Sterndrive for Big Express Cruisers?

[bsteven43]

Guys - Looking to upgrade from my current 280DA to a 38 or so express cruiser. The 2005 390 is actually my number one choice but I've come across the Rinker 390 Express recently. There is one for sale with Volvo Diesel I/Os. A - I didn't know boats this big came in a sterndrive option and B - I didn't know you could get a diesel sterndrive.

Set aside please your thoughts on Rinker and please provide me your insights into a (diesel) sterndrive boat of this size.

The obvious (to me) downsides of sterndrive are manoeverability at low speeds/around the dock and of course, the corrosion issue with the outdrives being in the water. Are there other downsides? This boat has a bow thruster and we're freshwater boaters so I don't see those downsides as being that significant.

Upsides are:
Fuel efficiency that seems about 40%? better or so than the equivalent IB set up
Top speed about 25% higher than the equivalent IB set up
Much more mid cabin space - presumably because the engines are set back?
Ability to draft less water with outdrives raised.

Guys - what am I missing here? There must be more drawbacks than I'm aware of.

 

[geriksen]

The biggest drawback is higher maintenance. Sterndrives need to be pulled and serviced every year. Also the bellows all need to be changed every four years. Yoke seals fail every two or three years. Lower shift cables go out every three or four years. Engine couplers fail if they are not greased and the alignment checked. Etc. etc. etc.
On a large boat this means lots of "haul outs" which also cost money. On smaller boats they are fine because the boats are easy to get in the shop + they run in the 40/50mph range where sterndrives really shine.
We have a shop in a big marina full of twin engine sterndrive powered midsize cruisers and let me tell you, they are good business for us.
They run, smoother, go faster, use less gas, are quieter, etc. etc. All of that sounds really good in a magazine test article. For me, if it is over 32' I prefer inboards in the real world.
They also handle better around the dock than sterndrives.
I have some freinds with a 2004 320 with inboards and it runs great. Also, I think Sea Ray just introduced maybe a 300 with inboards too?
If you plan on keeping your boat until it is only a year or two old and then trading it in the sterndrives are fine. After that they start to cost $$$$$$
It is a personal choice. For some folks the extra speed and milage is worth it.

 

[Dave S]

The other thing to think about is resale especially if a potential buyer can choose between the same boat with I/Os or V-drives. The V-drives will usually sell better and command a higher price as well. (Rinkers all have outdrives so they are an exception). Plus if you destroy an outdrive and have to replace it, it could cost you a bundle especially if it's a Bravo Drive.

My own personal preference if given the choice would be V-drives over outdrives. But there are also plenty of folks who are perfectly content with outdrives.

 

[Riptide III]

Brad, remember, there is an A$$ for every seat. I am sure to ruffle alot of feathers here. I do agree there is more maintenance involved with a stern drive. Not quite as much as posted above. I have VP's on a smaller boat, 32' and they have been virtually maintenance free (21 year old boat). You dont need to pull them every year and cables ect dont fail quite as often as posted above. The thing that strikes me as way off base and I am surprised to see this posted on what I consider to be one of the best boards and most knowledgable people. Is what is stated above in ref to handling. Folks, pay attention to this! Stern drives are MORE maneuverable then straight props. When was the last time you backed a twin with straight props. Drives turned are more effective in reverse than rudders on stright props (yes I know we all use gears to back down, but you have to compare all modes). I don't want to pi$$ anyone off, and I welcome anyone to school me on this. I dont pretend to know it all, but I think I have alot of experience in the 30 -40' range with many different power set ups. Im new to this board and only want us to educate each other.
Phil

 

[fwebster]

Aside from the whole i/o vs inboard thing where the i/o's make no sense, unless you are a speed freak, my worry would be parts and service for a pretty rare power combination. Volvo has very limited presence in some parts of the country.....dunno about where you are, do you?

 

[skolbe]

Volvo's may not require annual maintenance. But try owning a Bravo for a few years without annual maintenance. Bravo's need annual maintenance.

