NMEA 0183 - Seatalk- Seatalkng

Discussion in 'Electronics Q&A' started by Carpediem44DB, May 18, 2019 at 12:45 AM.

  1. Carpediem44DB

    Carpediem44DB Active Member

    345
    Aug 18, 2015
    Sanfransico Bay area
    2006 44 DB Sedan Bridge Raymarine E120 radar chart plotter GPS autopilot
    cummins QSC 8.3 500 HD
    I've been searching threads on the networking topic trying to figure out the best course of action for networking all of my current equipment with my new gS165. I have the Cummins Vessel View and the 7001 Raymarine Auto Pilot as well as the Raymarine VHF all communicating across what I assume is NMEA 0183. I see an E85001 Interface that my E120 was connected to using just bare wire spurs. The gS165 will accept 0183 data but I want to install Fusion Audio and other goodies down the road so I figure Ill install a Seatalkng backbone to network all of the new equipment. I'm wondering the best way to get the vessel view which I assume was operating thru the E85001 to the E120 to talk to the New gS165 display. It seems to me the vessel view is on 0183 which is converted to Seatalk1 now. Do I now convert again to Seatalkng or go from 0183 directly to Seatalkng? Id like to have all the old stuff that still works and is communicating on 0183 on a single back bone that then interfaces to SeaTalkng. Are you as confused as I am yet? I think Im getting a handle on what I need to do Just looking for more guidance from those who already invented the wheel
     
  2. ttmott

    ttmott PhD in OCD GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 3, 2012
    Space Coast Florida
    2006 52 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins QSM11
    Your Vessel View is obtaining data from the Mercury Cummins Smartcraft networks.
    Your E120 (if as originally installed) operates on Raymarine Seatalk 1, Seatalk HS, and NMEA0183
    Your Autopilot communicates with the E120 via Seatalk 1 and with the GPS via NMEA0183.
    Your Sirius XM Weather, communications between the E120's, and DSM300 depth sounder communicate through the Seatalk HS ethernet network.
    The Smartcraft networks (there are three network data systems for each engine) do not exchange data with the Raymarine data systems nor NMEA0183.
    The Smartcraft three networks are CAN P, CAN H, and CAN V (CAN = Control Area Network)
    If you have Zeus drives then there is a CAN X....
    CAN P is the engine specific data and essentially the industry J1939 standard that heavy equipment and large trucks use.
    CAN H is the boat's propulsion related systems like transmission, rudder position, depth, paddlewheels, etc and are converted to Smartcraft data via those SIM modules mounted on the engines.
    CAN V is used for the generator data. CAN V was discontinued in 2010 and Mercury no longer supports it; this means Vessel View cannot see generator data.
    I have put the Smartcraft network data, Raymarine data, Nmea 0183 and just finished the old CAN V generator data (thanks alnav) all on a NMEA 2000 backbone and adapted the NMEA 2000 to the Raymarine NG. Everything on the boat is now seamless and useable with any upgrades.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019 at 6:58 AM
    superwa likes this.
  3. superwa

    superwa Active Member GOLD Sponsor

    152
    Jul 27, 2013
    Rhode Island
    2001 Sea Ray Sundancer 380
    Mercruiser horizon 8.1S
     
  4. superwa

    superwa Active Member GOLD Sponsor

    152
    Jul 27, 2013
    Rhode Island
    2001 Sea Ray Sundancer 380
    Mercruiser horizon 8.1S
    I’m about to install the Bluetooth vessel view unit to take my systems monitor to another level and this sounds like so much more. I have an 01 380 DA with original plotter, autopilot, etc. If in the future I want to upgrade to MFD and so forth, do companies like raymarine know how to bring the boat up to snuff so everything is networked? I ask because I got lost reading this reply and don’t even know which protocols each piece of equipment I have communicates with.
     
  5. Carpediem44DB

    Carpediem44DB Active Member

    345
    Aug 18, 2015
    Sanfransico Bay area
    2006 44 DB Sedan Bridge Raymarine E120 radar chart plotter GPS autopilot
    cummins QSC 8.3 500 HD
    Did each one of the systems that you put on the NMEA 2000 backbone require a separate interface device? I see several pictogram schematics with equipment connected to the NMEA 2000 but it is unclear how they actually interface.
     
