Newbie Paranoia Time

[Dave 205]

Did my t-stat open?

I flushed my system using a Camco gravity tank with Mercruiser -50 Propylene Glycol yesterday. (Worked pretty slick!) The Camco folks repeated several times that removing the t-stat for extra assurance is good. But, there wasn't time for the scope creep and another trip to the dealer for parts.

I've never had cooling problems, my dash guage seems to work well, and the engine slowly warmed to 170, and I let it sit for about 5 minutes at operating temp before starting the transfusion.

Is there any logical reason for concern at this point?

I tend to go the conservative route on things, so now I feel guilty for not pulling the t-stat.

 

[alwhite00]

I always pull the t-stat just so I don't need to worry about it.

LK

 

[Lazy Daze]

Dave, did you at least drain all the water out, first?

 

[paulswagelock]

Sort of - yes.
Scenario 1 - Since you started with a system full of water, the block cooling loop was full. If the tstat went back closed, then it would have just recirculated the water as the antifreeze went out the exhaust - leaving a block full of water.
Scenario two - the tstat did open, but you did not run on AF long enough to reach full strength antifreeze, and the block has a diluted mixture only good into the 20s or so.
Scenario 3 - all is fine

Take a hose off the tstat assembly and check a sample from inside, or drain a little from the block and check it. That is the only way you will get rest this winter....

I suggest you always drain everything first, following all the recommendations on clearing out the taps if needed, before running on antifreeze. The block cooling loop will draw in antifreeze as soon as you start up until it is full, then the rest of the system will fill.

If it was me, I would be checking a sample or redoing it - $20 bucks in antifreeze beats $4k for a replacement engine.

 

[Dave 205]

Dave, did you at least drain all the water out, first?

I'm thinkin' that may be my newbie mistake. No. Redo?

 

[Lazy Daze]

Yeah, I think you just gotta bite the bullet and redo.

Scrap the bucket method. It's not hard to do it the right way and really doesn't take long.

You won't need to run the engine at all doing it this way (other than "fogging", if wanted to to do that)

If you've already done the fogging, this is about a 10 minute job.

-- Drain everything - poke the holes to make sure there's no build of sediment
-- Remove the hoses from the t-stat housing and pour pink into them until it backs up in the hose
1) Block hose (big one)
2) Intake water hose (it's the odd sized one) This one will drip out through the water intake on the outdrive
3) Exhaust water hoses. These will drip out through the exhaust ports on the bottom of the transom plate. Check them out - they're about the size of two fingers.

5 gallons will be more than enough to do all this. Now you are guaranteed to have pink everywhere.
--

 

[paulswagelock]

Dennis,
Looking at the flow loop for my boat (modern 350 mag with cool fuel and 3 point drain), simply pouring antifreeze into the hoses on top will not allow AF to reach the cool fuel module, the raw water pump, or the lower unit. There is a check valve just behind the cool fuel unit that blocks AF from reversing back to the raw water pump or the lower unit.
So, if I do not draw in through the lower unit, big problems. That is why I have always used the "bucket" or pump method through the lower unit.

You do many boats, what do you do in this case, which would represent a good portion of boaters?

 

[alwhite00]

On my boat there seems to be places where I can not simply drain the water out so that is why I choose to do the bucket method. I drain the exhaust and the engine, Pull the t-stat, Close the drains and suck it out of the bucket till it is spitting pink out of the exhaust.

I am sure this is not for everyone but I really like doing it this way.

LK

 

[Lazy Daze]

You do many boats, what do you do in this case, which would represent a good portion of boaters?

Hi Paul,

Sea Ray's (at least none of the ones I've ever seen - including the newest ones) do not use the check valve you are referencing. Once in a great while I come across another brand that uses it. But, in my experience, it probably only represents about 5% of the boats I see... if that. Nearly all do not use the check valve. However, in those cases I remove the hose from the valve. It depends on how the hose is run, but usually I can just remove the hose off the backside of the valve and fill with AF there. Then, hold the valve-side hose higher than the t-stat housing to drain the water (pour some AF in there if you feel it's needed, based on height). For some friends, I've replaced the valve with a hose-to-hose nipple so it doesn't have to be done, anymore.

