NEW to SEA RAY products Moving Up (maybe) Express or Dancer

[NotHerDecision]

My neighbor has a 410EC. 2003 model I believe. It’s a good boat and he has Cummins 6CTA’s. The good thing is his boat runs 30knts! The experience is quite different as that boat is 15k lbs lighter, 6ft shorter, 1ft narrower, and about 20” less freeboard. I do like the 410 actually as it offers a lot, however for the price difference you can get a 450/60 with another head, true midcabin, and all the other stuff mentioned above. The bigger boat will inevitably handle bigger seas.

this may not be as important to some but the engine room on the 450/460 is really nice as well and has fairly decent access between the engines.
Hopefully that helps, I have and do run both boats.

 

[fwebster]

Now that I have some seat time with our 410 I’d love to someday pilot a 450 and see the difference.

I assume you have been at the helm of both models (410/450), is the handling difference pretty dramatic between the two?

I think our 410 handles like a dream but the shafts are definitely tucked close to each other and near the keel. I was surprised how well it pivots once I saw how close to centerline the running gear is on the 400/410.

Yes……I've run the 400, the 410, the 460 and I owned and ran my 450 for 23 years. The biggest handling difference between the 400/410 and the 450 is that the 450 isn't a 45' boat. It is really 51'-10" when you consider the pulpit and the lower swim platform, so you have to pay close attention to those 2 areas in close quarter maneuvers because you cannot see either seated at the helm. The other thing I noticed is, because of the shaft spacing, the 450 reacts with more authority when one side is in gear before the other. The 450, like all Sundancers, tends to pivot with the center of rotation well aft of the center of the hull ………like slightly behind the helm seat. They are easy to learn and a dream to handle once you realize the differences.

The other big difference is the ride quality when conditions "get nautical". A 4-5 ft sea in a 410 has you grabbing the throttle to slow down and keep the women-folk from begging for mercy. I didn't slow down in 5-6 ft seas and only needed to slow down a bit when we saw 8ft seas. The 450DA is a beast and will handle whatever you throw at her.

There was a comment about bridge clearance on Sundancers: Sea Ray archives usually show heights above waterline on most models. That dimension on the 450 is 10'-0" to which you would need to add the height of whatever is mounted on the arch. I have a 12'-6' bridge at high tide I sometimes go under and it isn't a problem with a 64 mile Furuno open array if I lower both VHF antennae.

 

[Stee6043]

Wouldn't any of these mentioned boats be too tall when you add in the radar array/dome which 99% of these boats have?

I mentioned two models of DA that were measured to the top of the mast light which is usually above the array. I think our older dancers are shorter than the newer hard tops. That 2010 450DA would be too tall for the OP...

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

THANK YOU ALL FOR THIS VERY VALUABLE FEEDBACK.

The only reason for the bow thruster is the divided bridge with the turn on approach and the turn immediately as one exits he span. The turn has to start before the vessel is clear of the bridge. Additionally, there is a wide body of water to one side. During instances of strong incoming tide, that water has a tendency to push the boat toward the center supports of the span. In that circumstance one must have the throttles up to about 800 RPM or so with a hand on the shifters just in case a novice is coming from the other way as that turn also creates a blind spot.

So what I'm doing is trying to narrow down the choices. The Tiara Open mentioned above is a fine boat, but is geared more toward fishing. The Tiara Sovran would be better suited to our needs. Also looking at the Formula 45 series.

As far as power is concerned, no Volvo, no Detroits, and no PODS.

Will avoid Yanmar LY as well.

Looking like.....
CAT:

• 3196 @ 660
• C-12 @ 715

CUMMINS:

• QSB
• QSC
• 6CTA @ 450
• 480CE - has a history of dropping valves

The only concern with the Vee drives is access for service & repairs.

Can someone please direct me to where I might find all the specifications on those models we have discussed?

BEST !

RWS

 

[copb8tx]

Goto: https://www.searay.com/us/en/owners.html and scroll all the way to the bottom of the page and select the 'Model Archives' button to see if the boat(s) you're interested are there.

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

Goto: https://www.searay.com/us/en/owners.html and scroll all the way to the bottom of the page and select the 'Model Archives' button to see if the boat(s) you're interested are there.

