New to boating, looking @ early 310/330/340 DAs - good fit?

[DMage]

Hi -

My name is Derek and I am located in Orlando, FL. I am new to recreational boating and have been in the research / shopping mode for the past several weeks. I do not know anyone who is a recreational boater to bounce any questions or ideas off of. I was hoping you guys on the forum might be able to answer a few questions, and perhaps tell me if I am crazy in the path I am heading down?

As for my boating experience - I have very little on a personal level. I love the water, and am a big cruiser - been on about 30 cruises so far and sure I will be on many more. I've done several day fishing trips on the large pontoon boats out of Tampa, and been on a friend of my wife's family's small boat in the Ft. Lauderdale canals. Thats probably the only time I've been on a personally owned small craft.

My reason for looking to getting into boating is two fold - I am a big 'project/hobby' person, and right now have enjoyed working on cars for the past several years as a hobby. I have a classic car, and had a roadster for daily use. However, my wife is having our first child coming up in July, and both of my cars are two seaters. The daily driver's already been swapped out for a more family friendly Volvo, and the classic car is still sitting in the garage - where its mostly sat since I've finished the project 5 years ago. I use it now only about 4 - 5 times a year, and I assume with it being a two seater I'll use it even less in the future. I'd like to be able to get into something that I'll use more, and that will let the whole family enjoy. And that's really the other reason - being able to take off for a weekend on a trip with the family on a whim, sounds like it would be fun!

So I would be looking to sell the classic car, and use the profits from that to get into boating. That would put me in about a $30k price point and I'd like a bit of room in the boat price for upgrades, initial dock fees, repairs, etc. We live near downtown Orlando, so I can't store a boat at home, and I am also not a truck person. That would mean I would want to keep it at a marina, either wet or dry docked. For boats, I originally started poking around eBay to see what that sort of price would get me, and I've been leaning towards a late '80s / early 90's Sea Ray 310 / 340 / 330 with the 310 being my favorite layout so far, and since most include A/C & a generator (what I've deemed in my head are important to me, from no experience and just reading so far - so unsure how in real use these are needed or practical). I've been around the forum lurking for the last few weeks reading as much as possible, and everywhere else that has boating info for that matter. I spent yesterday working through the BoatUS safety/information course which was immensely helpful. Even downloaded the owners manuals for the boat models I am looking at and read through them. But, I am sure there is *still* a ton to learn.


So, that's about as brief of a summary as I can make it, and leads me into my questions -

- Does my plan seem rational or flawed? Is there some critical piece I've overlooked?

- Is a 35' boat going to be too much for a new boater? I like it because we can grow into it as a family and it leaves me room to upgrade it and make it ours in the future, but if its crazy to think I can jump into something that large I can look for a smaller stepping stone boat - like a Sea Ray 268? Do you guys have other recommendations in my price point that I have perhaps overlooked? I like the 310 for its mid cabin berth that converts into the u-shaped couch during the day, and having a dedicated second sleeping area would be critical.

- Is it crazy to be looking at a 22 - 25 year old boat? From what I've read it seems to be the hours on the engine dictate when a boat would need the most work, but I assume there must be some sort of life expectancy on the hull that I have not found yet? Or is it that with regular maintenance and care they would just last forever? I am more than up for doing my own maintenance, and have rebuilt engines before as well.

- Would you recommend wet or dry docking? I was reading several dock websites in my area and they mentioned they could float a boat on short notice - but they also charge less for the dry docking. To me as a car guy I would never want my car sitting out in the rain, so I'd think that having it on land out of the water when not in use would extend the life of any underwater parts and prevent any possible damage by letting it sit (which is why I can't grasp why dry docking with free in/out movement of the boat is less expensive)?

- Do marinas usually have areas for owners to work on their boats? I'm thinking if a boats wet docked it isn't much of an issue unless your doing any maintenance under the water line, but if its dry docked is it common for them to have a place to pull a boat down and put it on a stand for say weekend work by an owner?

Appreciate any help or insight you guys can provide! Thanks!

 

[tdschafer]

Dmage,
Wow, where to start? Well let me start off with a warm CSR welcome!! You have come to the right place for advice and it will be very varied. You will need to sift through it and see what strikes you as appropriate for your situation.
Your plan seems sound to me. When I was younger I used to ride motorcycles and golf alot. As I got more into boating the other hobbies went to the wayside as they were in direct competition with my boating time. To your point, recreational boating is an excellent family activity. My kids ask all winter about getting on the boat and heading to the beach so you're on the right track there.

