resolution and power.

Power really is kind of meaningless for Sundancers. Radar is line of sight. As a result, the distance it can 'see' is limited to the horizon. The distance to the horizon is a function of the height of the radar above the water. All of the Raymarine radars have enough power to go beyond the horizon based on the typical mounting height of the Sundancer arch. On the other hand, if we were talking about installing radar up 50' or so, say on a sail boat mast, then an open array might be a better choice. The only benefit to extra power is the ability to see objects that are on the other side of the horizon that are tall enough to poke up into your line of sight. These would be things like the accommodation block and bridge of a large container ship that could be seen while the ship itself was still on the other side of the horizon. While its good to know what's on the other side of the horizon, it seems to me there is no real value. After all, be it weather, or container ship, both are far enough away and slow enough that they can be avoided even if the 'earliest' warning is at the horizon.

Image resolution from an open array is better because of the geometry of the emitter. An open array is better a depicting irregularities in the coast line like small coves are at a farther distance.

The open array is probably physically a hardier machine than the domes, sort of a industrial vs. recreational thing.

1) I think radar is useful and necessary if there is ever a chance you will be out after dark, you may get caught in a thunder storm, or fog.

2) I don't know what you currently have for hardware, but unless you have the latest RM stuff, or the E series display (maybe W?) you may be out of luck as the current crop of radar is not backwardly compatible with the C and older displays. Upgrading may require a whole new electronics suite.

3) Navigation and collision avoidance

4) don't know it depends. There have been a couple of used RM dome radar systems for sale on THT for the past few weeks. I'm not sure if it is the season, or a sign of the overall demand.

My suggestion would be to add AIS if you are where there is a lot of commercial traffic. And if you don't have it, a DSC capable VHF. Standard Horizon has a VHF that incorporates and AIS receiver, and I believe Icom does as well. The SH can be connected to you RM display to show AIS traffic.

Henry

Thank you for the very detailed response. I definitely understand better of how each system works. I have the E-series display.. I believe it was new back in 08-09, the latest firmware installed and it does support seatalk.. which is a whole new beast that I need to tackle. I think the radar open array that I'm looking at, does in fact support my display.. so I should be fine there. Would you mind going into a little more detail about the AIS part of your post? Commercial traffic majorily I have around my area, just cruising for the day is very minimal. Although.. I'm planning take multiple trips during the summer, where there will be.

 

[Vince_nj1]

I suspect that the open array will require the heavy radar cable (2 red power and 2 black ground wires) If your boat has the light cable, you will need to run a new cable up to the top of the radar arch. That task might not be as easy as you think. I had problem with my radar a few years ago and suspected the cable was bad. I ran a new light cable and it took me 8 hours. I don't think I would have been successful running a heavy cable. On my boat Sea Ray coiled any extra wire lengths from the radar, gps, tv antenna and mast lights and buried them in the dead space at the base of my radar arch. It was very difficult snaking a new wire through that mess.

Personally, I would pass on the open array. I am sure your boat will bring some other project that you are not expecting to spend your free time working on.

 

[Henry Boyd]

AIS a system based on VHF where a signal is constantly being transmitted that identifies the vessel (just like an aircraft transponder). Currently AIS is required on all large commercial vessels (ships), and any commercial vessels that carry passengers for hire. However anybody can install AIS on their vessel regardless of size and use.

The hardware comes in two flavors, a receiver only that picks up the signals from transmitting vessels. This is the format that the SH VHF I mentioned in my earlier post uses. Besides locating AIS transmitting vessels, using it with the DSC VHF allows you to connect directly to the VHF of the transmitting vessel as part of the information transmitted is MMSI. Think of having the contact info and phone numbers of passing cell phones pop up on your cell as you walk down the street. This makes it easy to get on the radio and hail the vessel and get their intentions. Receiver only systems generally can piggyback on your existing VHF antenna and connect to your MFD via NMEA0183. Needless to say a DSC capable VHF is required.

The second option is to have a transciever that transmits your info. This type of set up requires its own antenna, and also connects to your VHF and display via NMEA0183. Although AIS is VHF based and as such your viewing range is limited to about a 15 mile radius, the Coast Guard's tall powerful VHF system can see many times that making AIS very helpful in an emergency situation where they need to find you.

The other benefit of AIS is that while it has roughly the same range as your radar it is not limited to line of sight. That means you can see an AIS transmitting vessel even if it is on the other side of an island. When I took my last electronics refresher course, the instructor used the example of a boat traveling down the East River being able to see AIS equipped traffic on the other side of Manhattan traveling down the Hudson.

And if you are a fanatical fisherman, or traveling in waters where pirates are active, there are AIS transciever systems that allow for you to turn off the transmit function.

I went with the receiver system last year and after a season of using it I wish I had gone directly to the transciever.

Henry

 

[JimFromMD]

AIS a system based on VHF where a signal is constantly being transmitted that identifies the vessel (just like an aircraft transponder). Currently AIS is required on all large commercial vessels (ships), and any commercial vessels that carry passengers for hire. However anybody can install AIS on their vessel regardless of size and use.

The hardware comes in two flavors, a receiver only that picks up the signals from transmitting vessels. This is the format that the SH VHF I mentioned in my earlier post uses. Besides locating AIS transmitting vessels, using it with the DSC VHF allows you to connect directly to the VHF of the transmitting vessel as part of the information transmitted is MMSI. Think of having the contact info and phone numbers of passing cell phones pop up on your cell as you walk down the street. This makes it easy to get on the radio and hail the vessel and get their intentions. Receiver only systems generally can piggyback on your existing VHF antenna and connect to your MFD via NMEA0183. Needless to say a DSC capable VHF is required.

