The Official 450 Express Bridge Owners Club

[Shoyrtt]

FYI, I made a few minor repairs in case you run into the same issues:

• Replaced the trim tab rocker switches with a Bennett Marine ES2000 Euro-Style Rocker Switch (Hydraulic). The springs wear out in the switches, making the trim tabs inoperable. You'll notice a decrease in resistance when engaging the switch before they give out entirely.

Keith,
Let me know where you picked up your new switches. I think mine gave out this past weekend. Time for another project.

 

[Shoyrtt]

I’m curious if you have an update. I engaged with an installer to put a 3,000 watt inverter on my 2001 EB. He recommended I add three additional lead batteries to support the inverter separate from the house battery, which I liked. The challenge is that there is not much room in the engine compartment for another 3 batteries. I had recommended considering the space below the floor in the galley, however he nixed that idea due to lead batteries having a potential smell which would be better off in the engine room.

I was watching this guys blog who installed those same battle born batteries. He has the batteries stored beneath his couches, which I would surmise means there is not an issue with odor.

I reached out to my installer about these batteries and he said “At this time I do not do lithium batteries. There are various reasons. We could talk about it sometime.”

This conversation just happened, so will discuss lithium biases.

I have the same legacy house battery setup you show in your picture. Appreciate your update.

Hey Chuck,
So the short answer to your question is I have been very happy with our new battery/inverter/charger system on the boat. I have a 3000 watt inverter/charger from Victron that works very well. I don't believe you have to run lithium batteries to use it, but if you are adding more lead or agm batteries and are short on space, the six Battle Born battery option should meet your needs.

Now the slightly longer version to your question. For my use, I first looked at what system or systems on the 110 or 220 side of the panel I wanted to run with the inverter. My buddy who is a Chief Engineer on a tug boat in Hawaii helped design and install my system and recommended Battle Born, suggested that any of the 220 big draw items be left to the generator. I actually only wanted three areas to be powered by the inverter. On my flybridge we installed a new ice maker and the wife wanted it making ice full time. The outlet for it under the helm is on the 110 side of the panel marked as "bridge/cockpit". Instead of using the Victron inverter, I have a separate inverter that I run from the 12 volt bar on the helm to only power the ice maker. The Victron inverter powers the "Port Systems" and "Galley Systems" items on the 110 side. The way this is set up, I have a separate breaker next to the main breakers for shore and generator use that is labeled "Hotel". When we are on the hook and I want to run the port and galley systems, I have to turn on the hotel breaker and then go into the engine room to turn on the inverter switch on the Victron. In the future, I might also add the starboard systems, but for now I'm happy with it as is.

The down side to the lithium batteries is the costs. With our boating and spending two or three nights on the hook, I was running the generator a lot to keep my lead batteries charged. And the rules at Catalina Island prohibit generator use from 10pm to 7am. So that meant no ice maker and no TV or galley use late at night. I looked at adding more lead batteries, but like you, I didn't know where they would fit other than behind the port side engine. I have friends who arrive at Catalina and as soon as they are on the hook, the generator runs non-stop until 10pm. We like not having to run it much at all, usually only to heat up the hot water for a shower or when its chilly, the heater inside.

I would suggest to look at what systems you need the inverter to power and then weigh the costs. The "happy wife, happy life" motto weighed heavily on my decision.
Jim

 

[keithmo]

Interested on your engine sync repair. The sync on our boat did exactly what you described on our sea trial. Previous owner just said it has never worked.

Would love to fix this on ours!

Sorry for the delay! I actually made 2 repairs, one on each engine, both flexshaft problems. The starboard flexshaft became "rounded" on one end, so it just slipped and rotated. The port engine adapter plate became a little loose and moved enough to cause the flexshaft to break -- causing an immediate hard turn to starboard. It's really easy to pull off the drive joint, use the alignment tool to get things lined up while tightening the adapter plate, then inserting the new flexshaft. Be sure to lubricate both ends, and shoot some grease into the drive joint as well. Here are before pics of both engines. I also attached the section of the manual for this repair.

The alignment tool is about $30 and I have a spare if you would like me to send it to you. Let me know if you would like to discuss more. I can really tell the difference when the autosync is working properly.

 

[keithmo]

Keith,
Let me know where you picked up your new switches. I think mine gave out this past weekend. Time for another project.

