QSM-11 VS 3196TA's

[All's Well]

I'm looking at 510 & 540 Dancers and it seems like the options are QSM-11's or 3196TA's.

What's the wisdom, is one more durable than the other?

 

[tobnpr]

Oh no.....here comes the Cat vs. Cummins debate...
I guess the gas vs. diesel one is worse though.

Since you're talking used, for me the condition and price of the boat, and the specifics of the engines- hours and maintenance records, would be far more important than "Cat or Cummins". Of course once that decision's made it's still subject to the usual hull and engine surveys. My $.02.

 

[Turtlesboat]

Ooops, I gave a completely wrong answer. I should read before

 

[fwebster]

How about neither of the above.............?

Both boats were produced with 800hp 3406 Caterpillars which are known to be bullet proof and are still supported by the manufacturer. The 510DA with 3406's is a bullet with motors in it.

QSM's are no longer produced and parts/service is going to get more expensive as time goes on. The 3196 has a known problem with aftercoolers. Spend the $ on a mechanical survey done by trained technicians for either one/anything you choose.

 

[tobnpr]

Nuttin' gets by Mr. F.W.!

Guess that ends the thread, huh?

 

[Skuza]

Everytime Frank W mentions the 510 with the rare 800hp engines it gets the juices going. Ever since he said how fast the boat is with those engines combined with the fact it is a huge boat for a 51 footer puts it on my list.
Good luck!

 

[All's Well]

How about neither of the above.............?

Both boats were produced with 800hp 3406 Caterpillars which are known to be bullet proof and are still supported by the manufacturer. The 510DA with 3406's is a bullet with motors in it.

QSM's are no longer produced and parts/service is going to get more expensive as time goes on. The 3196 has a known problem with aftercoolers. Spend the $ on a mechanical survey done by trained technicians for either one/anything you choose.

Thanks Frank,

Good points. I have surveyed 2 540's and walked from both due to the engine surveys alone. I know the history of 3196 issues and was "assurred" that all the updates had beem done and these were in great shape.

I was not aware of the reputation of the 3406's so I appreciate that piece of advice.

Fred

 

[All's Well]

Oh no.....here comes the Cat vs. Cummins debate...
I guess the gas vs. diesel one is worse though.

Since you're talking used, for me the condition and price of the boat, and the specifics of the engines- hours and maintenance records, would be far more important than "Cat or Cummins". Of course once that decision's made it's still subject to the usual hull and engine surveys. My $.02.

That's why I asked for "wisdom" versus opinions, and thanks for yours.

It's not a Cat versus Cummins debate, I used the search feature and did not find the answers that I was looking for. I've had gas boats for 30+ years but never a diesel so please excuse me for trying to educate myself before I go spend some bucks.

 

[tobnpr]

It was said tongue-in-cheek...

Try not to be so thin skinned...we tend to joke around a bit here.

Just do a search on portable generators...

 

[fwebster]

I am a Caterpillar fan and love their engines, but honestly, I'm not sure I'm a buyer of a 3196. I've got friends with them who are on their 5th different set of aftercoolers and are not sure yet if the problem is solved.....other friends with them in 540DA's who have never had a single problem and these are 2400 and 3500 hour engines. Boat money is discressionary so why take an unnecessary $100K risk on a pair of engines in a thing to have fun with when there is another much more satisfactory approach.....i.e. 3406's.

And it isn't all about risk either..........you just have to run a 3406 powered 510 to see. There is something about that much boat that handles like a sports car that just gets your juices flowing.

 

[geriksen]

I agree with Frank on the 3406. That is the way to go.
I had a 580 with 3408's and that boat was a rocket and the engines were trouble free.
I had 500 with 3176's and hated those engines the whole time. They never were right.
34 series is the way to go

 

[All's Well]

It was said tongue-in-cheek...

Try not to be so thin skinned...we tend to joke around a bit here.

Just do a search on portable generators...

No worries ... I understand the routine weekly / monthly question that is a repeat. Thanks

 

[All's Well]

I am a Caterpillar fan and love their engines, but honestly, I'm not sure I'm a buyer of a 3196. I've got friends with them who are on their 5th different set of aftercoolers and are not sure yet if the problem is solved.....other friends with them in 540DA's who have never had a single problem and these are 2400 and 3500 hour engines. Boat money is discressionary so why take an unnecessary $100K risk on a pair of engines in a thing to have fun with when there is another much more satisfactory approach.....i.e. 3406's.

And it isn't all about risk either..........you just have to run a 3406 powered 510 to see. There is something about that much boat that handles like a sports car that just gets your juices flowing.

