Port Transmission v63 Issue

LG111

Active Member
Jan 4, 2015
730
NW
Boat Info
44 Sedan Bridge - 07
Black Hull
Engines
QSC500’s
Hi All,
I am having my 410 - 2001 hauled in a week to have the tranny either rebuilt or go new. Anyone care to guess what the issue is before my mechanic tells me in a couple of weeks?

Well cared for Engine hours 860. 8.1S - V63 Tran, Fluid levels good and cooler is new.

Here is what happened,
After a long "fantastic" 2.5 week vacation and at the time 500 miles in on this trip coming home this is what we experienced in 10 seconds.

First an indescribable sound. Kinda like a plane flying overhead that got loader but not screeching.
Next the dash alarm when off and I felt the boat beginning to loose momentum.
Next a huge Bang like a sludge hammer hitting the hull
Next I powered all the way down.

No issues could be seen in the engine room and put back into gear. Nothing... but a sound like it wanted to engage. After an hour to get to the closest marina on one engine. We tried the gear again. This time it turns forward and reverse but a slight metallic sound in the background. Next day headed home. Slow 7knots @ 1200 rpm both engines for 5 hours and then 4 hours just one engine; No changes. Pulled to a pump-out-dock and tried the gears again; Nothing. Pumped out and tried again; It engaged and off to our slip we went. That was two weeks ago. Currently the tranny engages just fine but there is obviously something wrong as there is metal shavings in the filter and it squeals at a slightly higher RPM.

So back to my question... What do you think happened? The real answer should be known by mid to late Aug.

Thanks,

Mark
 
A couple of questions for you -
Are the metallic particles magnetic?
Was the filter cap fully seated and sealed on the O-Ring?
Is there any ATF dripping from the case?
What color is the ATF and does it smell different?
Was this the port gear?

If it was the port gear then that transmission runs on the countershaft (what ZF calls the "Reversal Shaft") when in boat forward gear which is a known issue in this series of transmissions (63, 80, and 85 Hurth series). The countershaft is poorly supported in the case and has known to fail quite dynamically. The loud whining noise could be a case where the bearings let go and the gear lash is now an interference fit. The gears are helically cut so putting the trans in reverse could reset the counter shaft and allow the boat to go forward again. This repair manual may enlighten you a bit.
http://www.bukh-bremen.de/files/346/upload/Hersteller/ZF/Reparaturanleitung u Ersatzteilliste ZF63IV bis ZF85IV.pdf

Regardless, you can purchase these gears for around $3600 so in many respects not worth spending that amount rebuilding then having the risk of not getting all of the particles out of the unit and still have the weak countershaft/case. One note is make sure you purchase the updated design from ZF; they corrected the Hurth deficiency.
Tom
 
Last edited:
Thank Tom!

I haven't check with a magnet as of yet.
The filler cap was seated properly. Almost a year since the last fluid change and no issues up until now.
ATF dripping: I think so for about a year. Nothing major like a drip or two hanging from the bottom of the case after a two hour run but could never trace it. It was never as red as the ATF and the thought it was the wax coating on the flywheel under heat dripping down but no trace. But it could be ATF if the case seal was leaking ever so slightly I guess. If so, is drip a precursor to an event?
Color is still good and no smell
Yes Port.
I'll check into the updated version.

I'll probably go new, its only a grand more than a rebuild.

Thanks!
 
You dont mention Sundancer or Express, If Dancer, sounds more like V Drive than transmission. We had same issue a few years back. I was looking for a helicopter overhead.
 
Sundancer V63 .... Vdrive.

What was the result of your helicopter sound?
 
Thank Tom!

I haven't check with a magnet as of yet.
The filler cap was seated properly. Almost a year since the last fluid change and no issues up until now.
ATF dripping: I think so for about a year. Nothing major like a drip or two hanging from the bottom of the case after a two hour run but could never trace it. It was never as red as the ATF and the thought it was the wax coating on the flywheel under heat dripping down but no trace. But it could be ATF if the case seal was leaking ever so slightly I guess. If so, is drip a precursor to an event?
Color is still good and no smell
Yes Port.
I'll check into the updated version.

I'll probably go new, its only a grand more than a rebuild.

Thanks!
If the particles are magnetic then indicates bearing, shaft, or gear issues.
AFT dripping from case would indicate possible cracked case; like the bearing retainers for that countershaft.
If AFT color is good and no "burnt" smell then doubt the clutches or hydraulic system are the issue.
That filter cap is critical to seal as the area under the cap is the hydraulic pump suction pressure and if leaks air then the pump will aspirate that air and hydraulic pressure and bearing lubrication will be greatly compromised.
 
Sundancer V63 .... Vdrive.

What was the result of your helicopter sound?
It was the V Drive, not transmission. We were lucky, I was able change it out without pulling the boat.
 
how many hours do the V drives normally make it?
 