Hey Jim,

I found them at walmart.com. Here's the link: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bennett-...m-msg-id=8bd16f7d-221e-4901-8106-e989849c0f82

By the way, I contacted Bennet Marine (owned by Yamaha, by the way), and talked to their tech support to be sure i was getting the right thing. It's quite a bit different than the original, but the wiring is the same. I was able to use the existing hole without modifications, but had to drill new screw holes. Not a big deal, and everything is working well. Good luck, and let me know if I can assist.

 

[Forrestkk]

Sorry for the delay! I actually made 2 repairs, one on each engine, both flexshaft problems. The starboard flexshaft became "rounded" on one end, so it just slipped and rotated. The port engine adapter plate became a little loose and moved enough to cause the flexshaft to break -- causing an immediate hard turn to starboard. It's really easy to pull off the drive joint, use the alignment tool to get things lined up while tightening the adapter plate, then inserting the new flexshaft. Be sure to lubricate both ends, and shoot some grease into the drive joint as well. Here are before pics of both engines. I also attached the section of the manual for this repair.

The alignment tool is about $30 and I have a spare if you would like me to send it to you. Let me know if you would like to discuss more. I can really tell the difference when the autosync is working properly.

No worries on delay, and thx for the pics and document. I'll have to do some more troubleshooting. I'm sure I'll be back for some more advice soon once I figure out the issue.

Thx again!

 

[Forrestkk]

450 EB Rough sea handling

Hi All,
Prepping for a 3 day sail home with one long leg (200 miles) from Tarpon Spring, FL to Apalachicola, FL. That is a hop across the Gulf. I have a friend coming with me who has done that trip several times, but in a 10,000 lb sail boat (displacement hull).

He is getting all revved up about being able to hold 20 kts if the wave frequency is 5 seconds or less. If the weather is unsafe, of course we will wait, but if it is just some swells I'm inclined to press forward with a 30,000 lb boat and power.

During our sea trial, I purposely drove through wakes of other bigger boats and the 450 just cut through them, of course these were only single waves.

Question to the group, have you done much rough water stuff, and if so, how did your boat handle.

 

[Shoyrtt]

450 EB Rough sea handling

Hi All,
Prepping for a 3 day sail home with one long leg (200 miles) from Tarpon Spring, FL to Apalachicola, FL. That is a hop across the Gulf. I have a friend coming with me who has done that trip several times, but in a 10,000 lb sail boat (displacement hull).

He is getting all revved up about being able to hold 20 kts if the wave frequency is 5 seconds or less. If the weather is unsafe, of course we will wait, but if it is just some swells I'm inclined to press forward with a 30,000 lb boat and power.

During our sea trial, I purposely drove through wakes of other bigger boats and the 450 just cut through them, of course these were only single waves.

Question to the group, have you done much rough water stuff, and if so, how did your boat handle.

Kevin,
The answer to your question depends on a number of factors. A two foot swell at five seconds is dramatically different than a four foot swell at the same interval. I tend to follow the rule that if the swell height is half or more than half the interval, don’t go out. Also consider the direction of the swell. When we relocated our boat from Northern California to Southern California (a little over 500 miles) the swell for the most part was always at our back. 20+ knots was easy as the swell pushed us down the coast.
About a month ago we went out in less than ideal conditions. We were heading home at dusk, directly into a west swell and 15-20 knot winds. Three to four foot swells at five seconds. As soon as we got outside the breakwater, my wife said “go back.” I figured I could just power through. I was wrong. Sure the boat can cut through the swell, but there was no way I was doing anything close to 20 knots. I found it was tolerable at maybe 10 to 11 knots at best. Normally that 20 mile trip that would have taken an hour, ended up close to three hours. I tend to agree with your friend on this one.
Jim

 

[ENstig8or]

450 EB Rough sea handling

Hi All,
Prepping for a 3 day sail home with one long leg (200 miles) from Tarpon Spring, FL to Apalachicola, FL. That is a hop across the Gulf. I have a friend coming with me who has done that trip several times, but in a 10,000 lb sail boat (displacement hull).

He is getting all revved up about being able to hold 20 kts if the wave frequency is 5 seconds or less. If the weather is unsafe, of course we will wait, but if it is just some swells I'm inclined to press forward with a 30,000 lb boat and power.