  6. ttmott

    ttmott PhD in OCD GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 3, 2012
    Space Coast Florida
    2006 52 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins QSM11
    I can give you how I did it but there are many different means some not so good.
    Smartcraft CAN P and CAN H (sometimes called CAN 1 and CAN 2) to NMEA 2000 - I used the NMEA 2000 port on my Vessel View 7 to connect to the NMEA 2000 backbone and to exchange the data; this works very well. If you have Diesel View then you will not have a NMEA 2000 port to use and will need to use another means to convert the Smartcraft data. You could possible use the NMEA0183 port on the display then convert that to NMEA 2000 using an Actisense NGW1 but I'm unsure what data will come across.... Another option may be to use one of the Mercury Smartcraft Engine converters but me thinks the CAN H data will be lost; I don't know....
    Smartcraft CAN V (sometimes called CAN 3) to NMEA 2000 - I used a Maretron J2K100 J1939 to NMEA 2000 converter. This is for a Cummins Onan generator with a Network Interface Module installed which will be a Smartcraft NIM. The Smartcraft NIM will need to be converted from Smartcraft data output to J1939 data output which entails cutting one of the jumpers (Jumper W2) on the board and then modifying the data cable for 120 ohm resistors on both ends. The 120 ohm resistors are required on all CAN networks (Smartcraft are the yellow plugs in the harnesses and J-boxes, NMEA 2000 are the backbone terminators, and I used the Smartcraft yellow plugs for the J1939 data cable). If you have Diesel View then this is not required as Diesel View will still display CAN V.
    Raymarine E120 Seatalk 1 to NMEA 2000 - There is a port on the back of the E120's labeled Seatalk 2 or Seatalk NG; this port is essentially NMEA 2000 but requires an adapter cable and junction block to adapt to the NMEA 2000 backbone. Easy Conversion however there are reports that the Seatalk 1 port on the E120 will be disabled when using the Seatalk 2 port. If you have an Autopilot that communicates via Seatalk 1 you may have issues; I changed to an X10 course computer which uses Seatalk NG.
    NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000 - I used an Actisense NGW1 to translate the NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000. I have an original NMEA 0183 depth transducer than is still in use and convert that as a secondary depth sounder.
    Sea Ray Systems Monitor to NMEA 2000 - I used a Maretron RIM100 Discrete Run Indicator to NMEA 2000 to convert all of the system monitor channels to NMEA 2000 data and replaced the Systems Monitor Display with a Maretron DSM410 NMEA 2000 display. I did a write-up on that mod on this Forum.
    GPS NMEA 0183 to GPS NMEA 2000 - Replaced the Raymarine GPS with a Garmin GPS-19X which has a NMEA 2000 output; now all of my helm instruments have GPS; no brainer....
    VHF NMEA 0183 data - This data remains connected to the original NMEA 0183 data network that connects to the E120 NMEA 0183 port.
    I hope this helps - below is the schematic drawing of my system but doesn't yet have the Smartcraft CAN V modification shown.
    52DB Data Network Systems Monitor.jpg
    52DB Data Network Systems Monitor RevA.jpg
    52 DB Generator Data Changes.jpg
    NIM Modifications.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019 at 12:50 PM
    gmacd81 and Chris-380 like this.
  7. Zach312

    Zach312 Active Member

    507
    Jan 23, 2011
    Hudson, WI
    2008 Sea Ray 48 Sundancer
    Cummins QSC 540's
  8. Zach312

    Zach312 Active Member

    507
    Jan 23, 2011
    Hudson, WI
    2008 Sea Ray 48 Sundancer
    Cummins QSC 540's
    Looking for the easiest way to get from my Smart Craft vessel view (original to the boat) to Raymarine Gs16 screens.
     
