So Are We Ready to Decouple from China Now?!

[Chris-380]

As a US manufacturer, it doesn’t work that way. Somethings you can’t even find here. And you have to keep up with the joneses.

Ties are made in the USA..... just not trumps ties.... his daughters stuff either.... I try to buy USA when availability, just really hard.

take new balance shoes....all used to be made here, now most are made overseas... any decent looking pair is made overseas, the stupid old man pair is all they make here. Is that because of not being able to, or that the kids don’t gaF where it’s made.... I vote for door number 2....

Redwing boots, many are made overseas.... I buy thorogood boots now, all made in USA that I have seen

 

[Blueone]

The other problem buying American is the part can be designed in CAD in Indonesia ...the program for the mold and machining be programmed in India, the part cast in China ...then machined and assembled in USA... with made in America stamped on it

 

[hottoddie]

If you take an automated cell creating 50,000pcs/yr.. the cell is approx $800k and you put one in China and one in the USA of approx the same size company. The absolute best you can do is come within 10% in piece price.I have done the comparison countless times.... the customer will take the 10% from China every time

Does that 10% take shipping and quality (IE warranty costs) concerns into account. Most of agree that made in China is made like crap and would pay somewhat more for quality products.

 

[Iprof]

There is some evidence that as the standards of living increase in China and their associated labor costs are also increasing. This means that production costs are going up. Some producers are shifting their production our to China to other areas like Vietnam, Philippines, and Thailand. This is the case in my industry (printers, copiers, and related office equipment).

Don't ask me for specific evidence; this is what I'm seeing as my company moves production locations. Its been happening for several years.

Exactly.
China did not create the problem we created the problem. Companies in the US decided that they would open factories or enter partnerships with companies in China to make products for the American people. This didn't start with China, it started with Japan they made cheaper products for us and when their standard of living increased we switched to Korea and when their standard of living increased we switched to China. When China's cost of living increases we will find another country to make our products at a price we all like. If a business makes a widget and pays 20.00 an hour but can get the same widget built in China at 6.00 a week why make them here.
I was in Sam's club in Lakeland wondering around trying to find something not made in China. An associat asked if they could help me I said yes show me something not made in China. He pointed at an out door fire place and said it's made in Mexico.
Manufacturing is never coming back as we knew it those days are long gone.

 

[Blueone]

Does that 10% take shipping and quality (IE warranty costs) concerns into account. Most of agree that made in China is made like crap and would pay somewhat more for quality products.

I have a a lot of experience with Cummins .... Cummins designs their parts (be it in China) so you are buying a properly designed quality part...with a ton of specs and quality requirements. So that is the exception....and nothing to be concerned with you are getting a quality part... not cheap because they increase their profit margins ...you pay the same or what they can get away with.
I have been in foundries there in China ...I mentioned before where they reverse engineer for instance Caterpillar parts...probably Cummins too and sell them in the aftermarket world.... that would be scary. Because they will cut corners on tolerance and material specs to increase margins.
If you are talking about walking around a harbor freight that’s a whole other story..

 

[carterchapman]

If you are talking about walking around a harbor freight that’s a whole other story..

i call that place “China Freight”!!

 

[Golfman25]

Does that 10% take shipping and quality (IE warranty costs) concerns into account. Most of agree that made in China is made like crap and would pay somewhat more for quality products.

One of the things we found when trying to source tooling from china. If we let them to the tool design it was cheap -- who knows what you get. As soon as we gave them a detailed tool drawing and specs to meet -- it matched our price.

 

[Golfman25]

Exactly.
If a business makes a widget and pays 20.00 an hour but can get the same widget built in China at 6.00 a week why make them here.

Because they are our enemy. The want to kill us.

 

[ttmott]

Exactly.
China did not create the problem we created the problem. Companies in the US decided that they would open factories or enter partnerships with companies in China to make products for the American people. This didn't start with China, it started with Japan they made cheaper products for us and when their standard of living increased we switched to Korea and when their standard of living increased we switched to China. When China's cost of living increases we will find another country to make our products at a price we all like. If a business makes a widget and pays 20.00 an hour but can get the same widget built in China at 6.00 a week why make them here.
I was in Sam's club in Lakeland wondering around trying to find something not made in China. An associat asked if they could help me I said yes show me something not made in China. He pointed at an out door fire place and said it's made in Mexico.
Manufacturing is never coming back as we knew it those days are long gone.

"China did not create the problem we created the problem" - Correct
"Companies in the US decided that they would open factories or enter partnerships with companies in China to make products for the American people". - Not exactly correct
Our tax and fee greedy government (federal and state) along with all of the overbearing agencies and their compliance requirements and represented labor drove the companies out of the US for sake of solvency. The only thing that kept aerospace and defense companies here was ITAR compliance and "buy American" FAR requirements.
But in some respects you are correct and should be poking companies like Nike in the eye for they have good options to buy American and opt to not. Think about the Nike cost of a pair of tennis shoes out of China at $6 and sold in the US for $150.....

 

[hottoddie]

"China did not create the problem we created the problem" - Correct
"Companies in the US decided that they would open factories or enter partnerships with companies in China to make products for the American people". - Not exactly correct
Our tax and fee greedy government (federal and state) along with all of the overbearing agencies and their compliance requirements and represented labor drove the companies out of the US for sake of solvency. The only thing that kept aerospace and defense companies here was ITAR compliance and "buy American" FAR requirements.
But in some respects you are correct and should be poking companies like Nike in the eye for they have good options to buy American and opt to not. Think about the Nike cost of a pair of tennis shoes out of China at $6 and sold in the US for $150.....