What size boat to get? That is a tough one. Rule of thumb has always been to buy as big as the budget allows and you will always grow into it. Boaters tend to get "footitis" which means they are always looking to move up a few feet in size as they acclimate to their current boat. You being a total newbie may not necessarily follow that rule. There are boating classes available as well as captains for hire that can teach you how to pilot whatever boat you purchase, so don't let the size scare you. All of the boats you mentioned are great and all Sundancers have a convertable mid-cabin that will accomodate additional sleeping people! The dinettes also convert to a bed so there is plenty of growth in these boats.

I agree with wanting the a/c and generator. Those come in handy and if you find that you want them later, they are very costly upgrades. It's better to get them in the first place. You will especially appreciate the A/C down in Florida!!

The age of the boat is not so important as the maintenance of it is. This goes for hulls and motors alike. There is blistering of the bottom which MAY be a concern but also may not. If there is blistering the bottom will need to be sanded and barrier coated but I digress, cross that bridge when you get to it. I would strongly recommend that you get a survey since you are new so they can help point out what the boat will require.

I have always been a proponent of wet slipping a boat. Where I am located I may shoot down to the boat on a whim and go across to the beach for a cocktail. If I was dry docked I would not be able to do this once the staff has left for the day. Another thing we like to do is go down to the marina on say a thursday nioght after work. We load up for the weekend then eat dinner and sleep in the marina. We socialize with other boaters down there too. Then we shoot over to the beach first thing the next morning. No packing up and running down in the morning which, as you will see, becomes more complex and time consuming with children.

As far as marinas allowing people to work on their boats each marina has different rules on this. That should be a question you pose when shopping around.

That seems to be all I can think of for now. Good luck on your search and keep any questions that you have along the way coming!!

 

[fwebster]

With your location, I'd buy a 30+ ft inboard boat and stay well clear of i/o power. Merritt Island/Canaveral/Cocoa Beach are all very close and offer a lot for a growing family. There are marinas that allow and even encourage do-it yourselfers. Keeping a boat in the water is a bad plan in that area for i/o power due to salt water, but with inboards, all the mechanicals are inside the boat and easy to get to and an occasional bottom job is about all the under water maintenance you'll need with inboards.

Having owned one, I would avoid pre-1990 Sea Rays because of the plywood in the cockpit. A better choice is the early 90's 310/330DA or EC. If the money works, one of the better boats Sea Ray has produced is the late 90's 330DA. All are great boats with inboards or v-drives and the engine packages are simple straightforward carbureted GM V-8's....either 454's or 350's.

A boat is designed to be supported on its own bottom in the water. It is generally better for the boat to be in a wet slip as opposed to dry stacking. For me the problem with dry stacking is that you have to depend upon someone else to move the boat to a storage rack when you want to do anything to it or use it. I work on weekends, nights, holidays, etc and there are times when I couldn't do t hat if my boat were dry stacked. Dry stacking nearly always brings along with it some risk of damage to the boat as forklift drivers try to slide the boat onto the bunks or forks, so expect some scratches and black marks. Boats, Sea Rays in particular, are designed to be stored outside....these are not show cars...but they also require a lot of maintenance to keep them looking good primarily because of the sun, but also the salt air.

Good luck and enjoy learning and shopping............

 

[Turtlesboat]

Also keep in mind while shopping that everything costs money on a boat. So if see the fridge is a little worse for wear, those suckers are expensive. Canvas could be changed? Holy cow hold on to your wallet. On a 20 year old boat, it's going to need stuff, so keep that in mind and price those items so you can offer accordingly.

 

[Alegria]

Hi Derek,

Welcome to the forum. You are located in such a wonderful location for boating. I don't think you are crazy. I think you just need to get some reality based advice and get your questions answered. There is a wealth of knowledge and friendly folks here to help so ask your questions.

Boating like many hobbies is an expensive proposition! The age of boat you are looking at will need normal wear and tear maintenance done. Since you have engine experience the models you are looking at are usually 454 carbs so you most likely know the basics. Some differences on the exhaust on boats but nothing complicated at all.

I started with a 90 280 from never owning a boat before and learned. We are on our second a 97 330. Honestly the 330 is much easier to operate with the inboards then our 280 with IO's. The space on the 330 is nice. We are a family of 5 and we usually spend at least one whole week on the boat and never get on each others nerves.

You will have to factor in slip fee, haul out, insurance, etc...