View attachment 111124

This is a very valuable resource.
I went through the spec sheets late 1990's through early 2000's
Unfortunately the specs provided do not include bridge clearance/vertical height.

Frank's helpful post shows the arch on his 1996 450DA at 10' - no hardtop.

That would work for me, however I don't know what other year models also have that same dimension.

Once I get the model possibilities it will be time to look into any known possible stringer issues, structural or cored hull problems.

I do appreciate all this sharing of knowledge.

RWS

 

[fwebster]

The model archives usualy don't show bridge clearance. Get close enough to narrow the possibilities some then check the Owner's Manuals for the model possibilities. If you are intent on ruling out cored hull boats, then don't waste time looking above 34-36 feet. Not all above that point are cored but some are.

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

The model archives usualy don't show bridge clearance. Get close enough to narrow the possibilities some then check the Owner's Manuals for the model possibilities. If you are intent on ruling out cored hull boats, then don't waste time looking above 34-36 feet. Not all above that point are cored but some are.

===========================

THNAKS FRANK

Not ruling out cored hulls, with a proper survey of course.

Just seeking info is there was any years/models to avoid in terms of delamination, or wet stringers, soft decks, water intrusion, limber hole problems, etc

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

YUP

The Owners Manual SUPPLEMENT has a diagram with all the detail - including waterline to arch dimension - - - for a 1999 450 DA it's 10' so with radar & pedestal I'm still good with my bridge issue.

 

[Stee6043]

YUP

The Owners Manual SUPPLEMENT has a diagram with all the detail - including waterline to arch dimension - - - for a 1999 450 DA it's 10' so with radar & pedestal I'm still good with my bridge issue.

Sounds like you would be fine but keep in mind that the mast light on that model will be another 2' above the arch, it has to be higher than the radar by design...

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

Sounds like you would be fine but keep in mind that the mast light on that model will be another 2' above the arch, it has to be higher than the radar by design...

==================================

Just like my current VHF antenna, which I keep lowered till after that bridge, there are work-arounds for the all around light.

Looking like my best choice of reliable power will be the Cummins 6CTA@ 450 horse.

Was looking at a 1997 450DA, but owner disclosed delamination issues above the waterline quoted as a 10k repair.

BEST !

RWS

 

[fwebster]

Sea Ray fixed a lot of larger boats in the late 80's but corrected the questionable construction methods in the early 90's. Generally, with proper maintenance, boats built after about 1995 should be sound.

I owned a 1996 450DA for 24 years and had her surveyed in March, 2021. There was no moisture found in any structure on the boat. I was careful and knew how to maintain the boat and did things like remove and reseal the deck hatches and oval window ports pre-emptively. I know the 450 better than other models, but the 45 has a solid bottom and cored hull sides, transom and swim platform. The hull vents are mounted in th e deck cap, not cut into the hull like most boats and that reduces point of entry for water that could reach the core. Docking lights mounted in the hull are another high risk area for water intrusion. Most of the docking lights were installed after initial delivery by dealers and they were poorly sealed so burying the bow in oncoming seas is the cause of most 450's with wet hulls and docking lights. The other major cause of moisture in a 450DA is when there has been previous physical damage that has been repaired and the hull not properly dried out before sealing up the repair.

 

[SeaNile]

The 1996 450 DA we currently have is by far our favorite boat. Only reason we are selling is to move up to a Sedan Bridge.

Mine has been surveyed 2x within the past 10 months and showed zero moisture anywhere except for on the bolt on swim platform.

For the price and what you get I think the 450DA is by far the best value out there. Mechanical Cats, 24gph total at cruise and everything is simple to work on with how large the bilge is, etc. Actually we wont be sad at all if our 450DA doesn't sell because we love it that much!!

 

[Chief Ed]

I may be biased a little, but check out the 44 Sundancer (previously the 420). We love ours! No bow thruster, and as Frank said haven’t needed one yet. And the QSCs have been awesome so far…

 

[Strypes]

Keep the Trojan International. Or upgrade to something better quality than that. Trust me. I've learned from my mistakes. I don't hate Sea Ray boats, I currently own my 2nd one but it is not an 80's to early 90's Trojan International as far as quality and structural integrity goes. I bought my current Sea Ray less than 2 months ago, it surveyed & sea trialed great, no issues, but I don't love it like my Trojan International or Hatteras or Viking Sportfishes.

