New stereo sounds great, I think it could be better though

[teekster]

Setting an EQ to resemble a "V" is usually just a way to compensate for what is crappy system. Unfortunately, all you are doing is sending more dirty signals to your amp. Try to avoid turning the bass or treble up, or using a bass boost feature. If you are using those, your system is telling you that you want better speakers/ amplification.

 

[mrsrobinson]

I am having a tough time understanding the description of your setup. Can you use MS Paint and make a quick diagram?

I think I found another problem in your setup...

Your 2nd amp should not be running off the factory amp. This should run off the new head unit. I checked the specs on the head unit and it has 3 sets of pre-outs (sub (non-fading), front, rear). The new amp needs to be wired to the sub pre-out from the new head unit. I'm pretty sure this is why your sub isn't receiving enough power.

Doug

Edit: This is how I would wire it.

This is exactly how I wired it with one difference. Instead of 4 speaker wires coming off the factory amp to the 4 exterior 6.5s there are 2, bridged. I bridged 4 channels to 2. It's going to be a challenge to wire 2 more sets of speaker wires such that each of the 4 get's it's own set off the amp so I decided to use the existing parallel on the 4 6.5s.

These sound great. How can this be affecting the sub?

 

[douglee25]

Setting an EQ to resemble a "V" is usually just a way to compensate for what is crappy system. Unfortunately, all you are doing is sending more dirty signals to your amp. Try to avoid turning the bass or treble up, or using a bass boost feature. If you are using those, your system is telling you that you want better speakers/ amplification.

Totally disagree with you. Reread my post and you'll notice how I specified that the bass boost should be set around zero. By setting the EQ to resemble something close to a 'V', I have simplified a starting point so we could diagnose what the issue at hand is.

Doug

 

[Pirate]

Greg- provided your factory spkr wiring is intact and the ends are not corroded, there is no need to replace it. The likely source of your troubles is in the setting of the crossovers. Your coaxial spkrs will benefit by using the HPF, but only if the settings are correct. Your sub amp should have the LPF (Low pass filter) set and the crossover and gain will have to be set to complement the coaxial settings. It can take a while to get the settings right.

The factory Clarion amp is a WEAK WEAK WEAK link. They are unreliable and their performance is lackluster. Even a low to mid-range 4 channel amp is a HUGE improvement over the Clarion. Try a Bazooka MAA465. It's a cheap amp with pretty good performance and the x-over settings are easy to use.

 

[mrsrobinson]

Greg- provided your factory spkr wiring is intact and the ends are not corroded, there is no need to replace it. The likely source of your troubles is in the setting of the crossovers. Your coaxial spkrs will benefit by using the HPF, but only if the settings are correct. Your sub amp should have the LPF (Low pass filter) set and the crossover and gain will have to be set to complement the coaxial settings. It can take a while to get the settings right.

The factory Clarion amp is a WEAK WEAK WEAK link. They are unreliable and their performance is lackluster. Even a low to mid-range 4 channel amp is a HUGE improvement over the Clarion. Try a Bazooka MAA465. It's a cheap amp with pretty good performance and the x-over settings are easy to use.

Cross this, over that..all new to me:huh:

I looked on the back of the sub amp yesterday. There is a gain dial and one switch I can flip left or right....I forget what it said on it, but that's it, nothing else on that amp.

I read some stuff on free-air subs and it appears they are known for lacking bass/lows..so perhaps that's a weak link too? I just bought what looked like a good 10" marine sub from Crutchfield, not paying any attention to free air or anything else. It's pretty, looks nice, has good weight, feels solid, just not vibrating a lot.