The things you have to look at on those models are anywhere they had to drill a hole to mount or install anything. As the decks are cored with wood to save on weight and over time the sealant breaks down and you might get water intrusion into the core causing rot. So you have to re-seat the rails, deck fittings etc.

Congrats on your new addition. There is no better family time activity then boating!! Our kids love it. Thankfully my wife enjoys it too. She was able to overlook the dull gelcoat on our boat and found a very clean and inviting layout with A/C, dinette, and vacu flush head. All things our old 280 did not have and that makes staying on the boat so much more enjoyable. We added A/C to the 280 for around $3200 and it was the best addition to the that boat.

Enjoy shopping! I encourage you to get some lessons from a professional to help you with operating, docking. I encourage you to take a boating safety course and seamanship. You can pick up Chapman's and it's excellent reading on every thing related to boats.

Take Care.

 

[WDCboater]

Welcome to CSR. You sound like you are doing your due diligence, which is good.

I can give yu my 2-cents as a relatively new boater, compared to many on this forum. In 2010 I bought a 2010 240 Sundancer. It was my first boat and I thought it would be a good entry level cruiser and teach me what I really like and don't like in a boat. With that said, I will be trading up to a new 350/370 this year due to a laundry list of needs I have developed.

Before I explain, I should mention most of my boating is on the Potomac River in DC, down the river to the Chesapeake and with the larger boat, probably to VA Beach and down the coast. I have boated down in FT Lauderdale and Naples, but never owned a boat there.

If you are going to use the boat for more than just day cruises go 30+. You will appreciate the space, generator, etc. I quickly realized my 25' boat was too small for medium to large groups and no generator was a huge drawback.

When it comes to age, I have only purchased new. Here's my thought... A boat has a lot of systems and moving parts. AC, generator, water system, batteries, engines, bilge pumps, etc. Buying new allows you to know the boat from the beginning. In the first year of owning my boat my dealer has done more than 3k in warranty repairs. My transducer was DOA. Having the warranty and extended warranty has been piece of mind. Plus I have full maintenance records. With that said, unless you get a good deal on the purchase, you will take a big hit on a new boat in terms of depreciation. Buying a couple years old will get you a good price and possibly a boat still under warranty. Sea Rays extended warranty goes out 7 years and is transferable.

Just one last thing to keep in mind, the bigger the boat, the more expensive the slip, maintenance, hauling, etc.

 

[tdschafer]

Ryan,
As per his first post the OP is working with a budget of around $30K. He won't be able to buy much boat in the new range and especially nothing 30+ feet. I believe that is why he is looking older and asking our advice.

 

[Ka1oxd]

Ok, I have owned brand new boats and I have bought used. I would never buy a new boat again. There is something to be said about sweat equity and the finished project. Three years ago, I went from an 1981 260 Sea Ray Sundancer to a 1988 340 Sea Ray Sundancer. I actually enjoy working on the boat and have the ability to work on the boat for now. This is my first twin engine and first inboards. I do not know why I waited so long. I am turning 58 next week and have owned a boat since I was 23. So i did gain knowledge on keeping a boat up. This was not my first project boat, but was in much better shape than some of my previous project boats. I, like many others on this site do not mind the elbow grease need to restore boats. That is much cheaper in the long run, but you have to know your limitations and know where to reach out. This site is a good place for the support.

On the size of the boat, go as big as you can afford. But make sure you have a survey done before you buy. My current boat I took the whole family to go look at. The Admiral, 3 kids, and a yellow lab. We drove 2.5 hours to get there and I spent about 3 hours going over the boat. I took my camera and note pad to write up things I found. I used this information to place an offer on the boat. I also shopped around for Surveyor that was family with the late 80's 340 Sundancers. I also did lots of research before the survey and sea trials. While on the initial offer, I did not get the price I was looking for, I did know some of the common issues for that year and model. This way I could chat with the surveyor on items he was reviewing.

In the end, I got the boat for what I wanted to pay. The choice was either have the "Must Repair Before Entering Service" items repaired by the current owner, or take that cost off the boat. First year I dumped $4,200 in the boat. The biggest price was the swim platform, $2,700. Good investment. The rest was mechanical, tools, and bottom paint. I needed to have both cutlass to be replaced. The tool cost me $400, but to have someone do it, would had been about $1,500 a drive shaft. Now it only cost me about $65 for the cutlass and my time, about 2 hours of labor each shaft (change every 200 to 300 hours). Since then about $1,100 a year. After this year, the costs will drop. It will be only normal maintenance. I did start with some of the interior this winter, but over the next few years I will finish it a little at a time.