That's one more reason to buy New Balance. Most are made in the US plus you can get them in different widths. Went to their factory store 2 months ago when they had a 50% of store and got 2 pairs off sneaker in wide width for $55. Never pay big $$ for China made Nikes.

 

[Chris-380]

Most new balance I see at the shoe store are made in China these days.... the old man horrible look are made in the USA.... haven’t put on a pair of Nike shoes in 40 years

That's one more reason to buy New Balance. Most are made in the US plus you can get them in different widths. Went to their factory store 2 months ago when they had a 50% of store and got 2 pairs off sneaker in wide width for $55. Never pay big $$ for China made Nikes.

 

[dvx216]

You can thank Walmart for getting all our manufacturing companies on board with them and then once they were the only game in town they started squeezing them to cheapen the price of their product and when they couldn't they would drop them which closed their doors. First it was the textile industry then Rubbermaid and all the dominoes just kept falling the story continues until we are where we are at now. Maybe this virus will show the American people what a lot of us already know the cheap products form the China hurts the country across the board and takes the food off the table of the American labor force.

 

[Third Edition]

Ultimately we consumers are the cause of all this.

 

[JVM225]

Ties are made in the USA..... just not trumps ties.... his daughters stuff either.... I try to buy USA when availability, just really hard.

take new balance shoes....all used to be made here, now most are made overseas... any decent looking pair is made overseas, the stupid old man pair is all they make here. Is that because of not being able to, or that the kids don’t gaF where it’s made.... I vote for door number 2....

Redwing boots, many are made overseas.... I buy thorogood boots now, all made in USA that I have seen

The cost of making things here is high and it’s hard for a company to be competitive if they make things here.
IMHO: The quality of things made in the USA is superior, but sometimes people weigh price against quality.

Many years ago I worked with a guy that had a relative who owned a company. He made plastic clothes hangers and employed about 50 people here in NYC.
One day, about 30 years ago, he had enough and decided that he had to do something drastic to save his company. Taxes, union demands, etc. had gotten to him.
The guy sold his building, moved the company out of state and offered valued employees the opportunity to move with him. Many did.
Several years later he had to fold anyway. He couldn’t compete with Made in China products.
Our government shouldn’t have let that happen!
They should have put tariffs on the stuff coming in from China, and other places, that were high enough to level the playing field.
Another epic failure by our federal government which was probably due to members of Congress and career bureaucrats lining their own pockets and campaign funds.

 

[Spark600]

I own an electrical business as the electrical union requires we buy American made products, Sometimes we can not find the products made in America but we can find the product made in China and assembled in America and this is OK with the unions.
Just another way unions get around things.

 

[Third Edition]

Out of solutions, save one. If you don't like the situation with China, don't buy Chinese goods. Part of the problem or part of the solution? Your choice.

 

[Chris-380]

I own an electrical business as the electrical union requires we buy American made products, Sometimes we can not find the products made in America but we can find the product made in China and assembled in America and this is OK with the unions.
Just another way unions get around things.

I Don't think that is the "union getting around things"

if you can't get it made in the USA, common sense says you will have to buy from another provider,

Dang the skilled IBEW labor is making you and your company money, surprised you make them a scape goat...

 

[Chris-380]

You can thank Walmart for getting all our manufacturing companies on board with them and then once they were the only game in town they started squeezing them to cheapen the price of their product and when they couldn't they would drop them which closed their doors. First it was the textile industry then Rubbermaid and all the dominoes just kept falling the story continues until we are where we are at now. Maybe this virus will show the American people what a lot of us already know the cheap products form the China hurts the country across the board and takes the food off the table of the American labor force.

Yep, Walmart would fly the USA flag, then in the backroom, beat the supplier up for cheaper cost and actually help them move their business overseas

 

[JVM225]

I wear Saucony to the gym but New Balance the rest of the time I wear sneakers.
My kids call my New Balance sneakers “Dad 11’s” because they are Dad shoes and I wear size 11.
The freshest pair is for wearing around town. The older pair gets put in the garage and used for dirty work and washing cars.
The kids went nuts one day last year when they noticed I was wearing two different New Balance sneakers when heading out to go work on the boat.
During a senior moment I must have mixed up the old garage pair with their replacements and kept one from each pair by mistake.

 

[ttmott]

I Don't think that is the "union getting around things"

if you can't get it made in the USA, common sense says you will have to buy from another provider,

Dang the skilled IBEW labor is making you and your company money, surprised you make them a scape goat...

Be aware when the US manufacturers were trying to cut costs in the 70's to be competitive with the Japanese entry into the US marketplace the unions would not budge and consequently a component of their own downfall and thus the beginning of the Asian influence. The Federal Government under Jimmy Carter brought new and ominous tax and regulative impacts to corporate America further putting the nail into American manufacturing. Much or our large mass production has gone to robotics even when shown in the short term manual labor was a better value to ensure a stable predictable "workforce". I'll give you an IBEW example - one of our larger projects in the aerospace sector (early 2000's) was piping and wiring a large assembly structure; about a $12M electrical contract. The union agreement was such that when an electrician was more than two steps up on a ladder he received "high pay" which was 1.25 X rate. We learned a lot from that experience and now during our down-select process for contractors we discuss their labor agreements. Now Florida where we are is a Right To Work State which prevents represented labor strongholds however for government contracts prevailing wages are paid; prevailing wages are typically negotiated union rates less benefits. I think Mi, Ny, Il, and Ca could learn a lot from the Right to Work states as it's these states in my opinion that will be the last to recover.