 

[bsteven43]

Aside from the whole i/o vs inboard thing where the i/o's make no sense, unless you are a speed freak, my worry would be parts and service for a pretty rare power combination. Volvo has very limited presence in some parts of the country.....dunno about where you are, do you?

Frank - You are one of the more knowledgable members on the board and ordinarily I'd take your comments at face value - but I have to ask you to explain how I/Os "make no sense".

The fuel test data I saw was for gas and the Rinker 390 with gas I/Os got a little over 1 mpg at 35mph. The equivalent boat with IBs would do well to get .7 mpg no? Over the course of a 100 hour season, that could add up to about 1,000 gallons less fuel. At $3.50/gallon, that's $3,500. The I/O version will hit 45mph WOT versus what, 38mph or so? Not really the stuff of speed freaks, just nice to have the extra speed if you need it. The other huge thing is the amount of space the stern drive set up on the Rinker affords the boat in the mid-cabin. It is huge.

As for the parts issue you raise, that's a good point. I have no idea on parts availability, I would have to look into that before making a move.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince anyone on the Rinker, I'm just trying to think through the benefits/tradeoffs. Is it possible that with new outdrive technology (like Volvo Ocean Series) and the rising price of gas that some of the old I/O vs. IB arguments need to be revisited?

 

[Dave S]

Brad

You are hearing folks opinions and I guess that's what you asked for. Just keep in mind when people give their opinions they all have reasons for feelng the way that they do.

So let me give you one more thought on Mercruiser Stern Drives and tell you about a situation at our Marina. Once a bellows gets a hole in it either thru old age or thru a friendly Muskrat chewing a hole in it, water almost certainly comes into your bilge. Then it's a matter of whether the bilge pumps can keep up and the batteries don't fail or the pump itself fail because if that happens, you could sink the boat............and you need to do a haul out to fix everything. Now for a very real situation at our Marina right now. Many of our boats are trapped in their slips due to low water in the Marina. They cant be moved because the water is too shallow. And everyone who is still in their wet slip has their outdrive raised because of low water conditions. When you raise the outdrive you expose the bellows...........just what Muskrats like. And every year someone gets their bellows chewed up. The only problem right now is if this happens to one of these boats there is not enough water to get the boats out of their slip and even if there was they can't get them out of the water with the forklifts because the water is too shallow. So when a muskrat chomps on one of these bellows there isn't much one can do..........that's if the owner even notices it since they have no reason to come to the Marina now because they can't use their boats anyway.

This is one design of all Mercruiser Stern Drives I do not like at all. I do not believe the Volvo drives can suffer the same fate but I may be wrong.

 

[geriksen]

Riptide
is one of the luckly ones that has "sweedish" Volvo drives. They are very durable but they quit making them for the u.s. years ago. And even those have steering helmet issues, trim cylinder leaking issues and they take a standard 33C control cable and put one end of it under water where it was never designed to go. For reliability the sweedish volvo is as good as it gets but you cant get them anymore.
The newer drives are fine too IF you maintain them...... You can skate by with less maintenance on that sweedish volvo and still be ok. However, we have seen many that have had leaking bellows for years. Nobody notices the problem until the u-joints blow and the whole tail shaft housing has to be replaced. You have to pull the motor to change the gimbal bearing. So even those can "getcha". Also, don't let significant water get in the bilge on any sterndrive boat or the transom will rot. Then the boat will take on water around the transom plate. Then everything has to come out. Not trying to scare you guys. It just pays to know where the problem areas are. If you want to know......

On a 25' boat a Bravo or a duoprop Volvo works great. On a bigger boat I would consider inboards.

btw. I am both a Mercuiser and a Volvo dealer. I wish the new trend would be 50 ft boats with four gas engines and Bravo III stern drives on the back. Yes, yes, that would be the best............ ;-) $$$$$$$$$$$$$

" the real question is about the new "Azipod" type drive that the builders are pushing on the "big" (40ft) boats right now. I have not run one but I hear they work really well.
My question would be this.......

If you are looking at buying a 6year old boat (half the length of the average loan) that has been used in salt water, what would you pay for a sterndrive/azipod boat vs an inboard?