The family loves the boat and we spend much of the summer on the boat.

Now, whatever you decide on which boat, try to make friends at the marina that you are going to be keeping it. Boaters love to help one another, it must be to something in the water. I used to trailer a boat but it is so much nicer to just head the the marina (25 minute drive) and walk on the boat dry. Working on the boat in the winter is the downside, it 25 minutes away. Not like when I trailer, when I had a few minutes to do something< I would just go outside and work on it. Now I plan and work the whole day(s). The marina I am at is what I call a blue collar marina. Almost everyone works on their own boat when it is on the hard. Each marina is different, so find out where you are going to keep the boat and their rules. One of my buddies cannot even put his own cover over the boat, it has to be shrink wrapped by the marina.

As far a size, if you make friends at the marina and afraid to take it out for the first couple of times, one of them will go for a ride to keep you out of trouble. You will grow into the boat and your experience will pick up quick. Just keep a cool head and take you time learning.

 

[AMFM3]

Welcome to CSR! Congrats on venturing into a Bobbie and lifestyle that can't be beat.

I'd like to echo the thought previous to my post.

Find the marina you like and befriend the people who work there. I'm on my 3rd boat in 9 years. First one, too small. 2nd one we now have for sale after 8 years as we just took possession of our dream Sea Ray 370 Sundancer.

This all being said, we've been in the same marina since 2005. It's nothing fancy, but clean with great mechanics and dock people. I don't winterized or summarize my boat, I leave that to people much more mechanically inclined than I. But I do my own small projects when I can.

Because I know these people and they know me, I always get lots of advice and free help.

Buy the biggest you can afford because in 2 years it will be too small! Have fun, you're gonna love this.




---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?lryedu

 

[Gofirstclass]

Derek, add my welcome to CSR, and as you've seen it is a great place to learn from our experience and mistakes.

I have always said two things when it comes to buying boats....Rule #1 is BUY YOUR SECOND BOAT FIRST, and Rule #2 is THE WRONG BOAT AT THE BEST PRICE IN THE WORLD IS STILL THE WRONG BOAT.

That being said, I think you're headed in the right direction. I moved from a 20' bowrider I owned for 11 years up to a 1995 330 Sundancer that I also kept for 11 years, then moved up to the boat I have now.

You've already done a lot of your homework and found the style and approximate size you want. Don't settle for less than that or you'll do like WDCBoater did....buy a boat then get ready to trade it in a year or two. That is VERY expensive because boats don't go UP in value, they go down. When you picture your family now you see two adults and one little bugger. But project that a few years into the future and you'll have the two of you and probably some additional little buggers except they won't be little any more. Teenagers might be 5'-6' tall, but they're ALL LEGS, and they'll want to bring their friends along on the boat. So don't buy a boat that will be too small.

My best piece of advice....Go back and read FWebster's post (#3) again. Frank is one of the most knowledgeable people on here so pay close attention to what he says.

Last but not least, take your time, don't rush out and buy a boat just to get on the water. Make sure it's a boat that will fit your needs because (see Rule #2 above) .

 

[DMage]

First off thanks everyone SO MUCH for such a warm welcome and responses! I've been on several car message boards for years and this board has the best welcome for beginners out of any of them!

So much to go through from these posts - let me start with general items - I actually already contacted a surveyor via email prior to posting this yesterday and have been waiting on a response. I would definitely get it surveyed as I don't have the slightest clue what to look for. The surveyor also offers an orientation service so I would most likely take him up on that as well and get a feeler for the boat during the sea trial. And would opt for an oil analysis as well on the engine as I've seen the results when I've had it done on my cars and they are impressive what they can tell you.

Several of you brought up good points for pro-wet slipping - I never even thought about the ability to go down early and board the night before, or about marina hours, but it makes complete sense! And, I wouldn't want to take great care of the boat in the water for a forklift driver to damage it on shore.

I would avoid pre-1990 Sea Rays because of the plywood in the cockpit.

Could you go more into detail on this as I haven't come across that being mentioned yet in my poking about?

