The last Richmond, VA Confederate Monument comes down

[The Bill Collector]

Hey guys, this is just an alternative thought but please just give it a moment to ponder and if you can't I totally understand... So, I'm not looking for any kind of confrontation here, this is just my perspective as a old white guy now married to a black woman who's great great grandfather was a former slave in the south... As black person can you take a moment and think about these monuments of honor to their racist past and how they might make you feel.... I'm not looking for a fight or to get beat up over this post, I'm asking for a moment of reflection. Thank you in advance for honoring my request.

 

[Creekwood]

Hey guys, this is just an alternative thought but please just give it a moment to ponder and if you can't I totally understand... So, I'm not looking for any kind of confrontation here, this is just my perspective as a old white guy now married to a black woman who's great great grandfather was a former slave in the south... As black person can you take a moment and think about these monuments of honor to their racist past and how they might make you feel.... I'm not looking for a fight or to get beat up over this post, I'm asking for a moment of reflection. Thank you in advance for honoring my request.

A Canadian here so different perspective but I agree. My understanding is that many of the confederate generals fought to preserve slavery. Maybe over simplifying but the fundamental issue driving the civil war seems to be preservation of slavery. So celebration of the military leaders of that fight is like leaving a statue of Hitler up as a monument to the aryian culture he was trying to preserve. What am I missing? Please explain. Maybe I am missing something.

 

[Morgan Jane]

A Canadian here so different perspective but I agree. My understanding is that many of the confederate generals fought to preserve slavery. Maybe over simplifying but the fundamental issue driving the civil war seems to be preservation of slavery. So celebration of the military leaders of that fight is like leaving a statue of Hitler up as a monument to the aryian culture he was trying to preserve. What am I missing? Please explain. Maybe I am missing something.

I don't think you are missing something. This is the only post I will make on this subject. When I look at a statue of a civil war general (on either side) the last thing I think of is what they were fighting for, what does come to mind is how brave these men were to put their life on the line for a cause (whether I agree with the cause or not). By taking their statues down, we are basically saying they fought in vain. They put their lives on the line for nothing because 150 years later we disagree as to why they did what they did. It's the same thing when our Vets came back from Viet Nam. Because certain groups had disdain for the war, we spit on our boys who were drafted and had the balls to not avoid the draft. I look up greatly to every single soldier who ever fought in a war for whatever reason. They did their duty to the best of their knowledge at the time. It's like saying Stonewall Jackson was a bad person because he was fighting for the wrong reason. So the relatives of Stonewall Jackson should feel bad? I don't think so. Not only was the Whitehouse built by slaves, many of the first Presidents up to and including Tyler brought their slaves with them to serve in the White House. Should we bulldoze the Whitehouse? I totally believe Slavery was 100% wrong and do not defend it in anyway. We learned from our mistakes on the backs of others. A very horrible period of time for our Country. But we corrected it and have moved forward. It just is what it is. The more we erase History, the more likely we are to repeat. Am I wrong for liking all the statues that used to be along Monument Drive in Richmond. Can't I still like them even if they are there for the wrong reason? But I would say, I totally understand why the people who wanted them down, wanted them down and I believe that for their reasons, it is more important to take them down versus the reasons I would still like to see them standing. I think it's easier for me to deal with them not being there than it would be for a person to deal with them there that didn't want them there. I get it.

 

[mrsrobinson]

Nextdoor, Ring neighborhood, ect.... Ugh! Between, home business and investment properties, all system's/app's notifications can be modified. Kinda like on CSR, if you don't want to read it, don't click on it but with more adjustment's.

Yup, I Mute them so I never have to hear their, cough cough - opinion again.