Dave has an Alpha drive so it is simpler for him. The "valve", raw water pump (lower unit for him) and cool fuel issues are not of concern to him when doing it the way I mentioned above.

As far as the raw water pump with a Bravo, newer ones have blue drain plugs so it makes things easier. Otherwise, I'll slide off the hose that exits the pump. Then, "bump" the engine a few times (remove the "kill" switch so the engine doesn't start) to evacuate any standing water still in the pump. The Bravo pump will still self drain - just not as quick as an Alpha. Bumping is not needed with an Alpha.

 

[Lazy Daze]

On my boat there seems to be places where I can not simply drain the water out so that is why I choose to do the bucket method. I drain the exhaust and the engine, Pull the t-stat, Close the drains and suck it out of the bucket till it is spitting pink out of the exhaust.

I am sure this is not for everyone but I really like doing it this way.

LK

LK- out of curiosity, what places can't you get to? It sounds like you've got everything? By "exhaust", you mean manifolds, right?

 

[wish2fish]

I've had good success using the "bucket" method. Fortunately my boat is stored indoors for the winter but my brothers is not. I usually end up running 6 gallons through to make sure to remove as much water as possible.

Dennis, I disagree that pulling the hoses is just as easy. I found it to be a pain in the butt.

Dave, your avatar shows a boat in a garage. where do you keep it in the winter?

 

[alwhite00]

LK- out of curiosity, what places can't you get to? It sounds like you've got everything? By "exhaust", you mean manifolds, right?

Yes, The manifolds are drained. It just seems as if there are some low lying hoses & such that I can not get to drain, It just is a PITA to pull the hoses off and re-connect them. I am not even sure what I am disconnecting, I just tried to get all of the water out. I just found it easier to do it with the bucket.

LK

 

[Lazy Daze]

Well, I hardly think that removing a few hose clamps and sliding the hoses off the nipples classifies as a pain in the butt, but to each his own, I guess. Trust me - if there was a faster way to guarantee that all the water was out (including the upper part of the block), that there was a full concentration of AF in there, and use a minimal amount of product doing it, we'd do it differently at the shop. Time is money, you know? When you do almost 500 winterizations over the course of about 2 months, it would all add up.

Removing the stat (and draining the block) and using the bucket is probably fine. But it's still about the same amount of time. Plus, it's not really fair to charge a customer for a new stat every year. If someone wants to do it on their boat, that's fine - I won't hold them back since it's certainly not hurting anything. But it would 't be right to do it to every customer.

 

[Lazy Daze]

Yes, The manifolds are drained. It just seems as if there are some low lying hoses & such that I can not get to drain, It just is a PITA to pull the hoses off and re-connect them. I am not even sure what I am disconnecting, I just tried to get all of the water out. I just found it easier to do it with the bucket.

LK

The low lying hose is probably the intake hose (offhand, I think that would be the only one?). On some engines, it runs along the top of the engine, while on other engines it is routed under the engine, then up to the housing. If you've got a system that you're happy with, great. But, if you were so inclined, all you would need to do is pour AF backwards through that hose till it fills up. Let it drain for a few seconds and do it again, if you were so inclined.

If the hoses have been on the nipples for a while, there are a few tricks to make it easier.

I'm not saying this to beat a dead horse, but once you've done it a time or two, it really does only take 10 minutes (if that).

 

[Dave 205]

The moral of this story is going to be pull your t-stat when flushing with anti-freeze, or pour in through the housing at the top and rest well in winter.

With a cold snap tonight, my paranoia took over, and I thought I should at least drain the block. All three plugs pulled yielded about 2 gallons of very pink stuff. I may test it and verify / salvage.

My guess is I was probably good, but the points raised in this thread are very well put: Better to be sure then spend $4,000 in the spring.

I was a little surprised it was just 2 gallons. Thoughts?

