Sundancer 40 vs 42

[swaterhouse]

Currently in the market for what we thought was a Sundancer 40 in the 2007 year range. Got an interesting boat sent my way by a broker about to list a low hour 2004 420 that has my interest peaked.

Besides the obvious 4' longer, 10" wider, heavier and the second head what would your preferences be?

The 2007's were looking at have either QSB380's or one has QSB425, the 2004 420 has the 6CTA.

Have read many of the 40 threads, and the whole 42 thread and seems like besides a few annoyances people love their 42's. On many of the 40 threads there are almost as many people suggesting the 42/44 or 48 as there are that love the 40.

Does any one have experience with both, or did you look at both and why did you end up with what you did.

The 420 is about 10-20K cheaper than the 40's.

I have heard such good things about the QSB engines, and like they have the electronic monitoring, but the 6CTA seems like a great engine as well.

 

[Ididntdoit]

Way better off with the 42/44 IMHO......99.9% of them are diesel whereas a lot of the 390/40 are gas....that makes the deisel 40s a little more unusual thus they sell at a premium. Does the '04 you are looking at have a hardtop? that would be a major reduction in price and something you should consider when comparing the two.....

 

[Rocket]

Cummins Motors, 6CTA is a mechanical diesel, without Common Rail fuel system(older technology) There is no vessel view for this motor. They smoke a bit in cold weather. QSB is a fully electronic diesel and have zero smoke. Maintenance on both is very similar. Preference for me is a quantum(q series) motor. My 48 has the QSC which is just a larger block to the QSB.

I have seatrialed a 40da with QSB380 and it is a good running boat at 21.5 knots. Then i seatrialed a 420 running at 25.5 knots and the boat just felt right. There is something about running the 420/44da that is just perfect. With one season in on my 48 da, i still miss running the 420.

What are your plans for this boat? How many people will be doing overnight? 2 people overnight the 40da is fine, more than that the extra head makes the 420 better.

 

[swaterhouse]

The 420 I am looking at has the hardtop, that's a must for me.

Interesting comment about the smoke, how much smoke are you talking and at what temps. My wife hates deisel smell, we trialed a 2004 390 with the half electronic half mechanical engines (380ce I think they were) in 50 degree weather and she didn't notice a hint of smell.

Were a family of three, daughter is turning 2 this summer. I grew up taking long weekends and 1-2 week boating trips and would like to bring that to her life. Wife and I did several overnights on our 28 Grady, but three is way too many for that boat. We may take friends and family for an overnight or two, but mainly just the three of us.

 

[JV II]

The 420 is the better boat and better value, plus it's bigger. There would be no question in my mind if it were me. 420 all the way. My dock neighbor has one and it is big, beautiful, and runs like the wind. The only thing better is a 48DA.

 

[CAMELLA]

The 420 is the better boat and better value, plus it's bigger. There would be no question in my mind if it were me. 420 all the way. My dock neighbor has one and it is big, beautiful, and runs like the wind. The only thing better is a 48DA.

Agree!

 

[Alex F]

The 420 I am looking at has the hardtop, that's a must for me.

Interesting comment about the smoke, how much smoke are you talking and at what temps. My wife hates deisel smell, we trialed a 2004 390 with the half electronic half mechanical engines (380ce I think they were) in 50 degree weather and she didn't notice a hint of smell.

Were a family of three, daughter is turning 2 this summer. I grew up taking long weekends and 1-2 week boating trips and would like to bring that to her life. Wife and I did several overnights on our 28 Grady, but three is way too many for that boat. We may take friends and family for an overnight or two, but mainly just the three of us.

The fact you get most comments suggesting going with 420/44 vs. 40 shall give you a good hint that this would probably the best move, long term. Big boat, tons of comfort and it'll open up much more cruising opportunities, whether it's just 3 of you or you have a new born, or you just have extra company. My advice in upgrade of such size is always to think few years down the road. A new boat is "big" for relatively short time, then it goes into "just enough" and then into "I wish it was bigger". The point is that if you go the 40 route, chances are that you'll be feeling "I think we need a bigger boat" perhaps in couple of years. If you go 420/44 route, you might keep it for many years and the investments into maintenance and enhancement will pay off better.

Smoke on 450c, an easy control item. First of all, make sure that grid heaters (aka air heaters) are in good working order. If you're planning to boat when it's 40's and 50s outside, then you'll need to invest in to oil pan heaters. Problem solved. Ever since I installed oil pan heaters, my mild smoke (with working grid heaters) went to very little smoke. However, there's never a case of ZERO smoke. I don't know if zero smoke applies to QSB380. In any event, this should be the last thing to worry about as a deciding factor.