The take-away in Post #2 is that you have metal filings in the filter and when that happens, it is nearly impossible to get all the metal out of the transmission's hydraulic system. The hydraulic oil is also the lube oil so the hydraulic pump is sending metal filings thru out the transmission as it runs. Rebuilding one with this much of a failure is a risky proposition since the rebuild kit is about $1500, plus whatever parts are needed like shafts, gears, and bearings that are not in a standard rebuild kit, and that assumes no labor cost and that you do the work yourself. It is a much smarter move to replace the transmission with a new ZF transmission that is a later design so you avoid the counter shaft failure in the future.

I had a similar failure in a Hurth HSW 800. I found it during a regular transmission service when there was metal in the filter wash solvent. We watched it for a year and when the transmission sounded like it had marbles in it at idle, I bit the bullet and replaced the entire transmission with a new one for the exact reason I mentioned above and to save weeks of down time hunting parts and gaskets. The boat was out of the water 2 days instead of 2 weeks -2 months or longer, and most of that time was waiting for paint to dry.

Good luck with it........
 
The take-away in Post #2 is that you have metal filings in the filter and when that happens, it is nearly impossible to get all the metal out of the transmission's hydraulic system. The hydraulic oil is also the lube oil so the hydraulic pump is sending metal filings thru out the transmission as it runs. Rebuilding one with this much of a failure is a risky proposition since the rebuild kit is about $1500, plus whatever parts are needed like shafts, gears, and bearings that are not in a standard rebuild kit, and that assumes no labor cost and that you do the work yourself. It is a much smarter move to replace the transmission with a new ZF transmission that is a later design so you avoid the counter shaft failure in the future.

I had a similar failure in a Hurth HSW 800. I found it during a regular transmission service when there was metal in the filter wash solvent. We watched it for a year and when the transmission sounded like it had marbles in it at idle, I bit the bullet and replaced the entire transmission with a new one for the exact reason I mentioned above and to save weeks of down time hunting parts and gaskets. The boat was out of the water 2 days instead of 2 weeks -2 months or longer, and most of that time was waiting for paint to dry.

Good luck with it........

And likewise on my port gear; replaced the Hurth HSW 800 with the ZF 85IV.
 
and what year did sea ray swap to ZF?
 
and what year did sea ray swap to ZF?

ZF Friedrichshafen AG purchased Hurth in 1995 so I would assume shortly after all of the V drives produced would be the ZF design.....don't know for certain though....

cliff
 
Be sure to flush the oil cooler and lines to clean the metal out. Or even consider replacing the cooler.
 
Thanks Guys! I'll more than likely just buy a new gear! It just baffels me that after 16 years and highly maintained it just gives up with no warning. I really don't think the case is cracked, I think I caught something on the shaft and it just pushed the gear over the top. I know more on Friday after the haulout

Stay tuned,
Mark
 
Update:
Tried to share pic but file too big.
I bought a new gear. Installed this week. Mechanics still wrapping up the basics and I added things like new drip seals on both shafts and change filter & fluid on starboard gear so both are par...
The old gear is on my work bench. I sucked all the ATF out and the ATF sparkles like a chistmas tree. I took a magnet to the inside rim of the filter and it picked up a marble size of small shavings. Powder like. So must indicate bearing or gear failer. All say bearing, since it screeches while in gear. The gear new was $3050. Labor will be near the same. When I get time I will tear down the gear to find the failure.

I'll post again after the test run next weekend.
 
Okay, Mystery solved. The gear was not engaging 100% in forward. More like 95%. Probably like that for several years... Short distances not a big deal but the 700 mile trip was over the top. The clutch plates over that long hual just slipped enough to overheat but not enough for the alarm to go off until the end when the bearings to gave up.
So the lesson here. Check for proper linkage and engagement.
I had the dripless shaft tides packings totally replace with the new version cross overs too. When replacing the starboard seal they found the packing had starved for water and was totally melted inside. It barely dripped water but was on the edge of catastrophic failure!
Now on to our next adventure...
 
Okay, Mystery solved. The gear was not engaging 100% in forward. More like 95%. Probably like that for several years... Short distances not a big deal but the 700 mile trip was over the top. The clutch plates over that long hual just slipped enough to overheat but not enough for the alarm to go off until the end when the bearings to gave up.
So the lesson here. Check for proper linkage and engagement.
I had the dripless shaft tides packings totally replace with the new version cross overs too. When replacing the starboard seal they found the packing had starved for water and was totally melted inside. It barely dripped water but was on the edge of catastrophic failure!
Now on to our next adventure...
I would have thought the clutch plates would have warped causing the boat to stay in drive or completely lock up in both reverse and forward; this is what would normally happen in such a situation. Also the ATF would have turned a brown color and have a burned smell.
 
agree, but only a bearing failed which caused the entire mess. It is what it was...
 

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