That's my opinion. Sea Ray people think Sea Ray is the best, period. I don't think they're junk, but I'd say they're like the Chevy of boats. Decent, affordable, but much nicer products out there.
YMMV

Good luck!

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

Keep the Trojan International. Or upgrade to something better quality than that. Trust me. I've learned from my mistakes. I don't hate Sea Ray boats, I currently own my 2nd one but it is not an 80's to early 90's Trojan International as far as quality and structural integrity goes. I bought my current Sea Ray less than 2 months ago, it surveyed & sea trialed great, no issues, but I don't love it like my Trojan International or Hatteras or Viking Sportfishes.

That's my opinion. Sea Ray people think Sea Ray is the best, period. I don't think they're junk, but I'd say they're like the Chevy of boats. Decent, affordable, but much nicer products out there.
YMMV

Good luck!

Your frankness is appreciated.

The problem with the SeaRay is that of repair/replace/upgrade costs.

While a 450 is a good bit of boat for the money, when the time comes to replace an engine, gear or a number of major components, those items will cost the same on the SeaRay as they would on a Formula or on a Tiara.

My 10 meter shows as new, and with the Yanmars & Northern Lights, the cosmetic refit, flooring, fabrics, cockpit& canvas, floscans, VEEM props, latest Raymarine electronics and GOOD brand windlass, she will be difficult to top.

I rebedded the bowrail 19 years ago and just did it again.

On top of that I gave a spacious 13' beam on a 33' boat. She has a lot going for her.

Doubtful I will find a Searay that comes close of the non-POD drive vintage.

Still, a larger set up with more storage, bigger galley, transom door and a swim platform to accommodate a dink is appealing.

At this moment I am simply evaluating the options, and I do agree with your analogy. The Tiara Sovran continues to be at the top of the list for now, however there is something to be said for a 450DA with Cummins 6CTA @ 450 HP

BEST !

RWS

 

[Pirate Lady]

I cant argue with all that. But cmon man, SR is better than Chevy. I have only owned SR, on 6th. Why, because every Sundancer is laid out the same. From 1984 to 2021. You know what you getting and where everything is.
And more importantly, in the Chesapeake region, you can sell and buy an SR fast. They pretty much the top boat around here.

 

[NotHerDecision]

Most of the 460’s are Cummins powered. Most of the 450 are cat powered. I say both engines have advantages but what steers you always from the 460? I love the storage on the 450 but the looks of the 460 and definitely the hard top.

 

[Strecker25]

Keep the Trojan International. Or upgrade to something better quality than that. Trust me. I've learned from my mistakes. I don't hate Sea Ray boats, I currently own my 2nd one but it is not an 80's to early 90's Trojan International as far as quality and structural integrity goes. I bought my current Sea Ray less than 2 months ago, it surveyed & sea trialed great, no issues, but I don't love it like my Trojan International or Hatteras or Viking Sportfishes.

That's my opinion. Sea Ray people think Sea Ray is the best, period. I don't think they're junk, but I'd say they're like the Chevy of boats. Decent, affordable, but much nicer products out there.
YMMV

Good luck!

I think it makes a huge difference on the model lineup you’re talking about too. My 98 290 was built in Tennessee and if I had to guess sold for 60-80k brand new back then? Lots of shoddy work. Nothing against that plant, just the way it was. Bad glass in places, wood exposed, etc.

my 2002 410 built in Merrit island, no idea what it sold for new but maybe 500k? This thing is a totally different animal in terms of construction. Rock solid everywhere, much better hardware, attention to detail is leaps and bounds above my old boat. Hats off to that factory and whoever built it, they clearly knew what they were doing

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

Most of the 460’s are Cummins powered. Most of the 450 are cat powered. I say both engines have advantages but what steers you always from the 460? I love the storage on the 450 but the looks of the 460 and definitely the hard top.

=========================

I believe the hardtop will be an issue with the 14' bridge clearance to my home dock

RWS