My guess is that the inboard will hold it's value better. the next few years will tell that tale.
We shall see.......
Maybe I am just an "old schooler"

 

[osd9]

.........The fuel test data I saw was for gas and the Rinker 390 with gas I/Os got a little over 1 mpg at 35mph. The equivalent boat with IBs would do well to get .7 mpg no? Over the course of a 100 hour season, that could add up to about 1,000 gallons less fuel. At $3.50/gallon, that's $3,500. ..........

Running a boat that gets 1 MPG vs .7 MPG will definitely save you $$$ on fuel....but your numbers above are a little off. In a 100 hour season, Unless you start'em up and jump on plane....100% of the time....then you are more like the average boater who will spend some time idling at the dock, idling into and out of a harbor, idling through no wake zones and idling just for the sake of idling and enjoying the scenary....probably more than 30 of those 100 hours will be at a speed where both setups, for all intents and purposes, will have the same fuel burn. Also...the average boater puts on LESS than 100 hours a season, but the percentage of idling will most likely stay the same. That means that the actual anual $$$ savings will be less.

......btw. I am both a Mercuiser and a Volvo dealer. I wish the new trend would be 50 ft boats with four gas engines and Bravo III stern drives on the back. Yes, yes, that would be the best............ ;-) $$$$$$$$$$$$$ .....

I hear that Gary plans to replace his 6 outboards with 4 I/O's....he'll be your best customer.....:grin:

 

[fwebster]

On a boat this size, my makes no sense comment comes more from the practicality of the drive system than anything else.

I mentioned speed, and speed and efficiency are really t he same benefit. True i/o's have less drag so they run more efficiently/faster, but in a boat this size, only a speed freak uses the speed. Most of us running larger boats spend a lot more time at below max cruise than we do near or above it. Wakes and safety are part of the reason, conserving the engine and mechanicals is part of it, but the other part of it is that the trip is more fun than the destination.

The makes not sense also comes from the maintenance factor. Out drives need maintenance annually....bigger drives sometimes more than that. On a boat this size, you are looking at the scheduling of and cost of a haulout to service drives and that means the drive service is going to be at a boat yard, not a Volvo dealer which drastically increases cost due to travel times. A boat that can be lifted on a fork lift is a different story.

A boat this size needs assymetrical thrust to handle at idle speeds in crowded conditions and twin i/os are too close to gether and the thrust tis too far behind the boat to give that to you. Sure, it may have a bow thruster but all that will do is push the bow. The stern is going todo its own thing and the boat is going to handle like a refrigerator around the dock.

Having 4 gear cases running under water on a 39 ft boat as compared to one with all the mechanicals inside where its warm and dry?........makes no sense to me.

I also don't like the quality of investment in a huge i/o powered boat. UNless it is a go-fast, there are aa lot more folks who will pass and not even look at it compared to an inboard.

And a Rinker...........I'm not a brand basher, but take a look at any 5 year old Rinker and then look at a 5 year old Sea Ray and you tell me which boat you really want to own as she gets some age on her.

Sorry if I offended, but I call 'em as I see 'em...............

 

[Riptide III]

Dont forget that a bad stuffing box will sink an inboard and you have 4 on a twin if you consider the two rudders. That being said I am not anti IB. I have just taken posession of a 360 express with twin IB. Stern drives do shine in some areas. If you boat in shallow water as I do. At a moon tide my boat sits on the bottom at my dock. My 32 with sterndrives allow me to get back to the dock when IB's would be digging through the mud. There are many things to consider and when you really get right down to it, you need to go with whatever makes YOU feel good. After all, boating does not make sense anyway. If you want to do the smartest thing, dont buy a boat, save your money for your retirement and go out with your freinds on their boats.
Phil

 

[bsteven43]

On a boat this size, my makes no sense comment comes more from the practicality of the drive system than anything else.

I mentioned speed, and speed and efficiency are really t he same benefit. True i/o's have less drag so they run more efficiently/faster, but in a boat this size, only a speed freak uses the speed. Most of us running larger boats spend a lot more time at below max cruise than we do near or above it. Wakes and safety are part of the reason, conserving the engine and mechanicals is part of it, but the other part of it is that the trip is more fun than the destination.