 

[mrsrobinson]

I don't think you are missing something. This is the only post I will make on this subject. When I look at a statue of a civil war general (on either side) the last thing I think of is what they were fighting for, what does come to mind is how brave these men were to put their life on the line for a cause (whether I agree with the cause or not). By taking their statues down, we are basically saying they fought in vain. They put their lives on the line for nothing because 150 years later we disagree as to why they did what they did. It's the same thing when our Vets came back from Viet Nam. Because certain groups had disdain for the war, we spit on our boys who were drafted and had the balls to not avoid the draft. I look up greatly to every single soldier who ever fought in a war for whatever reason. They did their duty to the best of their knowledge at the time. It's like saying Stonewall Jackson was a bad person because he was fighting for the wrong reason. So the relatives of Stonewall Jackson should feel bad? I don't think so. Not only was the Whitehouse built by slaves, many of the first Presidents up to and including Tyler brought their slaves with them to serve in the White House. Should we bulldoze the Whitehouse? I totally believe Slavery was 100% wrong and do not defend it in anyway. We learned from our mistakes on the backs of others. A very horrible period of time for our Country. But we corrected it and have moved forward. It just is what it is. The more we erase History, the more likely we are to repeat. Am I wrong for liking all the statues that used to be along Monument Drive in Richmond. Can't I still like them even if they are there for the wrong reason? But I would say, I totally understand why the people who wanted them down, wanted them down and I believe that for their reasons, it is more important to take them down versus the reasons I would still like to see them standing. I think it's easier for me to deal with them not being there than it would be for a person to deal with them there that didn't want them there. I get it.

Hear Hear - well said

It's well known some do not believe in the cause they are fighting for as well, but their country/gov't forces them to fight. Perfect current example is Russians who are trying to avoid fighting against Ukraine. It's also worth spending time researching context, perspective, the time period, etc. to better understand how the "white" man truly viewed slavery then, versus now.

 

[Woody]

A Canadian here so different perspective but I agree. My understanding is that many of the confederate generals fought to preserve slavery. Maybe over simplifying but the fundamental issue driving the civil war seems to be preservation of slavery. So celebration of the military leaders of that fight is like leaving a statue of Hitler up as a monument to the aryian culture he was trying to preserve. What am I missing? Please explain. Maybe I am missing something.

As long as you're using Hitler....did you know that the Nazi German extermination camp Auschwitz-Birkenau still exists and is a Unesco World Heritage site? Certainly it's not to celebrate the horrors that took place there, it's to help remember one of mankinds blemishes, a caution to next generations.

 

[Steve S]

As long as your using Hitler....did you know that the Nazi German extermination camp Auschwitz-Birkenau still exists and is a Unesco World Heritage site? Certainly it's not to celebrate the horrors that took place there, it's to help remember one of mankinds blemishes, a caution to next generations.

Woody, Many of the concentration camps still exist today. I personally have been to Dachau, Buchenwald and Mathhausen. I believe that as part of their education, all German school children are required to visit a camp and learn about the atrocities that were committed.
I took my then 19 year old daughter to Dachau as part of a trip to Germany and Switzerland. On the way to the airport I asked her what her favorite part of the trip was. She paused for a moment and then said "I am glad that you took me to Dachau. I learned about this in high school BUT I never really understood it until I stood in the gas chamber and saw the ovens..."

 

[kvduff]

I' ve always thought of the statues in Richmond as second place trophies!

 

[highslice]

As the great grandson of a German spy who fled Germany to the United States, I feel proud that the allies crushed Germany and Hitler. I am also grateful that I was born in America and not Germany. I'm not sure why the great great granddaughter of a slave wouldn't see those confederate statues as a monument to what the country did to ensure her ancestors' freedom and be grateful to have been born in this country. Just my perspective.

 

[Woody]

As the great grandson of a German spy who fled Germany to the United States, I feel proud that the allies crushed Germany and Hitler. I am also grateful that I was born in America and not Germany. I'm not sure why the great great granddaughter of a slave wouldn't see those confederate statues as a monument to what the country did to ensure her ancestors' freedom and be grateful to have been born in this country. Just my perspective.

Hey, I get it now, you're saying try looking at things a different way, a change in perspective....you are on to something that could eliminate much anxiety/trauma.

 

[Steve S]

 

[OllieC]

View attachment 137741

The Confederacy may be gone, but the Democrat party is still here. Just my perspective.