 

[Pirate]

GReg-

Each speaker type / size can only handle frequencies within a specific range. A subwoofer does bass very well, but it is really bad at highs. A tweeter will do highs very well, but cannot handle bass at all. The mid range spkrs fall into... the mid frequencies. A crossover (which is built into MOST of today's amps) filters those frequencies, sending only the correct signal to the right speakers. Your coaxial spkrs are good for mids and highs only. So, we want to engage a HPF (High pass filter) so that the coaxial spkrs are not being asked to produce bass frequencies. Once you switch the crossover to HPF, there are 2 additional settings, the frequency cut off point and the gain (volume) controls. You will want to start the coaxial spkrs around 75-80Hz and then adjust by ear. Turn the sub OFF. Ignore the absence of bass frequencies. After you've adjusted the HPF x-over, turn the gain down and the volume on the head unit all the way up. Now, adjust the gain on the amp to the loudest you will listen or the loudest the speakers can stand without distorting. Turn the volume down. Now, unplug the RCA's feeding the coaxials and connect the subwoofer. Do the same for the LPF xover. Play the sub up to around 80-85Hz so that you have some overlap with the coaxials. If your sub amp does not have a crossover, you will need an amp with a crossover or you will need to get an external crossover.

The free air subs do not have the punch that a sealed sub will have, but, depending on the acoustics of the installation (which are beyond our control), they can sound pretty good.

 

[douglee25]

This is exactly how I wired it with one difference. Instead of 4 speaker wires coming off the factory amp to the 4 exterior 6.5s there are 2, bridged. I bridged 4 channels to 2. It's going to be a challenge to wire 2 more sets of speaker wires such that each of the 4 get's it's own set off the amp so I decided to use the existing parallel on the 4 6.5s.

These sound great. How can this be affecting the sub?

If the 6.5's sound great, leave them alone. Ideally, it would sound the best if you were to wire it using the diagram, but only use it as a guide.

When I read your previous post, "I added a 2nd amp for the sub, taking it off the factory amp" this sounded like your 2nd amp was somehow ran off your factory amp. Rereading this now it sounds as if you took the sub and instead of driving it off the factory amp, you're driving it off the 2nd amp, correct? If indeed the head unit is driving the sub amp, you are OK.

I read some of the manual for the head unit again....

1. Set your EQ to 'Natural' as a starting point. If you chose to set your EQ to custom where you can tailor the settings (to the 'V' for example) as you chose, the levels go from -6 to +6. See pages 23, 24, 25.

2. Set your gain on the sub amp to 50 - 70% of max.

3. It sounds like it's possible that you don't have the sub turned on from the head unit. Read pages 25 under 'Using Subwoofer Output'. It says SW Setting 1 is the 'on/off' mode. Set that to 'normal phase'. SW Setting 2 is for adjusting the cut off frequencies (50, 63, 80 hz, etc). Those ranges go can be set from -24 to +6. Experiment to see what sounds good.

If the amp is too small or you have selected an incorrect sub, you should still have some decent sound coming out of it. If not, we need to look at some other avenues.

Doug

 

[skibum]

2. Set your gain on the sub amp to 50 - 70% of max.

3. It sounds like it's possible that you don't have the sub turned on from the head unit. Read pages 25 under 'Using Subwoofer Output'. It says SW Setting 1 is the 'on/off' mode. Set that to 'normal phase'. SW Setting 2 is for adjusting the cut off frequencies (50, 63, 80 hz, etc). Those ranges go can be set from -24 to +6. Experiment to see what sounds good.

Doug

I've played around with subs quite a bit in my home theater, so I'll throw in my 2 cents on this one.

Doug is spot on for item #2, 70% max on the sub gain to start off- until you get a handle on things.

In item #3, he mentions the SW setting for phase. He has you set it to "normal", which is fine. However, it is not entirely unusual to have to change the phase on the sub to get a good "mix" with the sounds coming out of the other speakers. Without a lot of technical mumbo jumbo, it is related to the length of the lower frequencies. They are very long sound waves, and the position of the sub in relation to the position of the other speakers can cause them to either add to, or subtract from the total amount of bass frequencies that you hear. You MAY want to play around with the phase setting every now and then while you are testing things just in case you happen to get everything else correct. It is possible to have a lot of cancellation going on if the sub is out of phase. Many subs simply have 2 settings, "normal" and "180 degrees" (out of phase from the input signal). Other subs are continuously variable. Just keep in mind that you can get everything else right, and have still have bass problems if the phase is set wrong.

