Possible 410 DA Purchase

Discussion in 'Newbie Lounge - NEW' started by hexplor1, Nov 10, 2011.

  1. hexplor1

    hexplor1 New Member

    5
    Mar 27, 2010
    Burlington, Vermont
    Boatless
    Boatless
    Hi all, I am considering making an offer on a 2001 410 DA that I like a lot. The pre-purchase survey has been completed and the results were good. Some minor repairs needed but nothing that would prevent me from purchasing it after some negotiating. However, this boat has 8.1 gas power and I know diesel power is probably preferred for this boat. But, I have water tested this boat and it runs very well with this package. I also know the boat history very well and like some of the other options it has including a hydraulic swim platform. Who else here owns one? Thoughts on the 410? Also, I am curious about some options to convert the older analog tv's on this boat for now and then upgrading to some flat screens later on. Is it easy to add a converter to each tv?
     
  2. northern

    northern Well-Known Member

    Jan 17, 2007
    West coast Vancouver to Alaska
    380 Aft Cabin 1989 GPS and Charts by Nobeltec
    Twin 454 strait shaft
    Based on my experience with gas engines they work well but you willl land up paying a lot more for fuel and when you go to sell the boat it will be worth less than a diesel. If you do not intend to put lots of hours on it and keep it a long time and the price is right it might be for you. I was once told that gas is a better deal for boats with a weight of 16,000 pounds or less.
    If I was to purchase the same size boat I have now I would get a diesel.
     
  3. Alex F

    Alex F Well-Known Member

    Nov 14, 2006
    East Coast
    2005 420DB with AB 11 DLX Tender, Raymarine Dual E120 MFD/Radar/XMWeather, ST7001 A/P, AIS, SeaLift
    T-Cummins 450Cs Straight-Drives, 9KW Onan Generator, 40HP Yamaha for tender.
    Rick (mistercomputerman) is the guy you want to discuss this. His 410DA has gas engines which were replaced MANY times. Yes, he's got several sets of engines that went bad. They were all brand new.

    IMO, in general, anything like 40+ footer with gas is a lake boat that will have very limited market. It'll use a lot of fuel. But, 410 with gas and hydraulic platform with a heavy dinghy or PWC......geez...you're in for some "ride". My guess, that you'll be burning over 50GPH (possibly more like 55GPH)at your cruising speed. But, that's just a guess based on some numbers I've heard. Rick can give you much better idea.

    Besides technical side, I think that you'll have very hard time selling her (when time comes). So, unless you boat in small area where there isn't much distance to cover and this will be your luxury condo with all bells and whistles, then sure it would be fine. But, just think about everything else as well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2011
  4. northern

    northern Well-Known Member

    Jan 17, 2007
    West coast Vancouver to Alaska
    380 Aft Cabin 1989 GPS and Charts by Nobeltec
    Twin 454 strait shaft
    If I run my boat at 3800 RPM I burn 22GPH per engine
    At 6 knots 1200 to 1400 RPM I burn 3GPH per engine
    Egines have 1900 hours on them and they work as well as they did at 600 hours. They use 1/2 to one quart of oil per 100 hours. When they fail I will probably replace them with gas; but hope the new engines get better fuel economy.
    If I was to purchase a big gas boat my offer would be the asking price less the cost to put diesel engines in it. Do not thing any seller would go for that.
     
  5. rcknecht

    rcknecht Active Member

    Mar 23, 2009
    toms river,nj
    340 Sundancer 2001
    T 454 MPI
    If you can get the boat for around $100K, and you don't plan on going far, you should be ok... The 410 with diesels gets better fuel economy than my 340 by about 10-15%, and diesel cost less... If you don't plan on any long trips you should be OK...
     