  9. alnav

    alnav Member GOLD Sponsor

    825
    Sep 16, 2009
    West River, MD
    40 MY
    QSB 425
    Any given manufacturer will sell you a system that is well documented and can be perfectly integrated and with a well defined upgrade path as long as you stay within their ecosystem. As soon as you try to mix components from other companies, there will likely be integration issues. The electronics suppliers tend to create their own versions of standards to keep you within their lifelines, for example, Raymarine SeatalkNG is close, but not quite, NMEA 2000. Adding a component from another supplier might mean a special adapter to convert to NMEA 2000, then another to convert the NMEA 2000 to SeatalkNG at the hardware level. At the software level, the devices might not be able to fully communicate even if they are able to be physically connected. A good installer can overcome lots of these issues, but it's probably best to pick a manufacturer and stick with their equipment for the standard navigation/communication suite.
    Upgrade of components outside the nav suite is a whole other can of worms. Smartcraft is a great example. It's never been well documented and even though it started as a cross-platform vision, it's highly focused on Mercury engines these days. The secret here is a lot of research, forum questioning and putting together a detailed plan for where and how far you want to go. Ttmott has provided a great example for this.
     
    ttmott likes this.
  10. Carpediem44DB

    Carpediem44DB Active Member

    345
    Aug 18, 2015
    Sanfransico Bay area
    2006 44 DB Sedan Bridge Raymarine E120 radar chart plotter GPS autopilot
    cummins QSC 8.3 500 HD
    Thanks for such a detailed description of what you did. It will help a whole lot as I work thru this upgrade. It seems that I am in good company as several others are doing similar work. Did you have to just figure this out on your own or did you find a resource to guide you? Very few aircraft owners do their own Avionics installs mainly due to the regulations that require certification and FAA documentation. The several avionics installs that I did on my various aircraft over the years was child's play in terms of integration anyway. Way different animals. Seems as though so many marine products are designed for the DIY market but when it comes to integration we are on our own. Just too many variations for someone to offer integration guidance and sell proven install packages. We are lucky to have guys like you on the forum that are willing and able to help.
    Again thanks for the effort
    Carpe Diem
     
  11. ttmott

    ttmott PhD in OCD GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 3, 2012
    Space Coast Florida
    2006 52 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins QSM11
    Expertise from Forum input and Google tenacity. It's like listening to our Politian's - 99.9% of what they say is no value added but there is that 0.1% nugget that gives you that "aha moment"....Not that I'm throwing any of our friends here under the bus, seriously.
    Here is my advice:
    • Look to the "end game": what is the ultimate goal to where you want to be in your upgrades / modifications and do what it takes up front to meet those goals. Try not to do anything that you will need to tear out later to achieve the ultimate destination.
    • Plan your boat systems around a stable data systems standard: Get a NMEA 2000 certified backbone routed through the boat (engine room to the helm). Almost all quality hardware for marine electronics is being NMEA 2000 certified; even audio entertainment equipment. This is not to say NMEA 2000 doesn't have issues, like a single point failure on the network power supply which will take everything down; but, if you know what you are doing split up the backbone into separate power zones to enable continued operation should a power fuse blow and limit the carnage or run redundant backbones.
    • Install / connect NMEA 2000 certified electronics and hardware to the backbone. There are non-certified electronics out there that may crash your NMEA 2000 data system and can consequently put you and your boat at risk; and when it does crash, how does one determine what caused it? I'm a big advocate of Maretron electronics; they are certified, stable, and bullet proof; probably why they are popular with the blue water boats.
    • Understand your existing hardware and electronics; is it worth trying to adapt to a new common network? The law of diminishing returns is in play here; Look at the old NMEA 0183 network for example, it's time to ween off of NMEA 0183. There is, unfortunately, Smartcraft and it's evolutions which are so intertwined with the boats engines and helm that replacing is not an option. Adapting to Smartcraft requires knowledge of the system in which there is little data out there unless you are a certified technician with access to Mercury engineering and data; consequently, for most, using the Mercury Smartcraft to NMEA 2000 gateways is probably the safest approach. Of course there is that "we don't need to tell the customer" factor on new equipment; Diesel View to Vessel View is a great example - what buyer / installer would have known that Mercury dropped support of one of the Smartcraft data networks (most Mercury technicians don't know that) with the Vessel View evolution?
    • And, of course, Raymarine: Why they won't simply certify and integrate their equipment with the NMEA 2000 standard is mind-boggling... Again as I stated above "Look to the end game", Raymarine goes out of their way to ensure their hardware is not upgradeable and difficult to play well with others. You need this adapter or that cable to connect to this or that and to add their newer generation equipment to previous generations of Raymarine hardware is hit or miss.... Simply go to the Raymarine Forums and read through some of the official Raymarine commentary. There are better options out there.
    Tom
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019 at 5:20 AM
    Chris-380 likes this.
  12. Carpediem44DB