 

[Pirate Lady]

Hey guys, this is just an alternative thought but please just give it a moment to ponder and if you can't I totally understand... So, I'm not looking for any kind of confrontation here, this is just my perspective as a old white guy now married to a black woman who's great great grandfather was a former slave in the south... As black person can you take a moment and think about these monuments of honor to their racist past and how they might make you feel.... I'm not looking for a fight or to get beat up over this post, I'm asking for a moment of reflection. Thank you in advance for honoring my request.

Wow, that’s deep. Really deep, might have a thought in a year.

 

[Pirate Lady]

Thing is , here we go… back then there was a very weak if non existent Federal govt. it really was the United STATES of America. A concept most people today can’t comprehend. Reason a LOT of West Point grads went back to fight for their STATE. There was no CARB enforcing their will on the other X STATES. The reason Bonnie and Clyde evaded capture for so long by crossing STATE borders. Feds as we know today didn’t really exist until sometime in the late 1930s.
It was not just a different time, it really was a different country, unrecognizable to citizens today. Who the fark are we to judge the thoughts of AP Hill as to his loyalty decisions. He wasn’t a traitor. He was a valiant soldier of the STATE he came from.
That said, as a Ohio born and bred Yankee, we won so I got no use for battle flag waving southerners. And what really cracks me up is yokels in northern states whose ancestors may have fought for the north flying confederate flags. Farkin fools. Give it a rest. The south is not gonna rise again.
I love this guy. He invented the concept of TOTAL WAR. His methods were used to defeat the Germans and Japs in WW2. Destroy the civilian infrastructure and the soldiers will lose the will and means to fight. He changed the concept of war. And because of that concept, nobody really wants a WW3. 22 million civilians dead in the last one. Bill Sherman may have single handedly put an end to Total War by inventing it. I hope.

 

[mrsrobinson]

Thing is , here we go… back then there was a very weak if non existent Federal govt. it really was the United STATES of America. A concept most people today can’t comprehend. Reason a LOT of West Point grads went back to fight for their STATE. There was no CARB enforcing their will on the other X STATES. The reason Bonnie and Clyde evaded capture for so long by crossing STATE borders. Feds as we know today didn’t really exist until sometime in the late 1930s.
It was not just a different time, it really was a different country, unrecognizable to citizens today. Who the fark are we to judge the thoughts of AP Hill as to his loyalty decisions. He wasn’t a traitor. He was a valiant soldier of the STATE he came from.
That said, as a Ohio born and bread Yankee, we won so I got no use for battle flag waving southerners. Give it a rest. The south is not gonna rise again.
I love this guy. He invented the concept of TOTAL WAR. His methods were used to defeat the Germans and Japs in WW2. Destroy the civilian infrastructure and the soldiers will lose the will and means to fight. He changed the concept of war.
View attachment 137745

Wow, that’s deep. Really deep, might have a thought in a year.

 

[Pirate Lady]

 

[Pirate Lady]

 

[dwna1a]

So now nextdoor is full of posts from left wing liberals complaining about the traffic. They had to detour traffic through our neighborhood so the construction workers could remove the monument. And like people will do, they are speeding, blowing through stop signs, trying to bypass the detour, etc. And the detour goes through an elementary school that a lot of the local neighborhood kids walk to. I continue to reply stating that must have been one of the risks addressed when all of you asked for the Statue to be removed, and it sounds like you accepted the risk. They reply saying I'm insensitive. I also remind them the police that they are now demanding enforce the traffic are the same police they continue to want to defund.

If I disappear for a period of time it's because I'm in the nextdoor jail.

I’ve got your bail

 

[dwna1a]

Do you honor your relatives from any other conflicts? How would you feel to have a WWI,WWII, Korea, or Vietnam memorial taken down because it hurts someone’s feelings towards Germans, Japanese, Italians, N Koreas, or N Vietnam?

If the plan is to remove the past off Monument Ave. remove ALL the monuments. Slash the historical value of all the homes along it. Wipe it all out like it never happened. No slavery, no conflict, no reparation It never happened.