  6. Alex F

    Alex F Well-Known Member

    Nov 14, 2006
    East Coast
    2005 420DB with AB 11 DLX Tender, Raymarine Dual E120 MFD/Radar/XMWeather, ST7001 A/P, AIS, SeaLift
    T-Cummins 450Cs Straight-Drives, 9KW Onan Generator, 40HP Yamaha for tender.
    Rod,

    In all fairness, 410 diesel has more optimistic fuel burn rate than you posted. From what I know they get about 1MPG or better, which makes the crusing range around 330NM or so with 335gal fuel tank (if I recall, there's 10% reserve included). IMO, SR produced good range of diesel models (400/410.....450 DAs) that are very economical. They burn around 23-26GPH TOTAL, where CATs will get you little closer to 22-23GPH and CUMMINS to 24-26GPH. That's about 50% less than what northern posted.

    Now imagine that this gas 410 has about over 1500LBs weight (hydraulic platform alone weights about 1K lbs) in the stern and you have to push those throttles much more to keep the bow down with trim tabs fully deployed. That'll bring the fuel burn rate way up there above 50GPH (total), add some wind and seas.....we get the picture.....
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2011
  7. hexplor1

    hexplor1 New Member

    5
    Mar 27, 2010
    Burlington, Vermont
    Boatless
    Boatless
    Thanks for the replies guys. However, not sure I agree with all that has been posted. I tested this boat with full water, fuel, minimal gear and granted only 3 people aboard but we planed quickly with no tabs needed at all and crusied nicely at 26 mph with very little effort. And, diesel is not available at many of the marinas/destiantions we go to. We boat on a freshwater lake with some extended cruising areas and I see the value of the diesels but I was impressed with how this boat performed.
     
  8. Alex F

    Alex F Well-Known Member

    Nov 14, 2006
    East Coast
    2005 420DB with AB 11 DLX Tender, Raymarine Dual E120 MFD/Radar/XMWeather, ST7001 A/P, AIS, SeaLift
    T-Cummins 450Cs Straight-Drives, 9KW Onan Generator, 40HP Yamaha for tender.
    Notice that we never said that she would be underpowered with 8.1s. Your initial imperssion of her performance may and most likelly won't be the same when you load all the gear, fuel and water.

    I can't advise you to buy or not to buy her, but I'm just giving you realistic case scenario, so you can make your decision with some more info in mind. With any boat purchase, the critical part is knowing how you're going to use her.
     
  9. RollerCoastr

    RollerCoastr Well-Known Member

    Nov 15, 2007
    Cedar Point, OH / Miami, FL / MacRay Harbor, MI
    1997 400DA
    340HP 7.4 Mercruiser Bluewaters
    Garmin 8212, 741 24HD, Intellian I2
    1999 280BR
    Twin 250HP Merc 350 Alpha Ones
    Hex,

    I'm approaching 1,300 hours on a 400DA with 7.4's. (the predecessor to the 410DA - essentially the same hull and layout) I've never been one to "stay close to home" or shy from long trips.

    Your first impression aligns with my experience. 400/410DA's are surprisingly light on their feet. I frequently hear "wow" from passengers as we get on plane. In fact, one of my recently-surprised passengers owns a Formula with 8.1's and B3's!

    I cruise at 23-24 knots burning 35-37 GPH at about 3500 RPM, depending on load and conditions. That calculates to about .75 sMPG, which also surprises a lot of people. (even ME. I regret not installing fuel meters sooner than I did)

    That's not actually the most efficient speed, but I have to go considerably slower to get slightly better economy, and some of the slower speeds are LESS economical.

    Load is a significant variable, so I DO agree with the concern about the platform. I would suggest keeping that as light as possible. The 410 has an advantage over the 400 in that area though: the water tank is in the bow, so it can be leveraged as ballast.

    Without the weight or turbo-lag of diesels, the gassers actually get on plane faster and cruise at about the same speed. I can't sleep with the threat of CO, so if I anchored out overnight much, I'd want diesels. These gassers are a challenge in a wind in close quarters, but they're predictable. The only thing I CAN'T do is back-up for any distance - she'll weathervane after much more than 2 boat lengths in reverse.
     