I accept that I'll be spending several thousand a year to maintain the boat as well as spending money on upgrading it. I'd rather buy within my budget as to not have to finance and then use my hobby funds over the course of the year towards projects. I've seen several threads on the site going over re-upholstering as well as replacing carpet with the wood-like flooring - two things I think I would definitely tackle at some point, along with replacing the headliner. Transfer as much of my past classic car refurb experience over as I can! My aim is to get a boat that is as mechanically sound as possible first, and cosmetically I can work on gradually. The 1991/92 310s I am looking at right now both have had engines rebuilt and have about 400 hours on them, so my hope is that a surveyor wouldn't find anything critically wrong that I couldn't tackle up front. I assume like anything a tuneup of plugs / fuel filter / oil change would be ideal right at the get go to ensure the easy items are out of the way?

 

[fwebster]

Derek,

First here's your answer on the plywood in the cockpit question: As Sea Ray began to build bigger boats in the 80's, a lot of the construction techniques they were successful with in smaller lake boats didn't work out so well on boats that were subject to sea conditions, staying in the water all the time and high humidity/warm weather coastal areas. The cockpit interiors, from the deck cap to the cockpit floor were made from plywood coated with a Mica surface. The edges of the plywood were sealed with only a coat of paint. Edge joints between panels were covered with teak strips without much attention to caulking or sealing. In the mid-80's some boats even had seat bases made this way, but they was changed to a molded fiberglass structure in the late 80's. The plywood will eventually de-laminate along the edges and it can be a pretty expensive and time consuming job to have the interior panels replaced. On the other hand, if one wants a project and can do almost cabiner quality wood working, replacing the interior panels with King Starboard can be a rewarding experience since a boat with rotting cockpit panels can usually be bought cheap.

There are other construction techniques that were improved during the formative years in the late 80's. Some of them can be real traps for the unsuspecting buyers. For example, the limber holes on older boats were lined with PVC pipe held in place by silicone. The silicone seal breaks down after a while and bilge water can leak into the stringer system around the PVC liner. If they have been repaired, you will see fiberglass tubes glassed into the limber holes. Any boat that has or did have pvc liners in t he limber holes are subject to stringer rot Rotted stringers can turn a $30K boat in to a $75,000 hole in the water real quick.

In summary, for a new and inexperienced buyer, just avoiding exposure to some of the traps set by early construction techniques is a safer approach.



It is also that you understand the survey process. Hiring a surveyor is hiring an employee to do stuff you do not have the experience or training to do. They are only as good as their training, experience, and common sense allows them to be. Just because they are members of an organization does not necessarily make them competent or reasonable. The standard of practice in marine surveying is one of "best efforts". That means that you are hiring a guy to look at your prospective new boat and he is limited to only providing you with his best efforts. He does and cannot warrant that the boat is free of defects, only that he provided his best effort to examine the boat for you. Further, most marine surveyors will do no disassembly, remove no covers, use no tools except maybe a hammer and flashlight, they will not evaluate electronics except to perhaps power them up, and they will not survey any of the mechanicals....i.e. engines transmissions, generator,......and will only test a/c and refrigeration for operation, not condition.
My point is to be careful and only select a surveyor after you meet them in person and interview them as to their experience and training, their experience on Sea Ray boats in the size range you are interested in and discover what types of reporting they do.

I'll skip ahead here and tell you to require your surveyor to give you a written C&V (condition and value) survey report when he finished. No insurance company is going to insure a 15 to 20 year old boat without a marine survey as a part of their underwriting. Asking for a C&V survey from the outset may save you an additional charge of having the surveyor come back and update his report.

Hope that helps..............

 

[northern]

In 2000 I purchased a 28 footer with a 10.5 beam with upper and lower helms. We boat on the west coast north of Vancouver. We took the boat as far north as the end of Vancouver Island. The head room was 6' 2" I am 6' 4". The height difference was too much. At the end of a week my back hurt. We paid 25,000 for the boat and spent 20,000 on up grades, in 2007 or 2008 we sold it for 10,000. With the new boat we have I have only changed and added items that are required. Based on what I have seen you will never get back any additions you put on the boat. As to stern drive to inboards. I feel the inboards cost less to run but from what I have read they are 30%less efficent. If we could go back to the non boat time I feel it would have been better to rent the first year. A different boat each week for the 3 weeks we boated.
After you rent you will know what you want. You may find you need a generator in the boat. If you buy a boat without one it could cost you 10,000 to have one put in. If you want 120 volt outlets on the hook an inverter with batteries can cost 5,000. If you want fresh water on the hook a watermaker will cost 7,000.
Figure out what you want then look for the correct boat. A worn out interior is a good do it your self project but adding big ticket items can cost.