During our sea trial, I purposely drove through wakes of other bigger boats and the 450 just cut through them, of course these were only single waves.

Question to the group, have you done much rough water stuff, and if so, how did your boat handle.

My biggest concern would be your fuel mileage. 200 miles at 20 knots would have you arriving on fumes. I would definitely check and double check your fuel burn. I know on my boat, to run 20 knots I would be burning over 40 gallons per hour. If the seas were choppy, that would be worse.

 

[Forrestkk]

Kevin,
The answer to your question depends on a number of factors. A two foot swell at five seconds is dramatically different than a four foot swell at the same interval. I tend to follow the rule that if the swell height is half or more than half the interval, don’t go out. Also consider the direction of the swell. When we relocated our boat from Northern California to Southern California (a little over 500 miles) the swell for the most part was always at our back. 20+ knots was easy as the swell pushed us down the coast.
About a month ago we went out in less than ideal conditions. We were heading home at dusk, directly into a west swell and 15-20 knot winds. Three to four foot swells at five seconds. As soon as we got outside the breakwater, my wife said “go back.” I figured I could just power through. I was wrong. Sure the boat can cut through the swell, but there was no way I was doing anything close to 20 knots. I found it was tolerable at maybe 10 to 11 knots at best. Normally that 20 mile trip that would have taken an hour, ended up close to three hours. I tend to agree with your friend on this one.
Jim

@Shoyrtt
Great info, thx! Will definitely use the calc and keep a eagle eye on predict winds app.

@ENstig8or
A good point on burn. I dont have the ability to check fuel flow, yet. I will definitely be making equal time point calculatuons based in groundspeed.

My plan is to top up the tanks and check them against guages on delivery, motor to first stop and top up again to see how accurate the guages are based on if the first half goes faster than the second half of the tank. Should also be able to get a read on burn at a the intended RPM, and also understand that with wind/waves the same RPM will not yield the same ground speed. With that info, should be able to manage the fuel.

Thoughts?

 

[Shoyrtt]

@Shoyrtt
Great info, thx! Will definitely use the calc and keep a eagle eye on predict winds app.

@ENstig8or
A good point on burn. I dont have the ability to check fuel flow, yet. I will definitely be making equal time point calculatuons based in groundspeed.

My plan is to top up the tanks and check them against guages on delivery, motor to first stop and top up again to see how accurate the guages are based on if the first half goes faster than the second half of the tank. Should also be able to get a read on burn at a the intended RPM, and also understand that with wind/waves the same RPM will not yield the same ground speed. With that info, should be able to manage the fuel.

Thoughts?

That is what we did on our relocation trip. Our longest stretch was from Morro Bay to Long Beach, around 250 miles. The first 2/3rds from Morro Bay to Santa Barbara, again we had the swell to our back and we were hauling ass. The final stretch from Santa Barbara to Long Beach we had a little head wind but it wasn’t bad. The boat holds 400 gallons. I believe we put in 360-370 gallons, so we were almost on fumes.
Which engine package do you have? Cummins or Cats?

 

[Forrestkk]

That is what we did on our relocation trip. Our longest stretch was from Morro Bay to Long Beach, around 250 miles. The first 2/3rds from Morro Bay to Santa Barbara, again we had the swell to our back and we were hauling ass. The final stretch from Santa Barbara to Long Beach we had a little head wind but it wasn’t bad. The boat holds 400 gallons. I believe we put in 360-370 gallons, so we were almost on fumes.
Which engine package do you have? Cummins or Cats?

We can make a slightly shorter leg to Carabelle, which is right at 180 miles. Agree, tail winds/swells make a huge difference.

We have Cummins 6CTA, 430HP. Looking at fuel curve charts, we should burn 12 gallons per hour at 2100 RPM, per engine for 24 gph total. Am I way off? Won't let me attach the charts, but they are at this link https://www.sbmar.com/cummins-marine-diesel-performance-curves/

Kevin

 

[Shoyrtt]

We can make a slightly shorter leg to Carabelle, which is right at 180 miles. Agree, tail winds/swells make a huge difference.