The second option is to have a transciever that transmits your info. This type of set up requires its own antenna, and also connects to your VHF and display via NMEA0183. Although AIS is VHF based and as such your viewing range is limited to about a 15 mile radius, the Coast Guard's tall powerful VHF system can see many times that making AIS very helpful in an emergency situation where they need to find you.

The other benefit of AIS is that while it has roughly the same range as your radar it is not limited to line of sight. That means you can see an AIS transmitting vessel even if it is on the other side of an island. When I took my last electronics refresher course, the instructor used the example of a boat traveling down the East River being able to see AIS equipped traffic on the other side of Manhattan traveling down the Hudson.

And if you are a fanatical fisherman, or traveling in waters where pirates are active, there are AIS transciever systems that allow for you to turn off the transmit function.

I went with the receiver system last year and after a season of using it I wish I had gone directly to the transciever.

Henry

There are also several new VHF rigs that incorporate AIS right into the standard dashmounted VHF and use the same antenna without needing a second I believe.

 

[dwna1a]

Jay, while everybody here has been very helpful with this, it still is based on what you have and what you may need. I bought my boat back in July and I'm still kicking the same question around. Do I update at the cost of $2g++ or do I just keep what I have? Call Bill at Norton Yacht Sales in Deltaville, they have been more than helpful and they haven't pushed any one unit in my face. I have been looking at the e and c units and if you fish you may want to look at the e7D from WM, it comes with the array as a package deal. I have radar now but it's older and I want everything in one place. My plotter is shot and must go this year, so I'm purchasing a multifunction, then when my older array bites the dust all I need is to replace it. This will connect my VHF and my plotter for distress situations.

 

[GrandMaster]

Agree, with most everything posted above by others

1. For collision avoidance, radar is not really needed unless you are running at night or low visibility.
2. Radar provides minimal navigational assistance if you have a good, updated GPS charplotter
3. Only advantage to an open array radar on a 30'-40' Sundancer is that it looks way cooler than a dome
4. Working radar of some sort does improve resale a little
5. AIS is great up & coming technology for locating other vessels that may soon "replace" radar for that purpose but it will not help avoid collisions with something other than a vessel.
6. Radar has other uses including weather/storm tracking and locating birds for fishing

 

[dpmulvey]

You need to sell it and go to the open array. That said, I want first dibs on your current stuff! :grin:

In all seriousness, a friend came from Chicago through the great lakes and part of the loop to Richmond, VA in his 48 Pace with a system similar to yours. He also took off from his former marina in Richmond, VA to his current marina in Williamsburg, VA and hit pea soup fog past the point of no return on the James River. The James is heavily traveled commercially. Between the radar and plotter he made it without a tick. Personally, I think you'll be fine.

But if you do decide to sell.......

 

[trit21]

2. Radar provides minimal navigational assistance if you have a good, updated GPS charplotter

I severely disagree with this statement. If you feel radar does not provide navigational assistance, you don't know how to use radar.

Radar gives you returns on item all around you. While a chartplotter is great, it does not tell you where you actually are but gives you an approximate location on a chart that sometimes could be months or years old. There are errors on charts in both electronic version and printed versions and if you rely on that information you are sure to hit something sooner or later. Chartplotters are there for reference just like standard printed charts while radar gives you real time data. If you know how to use and setup radar it gives you an enormous amount of information in the rain, fog, distance, verifies location based on chartplotter by the returns you see against the position on your chartplotter.

 

[GrandMaster]

I severely disagree with this statement. If you feel radar does not provide navigational assistance, you don't know how to use radar.

Radar gives you returns on item all around you. While a chartplotter is great, it does not tell you where you actually are but gives you an approximate location on a chart that sometimes could be months or years old. There are errors on charts in both electronic version and printed versions and if you rely on that information you are sure to hit something sooner or later. Chartplotters are there for reference just like standard printed charts while radar gives you real time data. If you know how to use and setup radar it gives you an enormous amount of information in the rain, fog, distance, verifies location based on chartplotter by the returns you see against the position on your chartplotter.

I agree with your statement 100% in that you describe radar as an aid in collision avoidance which my earlier post said was a benefit, but not so much to navigation. i.e. current lat./long., distance to/from waypoint, course, speed, drift, location, etc.

 

[trit21]

I agree with your statement 100% in that you describe radar as an aid in collision avoidance which my earlier post said was a benefit, but not so much to navigation. i.e. current lat./long., distance to/from waypoint, course, speed, drift, location, etc.

Actually it can give you, distance to from waypoint if you have waypoints enabled and you use the range rings/VRM/EBL function. Probably faster than scrolling up with the pointer on the chartplotter. Lat and long, no can't do that. Speed and drift it can do in a pinch but don't really need my speed when I boat, long as I am going forward speed really doesn't matter all that much really does it? And collision avoidance is part of navigation so it does help in navigation by avoiding collisions.

 

[JimFromMD]

One last thought. Measure everything out on your arch before you jump. Weight limits, spacing requirements, levels above/around tv antenna, XM radio etc. If there's not enough space, or you need elevated mounts to make stuff fit... you may go from a $500 "deal" to a $1000+ upgrade adn retrofit project. And after all that, its likely a 4' array and may make you end up looking like a hellicopter. Dont get me wrong, I LOVE the visual look of a swirling open array... always have, but I ended up going with the closed array because it provided more than enough coverage, and was really all I could fit. If your elevation can't take advantage of the extra coverage provided by the open array, go with the enclosed lower power unit and save the extra cooking of your brain and guts (some don't believe, some do... go lower power and hedge your bets).

Just my .02.

 

[CSR_Admin]

A GPS/Chartplotter tells you what should be there. A radar tells if the object is/isn't actually there. This is in regards to things on the surface.