I appreciate the heads up on the 3406's, search revised :thumbsup:

 

[All's Well]

I agree with Frank on the 3406. That is the way to go.
I had a 580 with 3408's and that boat was a rocket and the engines were trouble free.
I had 500 with 3176's and hated those engines the whole time. They never were right.
34 series is the way to go

Thanks Grant, We've talked a couple times on the phone as I plan to have this boat on Travis. I appreciate the feedback on the 3408's, I see a few available 540's with them :grin:

 

[Four Suns]

I can't really speak to the Cat side of the house as I've never owned them. I do know that the 480 DB's with 3196TA's have a substantially less resale value than QSM-11's and it's probably because of the reputation they had. Sea Ray started putting in QSM-11's in the 480DB in 2003 and it replaced the 3196TA engine. The performance specs between the engines is almost identical (fuel burn, HP, torque, etc.).

I've had the QSM-11's now for 7 years and there have been no "major" issues. The engines don't have any known major issues like after coolers failing, valves failing, blocks failing, etc... However, they have a couple issues with regards to little crap that will drive you nuts and can cause issues if not addressed. Off the top of my head, the four issues that seem to come up with every QSM-11 are the following:

1. Front gear case oil seal will leak. Cummins put on gasket material for the front oil seal that would absorb oil and will eventually fail/leak. The cost to repair this is about $1K per engine and Cummins will not repair it out of warranty (unless you scream enough).

2. Cheap Racor air filter can fall apart and release metal screen into the turbo and pistons. This is one that can be avoided... They put these cheap brown plastic Racor air filters on these engines that were Walker Airsep imitations and if you did not change them at the recommended interval, they will fall apart and suck metal pieces into the turbo destroying the impeller requiring a turbo rebuild (or new one). Look for pitted turbo blades on the intake to make sure nothing has been sucked in. I have no idea what happens to the metal pieces after they enter the pistons... I've read about this happening several times to people and it seems the engines run fine but not sure I would want to own something that had metal parts sucked through it. I replaced my air filters with real Walker Airsep products before this problem showed up.

3. Leaking exhaust manifolds. I've not experienced this but there seems to be a fare amount of reports of the exhaust manifolds developing leaks between the manifold and head. It seems to be on the higher hour engines though... the exhaust is a two-piece dry fit design and the symptoms are soot around the head/manifold joint. It appears the leaks are very small (if they happen) and most people ignore them.

4. Bracket holding coolant reservoir cracks. For some reason Cummins put a bracket to hold the 100 pound cast coolant reservoir on the engine made out of 1/16" steel (from recycled GM cars). The on-engine temp and oil pressure gauges have 1/4" welded plate brackets but the coolant reservoir only qualified for material not worthy to use in a beer can. It cracks... and is a ***** to replace... $2 part.. $2000 labor (mine involved removing the salon floor in the boat to get at one damn bolt that could not be accessed otherwise).

Those are the "major" things... none of them earth shattering. Overall, the engines have a reputation of being very reliable and not blowing up. If you go over to boatdiesel.com, there is a section on them and some people have over 25,000 hours on them. The QSM-11 is built on Cummins M-11 engine which was built from their L10 engine... this basic engine has been around since 1982... and is used in dump trucks, fire trucks, 24/7 power generation and big construction equipment.... so it's pushing 30 years of service on the basic block design but with later versions having stuff added on (electronics, etc.). There are a gazillion of these things out there and they have a good reputation. I was told last year by the local Cummins dealer that they were stopping production of the "QSM-11" and replacing it with something else. I haven't really followed that so I don't know what the "new" thing is...

There are other little things that I've had issues with and you can search my posts as I've put them all up here on CSR. Again, nothing earth shattering IMO. I would own them again in another boat in a heartbeat.

On another note, when I first got this boat I talked to a guy from Cummins about the QSM-11 versus some of the other smaller Cummins engines. He told me that the QSM-11 was an "industrial" design whereas some of the smaller Cummins engines in Sea Rays where a "recreational" design. I have no idea what the hell that means... but he said the boat would be chipped up and put in the landfill before the engines had to be rebuilt (that means they are beefed up engines or my Sea Ray is a pile of crap). The raw water cooling and aftercooler system on these engines are completely different than the smaller Cummins (6BTA, etc) and so problems you see with those engines on cooling/corrosion do not apply to the QSM-11.

 

[Jackie J V]

If you've got the option, 3406's get my vote. They were a requirement in my search for a new boat last year.