The makes not sense also comes from the maintenance factor. Out drives need maintenance annually....bigger drives sometimes more than that. On a boat this size, you are looking at the scheduling of and cost of a haulout to service drives and that means the drive service is going to be at a boat yard, not a Volvo dealer which drastically increases cost due to travel times. A boat that can be lifted on a fork lift is a different story.

A boat this size needs assymetrical thrust to handle at idle speeds in crowded conditions and twin i/os are too close to gether and the thrust tis too far behind the boat to give that to you. Sure, it may have a bow thruster but all that will do is push the bow. The stern is going todo its own thing and the boat is going to handle like a refrigerator around the dock.

Having 4 gear cases running under water on a 39 ft boat as compared to one with all the mechanicals inside where its warm and dry?........makes no sense to me.

I also don't like the quality of investment in a huge i/o powered boat. UNless it is a go-fast, there are aa lot more folks who will pass and not even look at it compared to an inboard.

And a Rinker...........I'm not a brand basher, but take a look at any 5 year old Rinker and then look at a 5 year old Sea Ray and you tell me which boat you really want to own as she gets some age on her.

Sorry if I offended, but I call 'em as I see 'em...............

You certainly didn't offend me and I hope I didn't offend you. I don't own a Rinker - I own a sterndrive 280DA. I'm just intrigued that Rinker is offering the sterndrive in the big express and my challenge was just intended to get to some of the logic you explained in this second message.

Really, as I said, I'm wondering if the old rules about when I/Os don't make sense any more versus IBs (based on size) need to be revisited relative to new technology in the outdrives and fuel prices. Does the tradeoff of higher maintenance costs on I/Os for instance become less significant when you look at fuel savings nowadays.

Anyway, you've made several good points and Dominic corrected my rough savings assumptions. In the end, SeaRay, Tiara, Regal, etc, aren't making sterndrive 40 footers for a reason.

Okay, now back to my search for a 390DA with twin Cats.

 

[Four Suns]

Okay, now back to my search for a 390DA with twin Cats.

Outboards... you need to get one with 3 gas outboards on it.

In the marina here in Hampton, the size of boats with outboards keeps getting bigger and bigger. There are several 35 foot class boats here now with triple outboards on the back.

 

[islandhopper00]

If a manafacturer would build a 26ft cruiser with big honking outboards on it I'd write the big depreciation check. I'm looking at Scout Abaco 262's now. Just wish I could afford them. Not really a cruiser but has cruising amenities on a fishing boat. Scout is building a 350 with outboards, whew! The outboards have even less maint. tilt the outboards clear of the water (no corrosion) power package is all located outside of the hull. Ease of repowering. Fuel efficient due to the new four stroke designs. And more power. There are 350 hp models now, and who knows how high that number could go. Draw back, who wants the bulky look of outboards hanging off the transom? Well if you grew up with it like I did they become rather strong looking. Remember the picture of the drug boat with 9 outboards on it? Cool!

 

[Four Suns]

The new 36 foot Grady Whites (with a cabin) have 3 x 350 HP outboards... I think they look great... and haul ass. There are a few more "fishing/cruising" boats that have the 3X on them now as well... much better set up in salt water than stern drives and especially in rough water. Don't have to worry about swamping the engine room.

 

[Dave S]

:smt038:smt038:smt038:smt038:smt038

 

[islandhopper00]

Woops, 8 outboards, thanks Dave.

 

[Dave S]

Mike talk to Larry about a Boston Whaler.........there is a whole series of cruisers in their line up.

 

[JeffM]

If a manafacturer would build a 26ft cruiser with big honking outboards on it I'd write the big depreciation check.

Makes the swim platform hard to use, though.

Guess it depends on your planned use of the boat. We use ours mainly for water sports and anchoring/swimming, where ease of boarding is important, and the deep, full-width swim platform is very nice to have.

I'm glad there's more than one manufacturer out there....to each his own!

Jeff