Asking the obvious since it is implied in this thread - a t-stat must cycle open and closed a bit the keep things at op temp? Hence, my risk that it may have been closed (or partially) at a critical moment when I was hitting it with anti-freeze.

I'm going to refill from the top. I have my fuel treated, both filters changed, engine fogged, oil changed.

 

[paulswagelock]

You nailed it. Since you do not know if the tstat opens, need to take steps to insure the block gets filled. Can drain everything first then run on the muffs (risk if you do not actually get it drained due to clogged outlet and do not realize it), or can drain everything and manually fill it. 2 gallons drained seems light for a v8 engine.

I will still use the drain then run on muff method. I have a small baby pool and submersible pump setup i use which makes it a 10 minute job for one guy, but the bucket/premade kit would work also. Keep in mind though, it can take ~5 gallons when you drain first on a v8 engine, and draining first is key with either method. If you don't drain first and fill, you will see pink after 2 gallons and think you are done. You likely have a 50/50 mixture at best in there, with a high water concentration in the block.

So lesson learned, but a valuable one. I have found this forum invaluable for gaining knowledge, and i think you now would agree. Good luck and rest easy during the winter...

 

[Someday Lady II]

You nailed it. Since you do not know if the tstat opens, need to take steps to insure the block gets filled...

I disagree. The block will fill even if the thermostat is closed. However, if you did not drain the water prior to filling it with anti freeze it will be diluted and that is where the danger lies.

 

[paulswagelock]

That's what I said.

 

[wish2fish]

My guess is I was probably good, but the points raised in this thread are very well put: Better to be sure then spend $4,000 in the spring.

I was a little surprised it was just 2 gallons. Thoughts?

Asking the obvious since it is implied in this thread - a t-stat must cycle open and closed a bit the keep things at op temp? Hence, my risk that it may have been closed (or partially) at a critical moment when I was hitting it with anti-freeze.

I'm going to refill from the top. I have my fuel treated, both filters changed, engine fogged, oil changed.

$4K seems cheap!

How in the heck did you collect and measure the amount of anti freeze drained? I can't get get anything down into the engine compartment and I would imagine yours is tighter than mine.

Tstat cycles open and closed?? I said it in another thread, tstats are not like light switches. They open slowly and close slowly or may be partially open based on the temperature. I think this will allow to be at least partially open once up to operating temperature.

 

[Dave 205]

$4K seems cheap!

How in the heck did you collect and measure the amount of anti freeze drained? I can't get get anything down into the engine compartment and I would imagine yours is tighter than mine.

I opened the port side into the bilge - messy, drained out the plug to a pan. I was smarter with starboard and a good size plastic beer cup took most of it. I was able to put an empty anti-freeze jug under the front - and right back into the jug it came from. Access in this boat isn't too bad, My easy oil drain hose had broken off the connection to the plug, and I was able to reach under the engine and feed it out the drain.

Removing the stat (and draining the block) and using the bucket is probably fine. But it's still about the same amount of time. Plus, it's not really fair to charge a customer for a new stat every year. If someone wants to do it on their boat, that's fine - I won't hold them back since it's certainly hurting anything. But it would 't be right to do it to every customer.

I don't really want to change my stat every year - these marine ones are kinda expensive, and mine is buried compared to a lot of diagrams I've seen. So, the drain and top fill method is appealing. I don't think mine has ever been changed - very virgin paint on my entire engine. At 5 years should I just do it?

Dave, your avatar shows a boat in a garage. where do you keep it in the winter?

It's in the garage. It doesn't get below freezing in there too much, but the car thermometers report temps down to the teens when it is really bad. Snow almost always melts off the cars.


The "bucket" I used was a Camco gravity tank - $42 bucks. Using a few valves, you hook your garden hose, and the hose from the tank. Once you hit op temp, they have you switch off the tap, and start the tank. The tank ran 5 gal at about 3-4 minutes. Sounds like an extra step should have been to stop the engine, drain, and re-start with the tank.

I don't normally flush after a day on the lake - I don't qualify for the salt, brackish or polluted water Mercury recommeds to flush. So, it probably was nice to get a fresh water flush before going to the anti-freeze.