  10. hexplor1

    hexplor1 New Member

    5
    Mar 27, 2010
    Burlington, Vermont
    Boatless
    Boatless
    Thanks for the feedback Roller, very good insights for me at this point in the process! Do you have a bow thruster on your boat to assist in backing maneuvers?
     
  11. RollerCoastr

    RollerCoastr Well-Known Member

    Nov 15, 2007
    Cedar Point, OH / Miami, FL / MacRay Harbor, MI
    1997 400DA
    340HP 7.4 Mercruiser Bluewaters
    Garmin 8212, 741 24HD, Intellian I2
    1999 280BR
    Twin 250HP Merc 350 Alpha Ones
    No, no thruster. It's rare that I have to do that, and she really doesn't have any other bad handling habits. I apply throttle to the reverse engine in close-quarters and I can basically put her anywhere I want.
     
  12. bahamabreisus

    bahamabreisus Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2007
    Hampstead NC
    500 dancer, previous 420,390,300 dancers
    detriot 8v92
    Our 42 was gas, and we loved it, 3-4 gph at putt putt speed, not bad at cruise. Repairs will be much cheaper on gas engines.
     
  13. mistercomputerman

    mistercomputerman Active Member

    Jan 6, 2008
    Virginia Beach, VA
    410 Sundancer - 2001
    Twin 8.1L Mercruisers - 2009
    I am just getting in from work and don't have a great deal of time to be long-winded, so here's the short answer on this boat along with some fuel numbers from last month:
    • The boat is a GREAT boat
    • Handles well in close quarters
    • I have no problem single-handing the boat
    • When I bought it, it looked like an aircraft carrier
    • Diesel boat goes when you put it in gear, the gassers require some throttle
    • Fuel burn is posted below
    • I never go anywhere without a full load of water and fuel
    • I never go anywhere without two tool boxes and a spare everything except motor and transmission
    • I am in the sport for the enjoyment not to save gas/fuel money
    • The boat has made three trips to Altantic City and back from Virginia Beach
    • The boat has made a couple of fairly long trips up to the sissy part of the Chesapeake Bay
    Now, before I go on, I have this to say:

    Dom, Frank H, GW - all of you all can kiss my lily white a$$


    If I had to do it over again, after listening to that wise old sage Frank Webster and knowing what I know now, I probably would have bought a diesel boat if it would pass a Caterpillar marine inspection and the previous owner had ALL the service records evidencing that all the recommended service had been performed at the Caterpillar recommended intervals. There was a lot of hoopla about the 3126 CAT diesels in this make and model of boat and a rebuild on one will set you back about $30k. Not for the faint of heart or pocketbook.

    I felt safer with the gassers (from a repair cost standpoint) even though they cost more per hour to operate. We put some long trips on the boat and I haven't given a thought to fuel after the first fill-up 4 1/2 years ago. I think we burnt $11,000 worth of fuel last year at .6 mpg. If I had a diesel, I would have gotten 1 mpg and saved 3 grand. Half of that was spent trying top keep up with Speed Racer aka Four Suns.

    So, buy the boat if it makes you happy, put on your big-boy pants ('cause if you buy a gasser, your gonna get some crap from the diesel boat owner peanut gallery), tell the diesel boys stuff a sock in it and go boating.

    Clean bottom
    Decent props (looks like they need some tweaking to get to 4600 rpm)
    Adding some cup this year to push the cruise to 23 knots if we can get there
    Little wind and current
    Full water 100 gallons
    Full fuel 335 gallons
    Numbers are from the Flowscans I put in
    Using Aetna digital tachs inplace of the Sea Ray tachs

    2011 OCt fuel burn.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2011
  14. Alex F

    Alex F Well-Known Member

    Nov 14, 2006
    East Coast
    2005 420DB with AB 11 DLX Tender, Raymarine Dual E120 MFD/Radar/XMWeather, ST7001 A/P, AIS, SeaLift
    T-Cummins 450Cs Straight-Drives, 9KW Onan Generator, 40HP Yamaha for tender.
    Rick,

    What's your opinion on having hydraulic swim platform with this 410 gasser and decent size RIB? Were my concerns valid? Looks like my estimated fuel numbers were pretty close to reality.
     