As to adjusting the cutoff frequencies, the best way to use them is to get the response curve charts or diagrams for your main speakers and your sub. Your main speaker charts will tell you the frequencies where they start to lose effectiveness on the low end (usually in the 60 to 120Hz range), and the ones for the sub will show you where it loses effectiveness in the higher end (usually in the 50 to 150Hz range). Often, you will find a "gap" between the two. An example would be that the sub shows drop offs of -1dB at 90Hz, -2dB at 95Hz, and -3dB at 100Hz, and the main speakers would show drop offs of something like -1 dB at 90Hz, -2dB at 85Hz, and -3dB at 80Hz. Here, the thing to look for is a range that might need to be "boosted" in order to have that frequency range come out of both the sub and the main speakers at the proper levels. That way, when the sounds from all of the speakers get added together, you have the proper amount of sound in that range. In the example above, the main speakers start to drop off at 90Hz with a loss of -1dB, and the sub also shows a drop off of -1dB at 90Hz. This combination of speakers will have a "hole" at 90Hz of -2dB, and the 90Hz range in the head unit settings should be set to +2dB to compensate for the speakers. The main speakers show a -2dB drop at 85Hz, and the sub is showing no loss. This means that the 85Hz range may beed to be lowered a bit to prevent getting too much volume at that frequency. Too much of any one bass frequency can make that frequency sound "boomy" when it plays. Its hard to describe, but it just sounds bad. You also might need to reduce some of the frequencies between 90 and 100HZ because both the sub, and the mains can reproduce those frequencies. For the most part, you only need to play with the frequencies where the 2 charts overlap.

I hope this helps.
Michael

 

[mrsrobinson]

If the 6.5's sound great, leave them alone. Ideally, it would sound the best if you were to wire it using the diagram, but only use it as a guide.

When I read your previous post, "I added a 2nd amp for the sub, taking it off the factory amp" this sounded like your 2nd amp was somehow ran off your factory amp. Rereading this now it sounds as if you took the sub and instead of driving it off the factory amp, you're driving it off the 2nd amp, correct? If indeed the head unit is driving the sub amp, you are OK.

I read some of the manual for the head unit again....

1. Set your EQ to 'Natural' as a starting point. If you chose to set your EQ to custom where you can tailor the settings (to the 'V' for example) as you chose, the levels go from -6 to +6. See pages 23, 24, 25.

2. Set your gain on the sub amp to 50 - 70% of max.

3. It sounds like it's possible that you don't have the sub turned on from the head unit. Read pages 25 under 'Using Subwoofer Output'. It says SW Setting 1 is the 'on/off' mode. Set that to 'normal phase'. SW Setting 2 is for adjusting the cut off frequencies (50, 63, 80 hz, etc). Those ranges go can be set from -24 to +6. Experiment to see what sounds good.

If the amp is too small or you have selected an incorrect sub, you should still have some decent sound coming out of it. If not, we need to look at some other avenues.

Doug

The head unit is driving the sub amp directly. RCAs for the sub from the head unit/receiver go directly to the new Pioneer amp dedicated for the subwoofer. From the Pioneer amp I bridged 2 channels to one.

1) I played with these settings this weekend. I do not have
it set to Custom..I think it's set to Powerful, which sounded the best.

2) I turned it to "Normal" on the back of the amp if I recall correctly.

3)Setting 1 is set to On. I played around with Setting 2 this weekend also and it never made a difference, even at high volumes.

Neither amp has a HPF that I can see. remember, the 4 channel Clarion 120 watt amp is factory, 1995.

The new Pioneer Head Unit does have a HPF. As soon as I turn this On we loss all bass. I did not check to see if ths subwoofer was vibrating, but it was a clear indication to me the majority of our bass is coming from the 6.5s.