My relatives of the CSA DID NOT fight for the south, it was their honor to fight for Virginia. Almost all give their lives for Virginia. yes their loyalties to the Confederate States were misplaced but ponder this. Put yourself back into the 1800’s, we’re would your loyalty lie? Your family and your home. Mine to this day is Virginia, as messed up as it has gotten. My past family, my current family we are Virginians. Am I proud of Virginia and it’s ties to slavery, no but that is part of the past I can’t change it. Slavery did not start in the states, it stated in Africa when one group raided another. To keep from fighting the same men again they sold them to the other countries and slavery began. It spread to every country in the world. Like the plague.

Removing these memorials won’t change a thing. After they are gone what’s next.

Stonewall’s tactics are still used today. Lee and his use of train networks to increase mobility, his tactics are still studied. The CSA did many things invented many things that none had dreamed of before. Water based mines, torpedoes, ironclads, and true submarine.

 

[keokie]

Thing is , here we go… back then there was a very weak if non existent Federal govt. it really was the United STATES of America. A concept most people today can’t comprehend. Reason a LOT of West Point grads went back to fight for their STATE. There was no CARB enforcing their will on the other X STATES. The reason Bonnie and Clyde evaded capture for so long by crossing STATE borders. Feds as we know today didn’t really exist until sometime in the late 1930s.
It was not just a different time, it really was a different country, unrecognizable to citizens today. Who the fark are we to judge the thoughts of AP Hill as to his loyalty decisions. He wasn’t a traitor. He was a valiant soldier of the STATE he came from.
That said, as a Ohio born and bred Yankee, we won so I got no use for battle flag waving southerners. And what really cracks me up is yokels in northern states whose ancestors may have fought for the north flying confederate flags. Farkin fools. Give it a rest. The south is not gonna rise again.
I love this guy. He invented the concept of TOTAL WAR. His methods were used to defeat the Germans and Japs in WW2. Destroy the civilian infrastructure and the soldiers will lose the will and means to fight. He changed the concept of war. And because of that concept, nobody really wants a WW3. 22 million civilians dead in the last one. Bill Sherman may have single handedly put an end to Total War by inventing it. I hope.
View attachment 137745

William Sherman most definitely did not invent total war. It has been with us as long as war in almost every culture including European, Asian, Middle Eastern, African, Native American, and so on. Total defeat including the crushing, killing, torturing, raping, enslaving of one's enemy and their entire civilian population is incredibly, and unfortunately woven into our existence.

As far as the Civil War, I'll admit I was always a little puzzled even as a child by the Confederate statues to generals and other leaders, because they were in fact fighting to preserve slavery. But I do feel differently about the Confederate soldiers. Even in the South, the very vast majority of whites did not own slaves.

It is clear most Confederate soldiers were fighting for something they may or may not have agreed with, but in either case, they likely did not participate in slavery. I think the thing to understand is when an army comes to your city and burns it down with your home, there is an enormous impulse to fight back, regardless of the moral issues driving your attackers.

And let's not forget the racist riots in New York and other Northern cities that opposed the Civil War based on the view that slaves deserved to be slaves. I always take a pause and realize that in America, we have always been significantly interwoven.

Slavery is grotesque and is a stain on all of human history. The fact that slaves existed in America was not unique in history, though, it was the norm.

What is unique is America fought a brutal war and nearly destroyed itself to end it. Ironically, we were kind of following the lead of Great Britain on this human rights issue, but America was still at least very close to the tip of the spear.

But name the country that has shed more of its own blood and paid a higher price in the name of ending slavery. That is why it is always so troubling to me that this country is so often besmirched for being the norm when it engaged in slavery, and so often ignored for being a world leader in ending it.

None of us alive today are responsible for supporting or opposing slavery. And had we been alive then, our opinions would be likely to reflect those that raised and influenced us.

So, I take no pride in ending slavery, and no shame for its prior practice. I like all of you was party to neither.