  15. HUMPH

    HUMPH Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2009
    SF BAY AREA
    2003 410DA,
    2004 C14 Caribe
    CAT 3126TA's 350HP/
    50HP Honda
    You normally don't need a bow thruster (I would take one if someone offered though) as the boat handles well, especially with the torque of the diesels. I have a friend that has the same boat you are looking at and it is adequate for the his use which is on inland waterways and occasionally offshore. The hydraulic platform would concern me as that is a lot of weight hanging off of your transom, especially with a dink on it. You can find diesel models for between $150K and $200K so consider that when negotiating.
     
  16. mistercomputerman

    mistercomputerman Active Member

    Jan 6, 2008
    Virginia Beach, VA
    410 Sundancer - 2001
    Twin 8.1L Mercruisers - 2009
    The DA already sits tail-end low at cruise. While I would like to have a hydraulic swim platform for the Waverunner, I don't know that this is the boat to do it on. A fellow needs one of those fancy, smancy diesel bridge boats for all that business.
     
  17. hexplor1

    hexplor1 New Member

    5
    Mar 27, 2010
    Burlington, Vermont
    Boatless
    Boatless
    Thanks for all of the input guys! Obviously, more to think about with this boat but it is definitely in the final running for me since I know the history of it and the survey results.
     
  18. jsilvers

    jsilvers New Member

    19
    Jun 22, 2011
    Edmond, OK
    2001 401DA
    Gas Guzzlers!
    Hex.....I own an '01 410DA. Boat has been everything I wanted and then some. It does have 8.1 gassers and have had no problems with them. Like you, I decided early on that gas was what would work best for me when considering I would be at inland lake, the cost of maintaining, availability of qualified mechanics and quite honestly, the smell! You won't be disappointed in your choice of the 410. Wonderful layout, very easy to operate and no, you won't need thrusters. The look of the 410 can't be beat in my opinion! I stepped up from a 28' Crownline 270BR and must admit I was intimidated when I first took the helm, it seemed to stretch forever! After a few hours on my own with no one distracting me telling me do this, do that, I pretty much figured it out....just go very slow! lol Everybody will have their personal opinions on why and what you should get...but they are just opinions!. Go with what you feel is the best fit for your use. If you keep up the maintenance, troubles will be minimal!
     
  19. RollerCoastr

    RollerCoastr Well-Known Member

    Nov 15, 2007
    Cedar Point, OH / Miami, FL / MacRay Harbor, MI
    1997 400DA
    340HP 7.4 Mercruiser Bluewaters
    Garmin 8212, 741 24HD, Intellian I2
    1999 280BR
    Twin 250HP Merc 350 Alpha Ones
    Wow Rick. No offense, but wonder the diesel guys make fun of your boat. Those performance numbers are pathetic! You only get 19.1 knots at THIRTY SIX HUNDRED RPM!?!? I'm going more than 24 knots at that point, and my original, high-hour engines are burning much less fuel

    Part of the problem is your tankage policy. You're carrying more than 10% of your boats overall weight in those tanks. I prefer to travel as light as conditions and plans allow. Even so, I doubt you could get light enough to get her up to reasonable performance. Something else is amiss.
     
  20. hexplor1

    hexplor1 New Member

    5
    Mar 27, 2010
    Burlington, Vermont
    Boatless
    Boatless
    Thanks for the info Jeff! I also think the layout is great. The cockpit is large and open and the cabin seems very comfortable for overnighting. I am going to look at it again today and check out some more features of the boat. Our season is done here now so the boat will be winterized and shrinkwrapped soon. :(
     

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