 

[Skuza]

Here is how our factory setup is wired. The four cockpit 6.5's are paralleled off of channels 1 & 2. The sub is bridged off of channels 4 & 5. Amp is stock 160w clarion.
When I looked up a new higher powered amp on Clarion's website they showed a wiring diagram for our setup and it was not the same. They had the four speakers each on their own seperate channel and the sub bridged off of two of the 6.5 channels. Strange? If I upgraded the amp I would wire it the same way and hope it sounded ok.
I have a question though. Where do you run the new power supply wire if you increase the size of the wire? Is there a large junction box somewhere that you could tie into or do you have to run it all the way to the batteries? Our factory amp has two seperate power and ground wires that look like 10 guage? I don't understand that either!

 

[mrsrobinson]

DougLee25 was kind enough to meet me at our boat today (on his way from NJ to NC) and provide his audio expertise. He fiddled with the Head Unit audio adjustments, which helped a little, and then it dawned on him...gain. The gain on the 4 6.5s amp and the sub's amp were both set to max. He turned down the gain on the 6.5s amp to about 60% and bingo, more bass from the sub at higher volumes. The system sounds great now.

Skibum, Doug set the sub from Normal to Rev and that helped too.

+1 for Douglee25, you rock man....even though you own a Larson. Thanks again!

 

[douglee25]

DougLee25 was kind enough to meet me at our boat today (on his way from NJ to NC) and provide his audio expertise. He fiddled with the Head Unit audio adjustments, which helped a little, and then it dawned on him...gain. The gain on the 4 6.5s amp and the sub's amp were both set to max. He turned down the gain on the 6.5s amp to about 60% and bingo, more bass from the sub at higher volumes. The system sounds great now.

Skibum, Doug set the sub from Normal to Rev and that helped too.

+1 for Douglee25, you rock man....even though you own a Larson. Thanks again!

Glad I could help Greg! Thanks for the beer as well!

See, not all Larson owners are jerks. :smt001

For all who may have a similar problem at some point, it was a combination of several items.

1. The EQ was out of adjustment, especially on the low channel. We increased the level there. We also optimized the cut off frequency for the sub output.
2. The sub output level was turned down. We increased that as well.
3. The sub amp did not have the low pass filter switched on.
4. The amp for the 6.5's did not have the high pass filter switched on.
5. We decreased the gain from 100% to 75% on the sub amp.
6. We decreased the gain from 100% to 60% on the 6.5 amp.
7. The sub phase was out, so we reversed that as well.

In the end, the system woke up the marina! :grin:

Doug

 

[Skuza]

Douglee, wish you were in my area. I have no idea when it comes to frequency and cutoffs and all that junk. I just adjust by ear and hope I did it right!
A question then: For the 6.5s should I use the high pass filter on the amp even though they have a crossover box that was supplied with them for the tweeters? They are not seperate component tweeters but mounted on the 6.5 and still came with the crossover.
Is there a certain frequency I should tune the sub and 6.5s to?
Also there is a button on the amp for range I think, 1x and 10x? One setting of that button I notice way more bass and mids coming out of the 6.5s.

 

[douglee25]

Douglee, wish you were in my area. I have no idea when it comes to frequency and cutoffs and all that junk. I just adjust by ear and hope I did it right!
A question then: For the 6.5s should I use the high pass filter on the amp even though they have a crossover box that was supplied with them for the tweeters? They are not seperate component tweeters but mounted on the 6.5 and still came with the crossover.
Is there a certain frequency I should tune the sub and 6.5s to?
Also there is a button on the amp for range I think, 1x and 10x? One setting of that button I notice way more bass and mids coming out of the 6.5s.

Are you running one amp for the sub and one amp for the 6.5's?

If it's one amp, there should be two crossovers... one for the sub channel and one for the 6.5's. The sub should have the low pass filter on and usually one would turn the high pass filter on for the 6.5's. Personally, I would try the crossover box solely first and see how it sounds without the high pass filter on the amp. Reason being that each one may cut off frequencies at different levels. I would think that the factory supplied crossover boxes would be better matched to the speakers vs. the amp, but you can only figure it out by looking at frequency diagrams (which you probably don't have access to - I couldn't find much info even on Greg's setup).

A good starting point to start the sub cut off would be anywhere from say 65-90 Hz. Shoot for 80 Hz?