The CAT 3406 is the marine equivalent of the C15. Until Caterpillar got out of the on-highway truck engine business last year, the C15 powered about a third of all 18 wheelers on the road. High usage, lots of exeperience and generally known to be bullet-proof. I love the engine.

 

[All's Well]

I can't really speak to the Cat side of the house as I've never owned them. I do know that the 480 DB's with 3196TA's have a substantially less resale value than QSM-11's and it's probably because of the reputation they had. Sea Ray started putting in QSM-11's in the 480DB in 2003 and it replaced the 3196TA engine. The performance specs between the engines is almost identical (fuel burn, HP, torque, etc.).

I've had the QSM-11's now for 7 years and there have been no "major" issues. The engines don't have any known major issues like after coolers failing, valves failing, blocks failing, etc... However, they have a couple issues with regards to little crap that will drive you nuts and can cause issues if not addressed. Off the top of my head, the four issues that seem to come up with every QSM-11 are the following:

1. Front gear case oil seal will leak. Cummins put on gasket material for the front oil seal that would absorb oil and will eventually fail/leak. The cost to repair this is about $1K per engine and Cummins will not repair it out of warranty (unless you scream enough).

2. Cheap Racor air filter can fall apart and release metal screen into the turbo and pistons. This is one that can be avoided... They put these cheap brown plastic Racor air filters on these engines that were Walker Airsep imitations and if you did not change them at the recommended interval, they will fall apart and suck metal pieces into the turbo destroying the impeller requiring a turbo rebuild (or new one). Look for pitted turbo blades on the intake to make sure nothing has been sucked in. I have no idea what happens to the metal pieces after they enter the pistons... I've read about this happening several times to people and it seems the engines run fine but not sure I would want to own something that had metal parts sucked through it. I replaced my air filters with real Walker Airsep products before this problem showed up.

3. Leaking exhaust manifolds. I've not experienced this but there seems to be a fare amount of reports of the exhaust manifolds developing leaks between the manifold and head. It seems to be on the higher hour engines though... the exhaust is a two-piece dry fit design and the symptoms are soot around the head/manifold joint. It appears the leaks are very small (if they happen) and most people ignore them.

4. Bracket holding coolant reservoir cracks. For some reason Cummins put a bracket to hold the 100 pound cast coolant reservoir on the engine made out of 1/16" steel (from recycled GM cars). The on-engine temp and oil pressure gauges have 1/4" welded plate brackets but the coolant reservoir only qualified for material not worthy to use in a beer can. It cracks... and is a ***** to replace... $2 part.. $2000 labor (mine involved removing the salon floor in the boat to get at one damn bolt that could not be accessed otherwise).

Those are the "major" things... none of them earth shattering. Overall, the engines have a reputation of being very reliable and not blowing up. If you go over to boatdiesel.com, there is a section on them and some people have over 25,000 hours on them. The QSM-11 is built on Cummins M-11 engine which was built from their L10 engine... this basic engine has been around since 1982... and is used in dump trucks, fire trucks, 24/7 power generation and big construction equipment.... so it's pushing 30 years of service on the basic block design but with later versions having stuff added on (electronics, etc.). There are a gazillion of these things out there and they have a good reputation. I was told last year by the local Cummins dealer that they were stopping production of the "QSM-11" and replacing it with something else. I haven't really followed that so I don't know what the "new" thing is...

There are other little things that I've had issues with and you can search my posts as I've put them all up here on CSR. Again, nothing earth shattering IMO. I would own them again in another boat in a heartbeat.

On another note, when I first got this boat I talked to a guy from Cummins about the QSM-11 versus some of the other smaller Cummins engines. He told me that the QSM-11 was an "industrial" design whereas some of the smaller Cummins engines in Sea Rays where a "recreational" design. I have no idea what the hell that means... but he said the boat would be chipped up and put in the landfill before the engines had to be rebuilt (that means they are beefed up engines or my Sea Ray is a pile of crap). The raw water cooling and aftercooler system on these engines are completely different than the smaller Cummins (6BTA, etc) and so problems you see with those engines on cooling/corrosion do not apply to the QSM-11.

Great info, ... Thanks

 

[All's Well]

If you've got the option, 3406's get my vote. They were a requirement in my search for a new boat last year.

The CAT 3406 is the marine equivalent of the C15. Until Caterpillar got out of the on-highway truck engine business last year, the C15 powered about a third of all 18 wheelers on the road. High usage, lots of exeperience and generally known to be bullet-proof. I love the engine.

Thanks, I'm glad that I asked the question here. I wasn't even looking at the 3406's ... until now. Now back to the search for the right boat