QSB380 is a great engine of "new generation". However, 450C (6CTA block, which is also used used in 480CE), is a very simple and a proven work horse that's been tested for MANY years in all kind of applications. Now days it's used in "new generation" common rail versions QCS500, QSC540 and QSC600.

One of the questions you need to ask yourself is whether you're more of a KIS (keep it simple) or all latest bells and whistles type of person. When I was moving up, the plain vanilla mechanical 450C is what I was after. I knew that I will be taking long open water cruises and simple is what I was after. When I asked our diesel expert Frank W. for advice, he simply said that the last thing you want is to be in a situation where 50 miles offshore the engine electronics "are not playing nice with each other". 4.5 years later, I love my engines.

My 0.2c FWIW.

Good luck.

 

[Woody]

The fact you get most comments suggesting going with 420/44 vs. 40 shall give you a good hint that this would probably the best move, long term. Big boat, tons of comfort and it'll open up much more cruising opportunities, whether it's just 3 of you or you have a new born, or you just have extra company. My advice in upgrade of such size is always to think few years down the road. A new boat is "big" for relatively short time, then it goes into "just enough" and then into "I wish it was bigger". The point is that if you go the 40 route, chances are that you'll be feeling "I think we need a bigger boat" perhaps in couple of years. If you go 420/44 route, you might keep it for many years and the investments into maintenance and enhancement will pay off better.

Smoke on 450c, an easy control item. First of all, make sure that grid heaters (aka air heaters) are in good working order. If you're planning to boat when it's 40's and 50s outside, then you'll need to invest in to oil pan heaters. Problem solved. Ever since I installed oil pan heaters, my mild smoke (with working grid heaters) went to very little smoke. However, there's never a case of ZERO smoke. I don't know if zero smoke applies to QSB380. In any event, this should be the last thing to worry about as a deciding factor.

QSB380 is a great engine of "new generation". However, 450C (6CTA block, which is also used used in 480CE), is a very simple and a proven work horse that's been tested for MANY years in all kind of applications. Now days it's used in "new generation" common rail versions QCS500, QSC540 and QSC600.

One of the questions you need to ask yourself is whether you're more of a KIS (keep it simple) or all latest bells and whistles type of person. When I was moving up, the plain vanilla mechanical 450C is what I was after. I knew that I will be taking long open water cruises and simple is what I was after. When I asked our diesel expert Frank W. for advice, he simply said that the last thing you want is to be in a situation where 50 miles offshore the engine electronics "are not playing nice with each other". 4.5 years later, I love my engines.

My 0.2c FWIW.

Good luck.

I remember when you were boat shopping, it sure doesn't seem that long ago. My remaining years are being used up way too fast.:lol:

 

[copb8tx]

Prior to buying my 420 I had a contract on a 390 that we were second in line for. The first buyer ended up taking the boat but I would've been very happy to have it. Once it was gone we continued to look and came across our current boat. One thing I said when looking at the 390 was that I could care less about a second head, wasn't like there was a line out the door waiting on the can when I had my single head 400EC. After having several overnight guests I can say I changed my mind. It's great for them the use the head far away from me and I REALLY like having a solid door to the aft cabin so I don't disturb the guests when I get up earlier than everyone else.


I'm on a lake with gassers so I can't comment there but as far as the boat goes I'm very happy with that the first buyer took that 390. BTW, there was a significant interior upgrade to the 420 in 2005 so you may want to look at some of those boats. Also, in 2006 they added the big hull side windows. Really wish I had those.

 

[CAMELLA]

Another thing to consider since you live in the Northeast, is cockpit heat. Do both vessels have cockpit heat and ac? The heat in the 420DA I had would melt you which really helped during the early and late boating season.

 

[Rocket]

The 420 I am looking at has the hardtop, that's a must for me.

Interesting comment about the smoke, how much smoke are you talking and at what temps. My wife hates deisel smell, we trialed a 2004 390 with the half electronic half mechanical engines (380ce I think they were) in 50 degree weather and she didn't notice a hint of smell.

Were a family of three, daughter is turning 2 this summer. I grew up taking long weekends and 1-2 week boating trips and would like to bring that to her life. Wife and I did several overnights on our 28 Grady, but three is way too many for that boat. We may take friends and family for an overnight or two, but mainly just the three of us.

Smoke occurred below 70 degrees, not horrible by all means, i dont mean to scare you away on this motor. The 6CTA was extremely reliable for me. As Alex suggested the Air intake grid heaters must be activated at that temp. Some people disconnect them as they tend to tax the batteries and alternator. Given your description of your family and use of the boat i would opt for the 420. That second aft head is a huge benefit and you have the second cabin with a door for your daughter. Slide that door shut when she goes to bed and the boat is yours. Camella brings up a great point about cockpit air. Many of the 2004 420 did not have them nor did mine. 2005 and on they were pretty standard. Having it now is a must have going forward. Being able to put up the canvas on a damp night and running the cockpit air is a great benefit, especially on long trips. If you can swing some extra coin, look at the 2006/2007 44da. It has the QSC500 motors and all the upgrades needed for that hull. My guess you can pick up a lightly used NE boat in the $275k range.