    Carpediem44DB Active Member

    345
    Aug 18, 2015
    Sanfransico Bay area
    2006 44 DB Sedan Bridge Raymarine E120 radar chart plotter GPS autopilot
    cummins QSC 8.3 500 HD
    Great advice Tom, I am definitely taking my time on this, I kind of jumped the gun on buying the 165 because the E120 died and I didn't want to just replace it. once I get the right gps Antenna to work I will be back to where I was in terms of basic info at the helm. The rest is just sparkly trimmings to doodle with for me. I'm going to design the system that I eventually want to live with and then build it as I go along. The first thing I will be doing though is getting the NMEA 2000 Back Bone installed and then possibly see about upgrading the Smartcraft to the most current iteration before I attempt to integrate to the MFD. I know that if I adapt my current 13 year old system now it will decide to call it quits! Thanks again for the advice. I may reach out occasionally for a hand and certainly share what I'm doing and learning.
     
  13. ttmott

    ttmott PhD in OCD GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 3, 2012
    Space Coast Florida
    2006 52 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins QSM11
    Here is an edit to my previous posting, in red below:
    Smartcraft CAN P and CAN H (sometimes called CAN 1 and CAN 2) to NMEA 2000 - I used the NMEA 2000 port on my Vessel View 7 to connect to the NMEA 2000 backbone and to exchange the data; this works very well. If you have Diesel View then you will not have a NMEA 2000 port to use and will need to use another means to convert the Smartcraft data. You could possible use the NMEA0183 port on the display then convert that to NMEA 2000 using an Actisense NGW1 but I'm unsure what data will come across.... Another option may be to use one of the Mercury Smartcraft Engine converters but me thinks the CAN H data will be lost; I don't know.... Mercury Smartcraft makes two NMEA 2000 gateways- one is for CAN P - P/N 8M0151748 and one for CAN H - P/N 8M0095543. You would be into this conversion for about $1K; might be a better solution for several hundred more to step to a new Vessel View display....
     
  14. Zach312

    Zach312 Active Member

    507
    Jan 23, 2011
    Hudson, WI
    2008 Sea Ray 48 Sundancer
    Cummins QSC 540's

    We have the smart craft vessel view and both ports are in use.

    I was told we needed this part to make the conversion to NMEA 2000 so we could then get to the Raymarine MFD.
    https://www.sbmar.com/product/smartcraft-multi-engine-1-4-nmea-2000-gateway/

    Is a new vessel view the way to go? If the above part will do the job I am assuming I need some sort of adaptor as I don't have any open ports on the back of the smart craft display
     

    Attached Files:

  15. ttmott

    ttmott PhD in OCD GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 3, 2012
    Space Coast Florida
    2006 52 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins QSM11
    Is not one of those capped ports NMEA 2000?
    If it is NMEA 2000 you will not need any other converter as long as both CAN P and CAN H are integrated into the VV.
     
  16. Zach312

    Zach312 Active Member

    507
    Jan 23, 2011
    Hudson, WI
    2008 Sea Ray 48 Sundancer
    Cummins QSC 540's
    One looks like USB and the other a phone style jack.

    The part i referenced above apparently plugs into the J box (the source of the wiring that plugs into the vessel view) then i will need to convert from NMEA 2000 to Seatalk to get the data into the Raymarine MFD's

    Does this sound right? I can't get to the boat to investigate until later this week.
     
  17. ttmott

    ttmott PhD in OCD GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 3, 2012
    Space Coast Florida
    2006 52 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins QSM11
    I believe you will find two different Smartcraft Gateways available which specifically interface with the boat's Control Area Networks (CAN); one for CAN P which is the engines systems and one is for CAN H which is for the other connected hardware to the Smartcraft system like DTS, fuel level, rudder position, depth, speed, and whatever else. The one you reference is for CAN P. In the Smartcraft connectors and J-Boxes pins G&H are CAN H (sometimes called CAN 2), J&K are CAN P (sometimes called CAN 1), and C&D are CAN V (sometimes called CAN 3). The earlier Diesel View displays did not accommodate CAN H but all Vessel View did from my understanding. CAN V is generator which is supported by Diesel View but not Vessel View.
    I would be cautious about stacking gateways...
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019 at 5:23 AM

Share This Page

Show Sidebar