Concerning the 1x and 10x, that is probably their way of setting gain. 10x may be like 100% and 1x like 10%. Just a guess.

Doug

 

[Skuza]

One amp, http://clarion.com/us/en/products/2008/marine/amplifiers/APX490M/us-en-product-pf_1172385081164.html

Channel frequency are adjusted in pairs, 1&2 have their own gain and crossover along with a bass boost adjustment. Channels 3&4 gain and frequency. The button I think adjusts how frequency is adjusted, for instance by a factor of 10 or 100. I'm totally guessing on that.

 

[Loneranger]

http://www.bcae1.com/

Look on the above web page under the installation primer page found by scrolling down the choices on the right side. It will help explain some concepts such as crossover etc. The site has almost too much information but very helpful.

DC audio systems are the same weather they are in a boat or a car. Same electricity driving the system, same poor acoustic environment, etc. There is just more potential moisture and electrical failures are likely more common on the water.

I would not lose too much sleep over a free air sub. Yes sealed boxes are nice but you can get all the deep bass you need from a well designed free air set up.

I will work on getting my sig set up. I now have a picture of the searay so I can be official.

John

 

[mrsrobinson]

New system is performing well...accept when running for 30+ minutes a high volumes. It's flipping the breaker. Amp are hot so I put a fan on them. This does not seem to help.

 

[douglee25]

New system is performing well...accept when running for 30+ minutes a high volumes. It's flipping the breaker. Amp are hot so I put a fan on them. This does not seem to help.

Part of that problem is where they are mounted. A couple things you can try...

1. Mount the amps on 1/2" spacers to get some air flow around them.

2. I believe if I remember correctly that you piggy backed your sub power off the original amp. If that's the case, the original breaker was only fused for the factory amp. You may have to run a dedicated power feed/ground to the sub amp.


Doug

 

[mrsrobinson]

I am still not convinced this thing is performing/behaving the way it should. At high volumes the 6.5s start to pop when there is a lot of bass. A song with bass will come on and I have to run to turn it down, otherwise it throws the breaker.

Today I removed the hot wire to the amp for the sub and honestly, I could not tell any difference with the amp out of the picture, meaning no subwoofer. I simply do not think the sub is working as well as it can/should. I set the HPF to 80 - 100, little to no difference. With the HPF off the 6.5's crack and pop on bass.

I ran a hot red directly to the battery for the sub amp, no difference.

Perhaps the 6.5s are cheap/weak? The 4 channel Clarion amp driving them gets very hot. The sub amp never gets hot. The 4 channel amp for the 4 6.5s is bridged to 2 channels. If I wire them up directly to channels 1-4, removing the bridge, the volume is much lower. They are bridged to the 30 X 4 amp and then paralleled off each other. When bridged they sound much nicer.

I am using the rear RCAs off the head unit for the the 4 outside 6.5s. Where the RCAs go into the amp, each RCA is split to 2 RCAs going in channel 1-2 and channel 3-4. This is the way it was from the factory. This "feels" odd to me but sound sthe best this way.

So, what's up? Why are these 6.5 cracking/popping at high volumes on songs with bass and why does the sub seem to not be working at all?

As a reminder, here is what we have:

Clarion 6.5s, 4 outside: http://www.clarion.com/us/en/produc...rs/CM1605/us-en-product-pf_1132912142847.html

Kenwood 10" sub: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-twR0E6FKVlF/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=113W254M

Pioneer Head Unit: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Source/CD-Players/DEH-P500UB

Pioneer Amp for the sub: http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=207693946&listingid=21900526&dcaid=17902

The Clarion 30 X 4 amp for the 6.5s is original, 1995, not on the internet anywhere.

Thanks

 

[NateRW21]

Run dedicated wire for your amps... I don't know what kind of power you're putting out, but 4ga is usually a good choice; keep in mind that with the long grounding runs required in a boat that you need GOOD wire. The ground wire is actually the MOST important as electricity flows from neg to pos. In car audio installs this isn't an issue because the entire vehicle is one massive neg battery cable so your ground runs are short. Not the case in marine stereos. It sounds like you're running short on power.