We have Cummins 6CTA, 430HP. Looking at fuel curve charts, we should burn 12 gallons per hour at 2100 RPM, per engine for 24 gph total. Am I way off? Won't let me attach the charts, but they are at this link https://www.sbmar.com/cummins-marine-diesel-performance-curves/

Kevin

I was hoping one of the Cummins owners would reply before me but your numbers are really close to what I burn with the 3126 420 hp Cats. I run at 2300 rpm which is right when I can hear the turbos spool up. At that speed I burn 22 gph.

 

[ENstig8or]

I have the Cummins 480CE engines. Same basic engine but a slight bump in HP and the first attempt by Cummins to make the control electronic. My engines are not as fuel efficient as the Cats. To run a steady 20 knots as you indicated is your plan, I would be running probably 2250-2300 rpm and burning at least 35 gallons per hour. Now with swells or wind in your face, fuel burn would be significantly more. Also, the condition of your bottom will affect speed and fuel burn. Is the bottom spotless and paint fairly new. I was surprised at just how much less fuel I burn on a freshly painted bottom.

 

[Forrestkk]

I have the Cummins 480CE engines. Same basic engine but a slight bump in HP and the first attempt by Cummins to make the control electronic. My engines are not as fuel efficient as the Cats. To run a steady 20 knots as you indicated is your plan, I would be running probably 2250-2300 rpm and burning at least 35 gallons per hour. Now with swells or wind in your face, fuel burn would be significantly more. Also, the condition of your bottom will affect speed and fuel burn. Is the bottom spotless and paint fairly new. I was surprised at just how much less fuel I burn on a freshly painted bottom.

Thx for the info!

The bottom is clean, but it is due a bottom job at the end of summer. My surveyor reccomended a total strip. I tend to agree as I assume there are at least 10 coats on the boat.

 

[techmitch]

Thx for the info!

The bottom is clean, but it is due a bottom job at the end of summer. My surveyor reccomended a total strip. I tend to agree as I assume there are at least 10 coats on the boat.

10 coats on a 450EB,... imagine the weight of all of those 1 gallon cans!

 

[Forrestkk]

Hi All,

Here is the hull number on our boat.

Kevin

 

[Shoyrtt]

Hi All,

Here is the hull number on our boat.

View attachment 104994

Kevin

Thanks again to Frank Webster, here is the decoding of your HIN:
SER = Vessel is a Sea Ray
P = boat built in Palm Coast FL plant
4302 = this is the serial number of your boat. According to Frank the next number in sequence could be a bow rider or a 680sss
L = boat was built in December
8 = boat was built in 1998
99 = manufactured as a 1999 model boat
Because we know that 1998/99 was the first year the 450 EB was in production, the lower "internal number" to Sea Ray is the hull production number for that first year. "450EB-530" was the 30th, 450 EB made out of approximately 230 during the run. Very cool!

 

[Forrestkk]

Thanks again to Frank Webster, here is the decoding of your HIN:
SER = Vessel is a Sea Ray
P = boat built in Palm Coast FL plant
4302 = this is the serial number of your boat. According to Frank the next number in sequence could be a bow rider or a 680sss
L = boat was built in December
8 = boat was built in 1998
99 = manufactured as a 1999 model boat
Because we know that 1998/99 was the first year the 450 EB was in production, the lower "internal number" to Sea Ray is the hull production number for that first year. "450EB-530" was the 30th, 450 EB made out of approximately 230 during the run. Very cool!

Great info, Thx!

As I don't know what I don't know, assuming the month built is laydown, not completion?

 

[Forrestkk]

HELM CONFIGURATIONS

As I look forward to upgrades, I thought it would be interesting to see everyone's helm configuration. Here is our helm.

I am supposed to be getting a second Garmin 5212 with the boat that is uninstalled, so I am trying to figure out how to install it below the glare shield (hoping to relocate the VHF and extend that Starboard plastic enough to fit in the second 5212). Also, looking to remove inoperative equipment like whatever the Raytheon display is between the tachs, the Garmin Fishfinder, and what looks like the old VHF speaker. Have no idea how to delete or repair the vessel monitor panel. Have seen the thread on Maretron upgrade, but that is more time than I am willing to put in for a monitor. Currently, there are just horns for engine sweet water temps. I am going to add exhaust temp sensors for raw water flow warning, and tempted to install low oil pressure and bilge level warning horns.

Would love to see all of your helm configs.

 

[LMBoat]

Good idea. I'm in the middle of adding a new Garmin 1243 XSV. When done, I'll post a pic of my helm.