 

[anchors aweigh]

Wanted to add my two cents. We are a family of 4 with 11 year old girl and 9 year old boy. Our family typically spends60+ nights on our 2001 310. We like the Sundancers since we love spending time in the cockpit. We started to look at 42/44 as the 48 was just out of our price range. We opted for a 2007 40 in part it gave us very similar layout between both boats and hit our price point for a very clean boat You do have to love the 44 cockpit though. Anyway we Found the price delta about 50k for comprable clean boats and shared head since not much entertaingin suits us True diesel 40 are few and far between so hope that pays back when comes time to sell. We are shooting for this to be our bridge boat between now and when we can aford 3 staterroms on our retirement trawler..

 

[fwebster]

Smoke on start up is a product of cold fuel partially burning in a cold cylinder. It only happens on start up, unless there is a mechanical problem with the injectors/pump. Almost all diesels will smoke a little when cold, but the electronic controlled ones lean out the fuel delivered until the temperature rises to limit the smoke. The only time you will find the smoke on start up to be objectionable is if you advance the throttle and then you will fog the marina.

Given having a mechanical engine like the 6CTA or the 6BTA vs. a QSB or QSC, I'd pick the mechanical engine every time. The Q series Cummins are based on the B and C series blocks and lower ends so there isn't a material difference in the engines except the higher hp ratings which Cummins gets by increasing the rpms and alittle better fuel management with ECM control. I've got Cummins Q engines all around me in our marina and every one of them has had an engine go into Guardian mode and their trip home from off shore was lengthly at about 1000 rpms. In nearly every case, the problem was a sender or something simple that depowering the ECM and powering up the engine again fixed. With mechanical engines as long as you have 12V to the fuel supply relay, the engine is going to run, unless, of course, you have a mechanical failure that shuts the engine down.

If you will study the Sea Ray archives you will see that sea Ray started measuring boat differently about the time the 420DA was discontinued so I don't think you are comparing apples and apples. The 420 is really the same size as the 44DA, so if you get right down to it, your comparison is the 40DA to the 44DA.......not a 40 to a 42.

Hands down, there is no question, I'd pick the 420DA............... or go look for a good 44DA!

 

[Zach312]

Really is a hard question to answer as it depends on your preferances. All I can do is tell you why we ended up with a 2007 40 Sundancer.

We had a 2001 380 sundancer and 'wanted' a 48 sundancer and still do However we are priced out of those in our current financial situation.

Our requirments for our new boat were

- Hard top
- Diesel power
- Cock pit heat/air
- Hydrolic lift

Since we couldn't afford a 48 we started looking at diesel 44's with a lift. One thing we noticed find 44's with a lift isn't that easy. I would also add there are quite a few gas powered 42/44's out there especially in the upper midwest. At the end of the day we where looking at 290-320k for a good clean freshwater low hour 44.

We started accepting that maybe we didn't want to be north 300k if we couldn't have our 48. Found a 2007 40 with every option except auto pilot (which we don't use on the upper mississippi) low hours (338) on QSB 425's and a lift closed on it jan 5th under 250k. Will have it detailed, delivered, and splashed in a month.

For us (my wife and I) the squared off layout of the 40 vs older 38 works better and space wasn't an issue on the 38. Of course we wanted bigger but we are extremly happy with the 40 and will enjoy it until we can afford to jump up to the 48/50. Keep in mind we add the 'requiment' of a hydrolic lift and that is 26k to install if not already on the boat so our search was limited to a smaller selection. One last thing to keep in mind in 2006-2008 the windows in the 40/44's are a lot nicer. Not a deal breaker but we like as much light inside as we can get. Just something that you can't change on the 04/05's

Happy shopping

 

[swaterhouse]

Really appreciate all the comments so far.

Having looked a little closer based on the comments looks like the 2004 didn't have the cockpit heat/ac option and that is something we really wanted. Suppose we could add a heater that ran off the engine water but that wont help in port. The late fall is some of the best times out on the water for us, being able to have some heat would really extend our season.

I guess with Franks and others comments I am not so worried about the 6CTA\QSC debate, but its probably a mute point since there are currently no 2005 models available in the northeast with the cockpit ac option so that bumps us up to a 2006+ (that almost all have the cockpit ac option) and they all have the QSC. Even better is we really like the bigger windows of the 2006+ models

Big questions for us now is the extra head and better ride/faster cruise worth the price jump?

Again thanks for your help, hoping to join the Sundancer owners group this spring!