New stereo sounds great, I think it could be better though

M

mrsrobinson

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2006
7,704
Virginia
Boat Info
2001 380DA
Engines
Caterpillar 3126
I replaced our 1995 factory Clarion Head unit, factory 10" sub and outdoor factory Clarion 6.5s (4 of them) recently.

The factory Clarion 120 watt 4 channel amp was bridged. 2 channels were bridged to the sub. The other 2 channels went to the 4 outside speakers. The 4 outside speakers are paralleled together.

I added a second 2 channel dedicated amp for the sub and bridged the 2 channels to one.

I bridged the 4 channel factory amp to 2 channels for the 4 6.5s.

I ran the sub RCAs from the new head unit to the new sub amp and the Rear RCAs from the head unit to the factory amp.

Everything works, sounds much better, but I am not getting great highs from the 6.5s nor am I getting a lot of bass out of the sub. The 6.5s seems to bass out to if I turn up the volumne on a tune w/lots of bass. I tried turning on the High Pass Filter on the head unit, which is suppose to take the lows away from the 6.5 rears and send all lows to the sub, not an improvement. I have fiddled with all of the Audio settings on the head unit and I still can't seem to get good highs and great lows from this set up.



Here is what I have:

4 clarion 6.5s: http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=17481

sub amp: http://www.universallcd.com/browseproducts/Pioneer-GM-3300T-2-Channel-Power-Amplifier-GM3300T.html

kenwood 10" sub: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-DwCiuOMGuwB/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=113W254M

pioneer xm tuner: http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=poineer+xm+tuner&i=130P10XMT

pioneer head unit:
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=DEH%2DP5000UB&i=130DEHP500

Where is the weak link in this set up? The 6.5s were not high dollar, and initially they were just to replace the worn out original ones. Do I need to beef up some wires somewhere?

Thanks
 
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Greg,

I hate to say it, but your weak link is the boat. a boat is not a very good sound stage for an audiophile.

You might get marginal improvement from better wires (speaker/power/connectivity)?
 
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I would check your amp ratings to see if it can truly handle having speaker pairs installed. You can really work an amp hard - sometimes harder than it should be - by increasing the power of the amp through a reduction in the ohms. One thing to keep in mind that Sea Ray will do things to save money - in this case they eliminated a dedicated amp for the sub. So - I'd start with checking what your speakers and what type of ohm load they need - the 6.5 link didn't show it. The sub amp shows stable down to 2 ohms so you should be ok there, but your sub is rated at 4 ohms and it's a free air sub which typically has less bass response than a sub intended for a sealed, ported or bandpass enclosure. One way to potentially tweak the overall performance without changing existing hardware is to add a crossover which will allow you to fine tune each channel:

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=82600&i=20603KX3&tp=117

Good luck!
 
"I would check your amp ratings to see if it can truly handle having speaker pairs installed. You can really work an amp hard - sometimes harder than it should be - by increasing the power of the amp through a reduction in the ohms."

FWIW, I did notice this weekend the dc amp needle at the breaker panel was jumping from 0 - 3-4 every time the bass hit. It did not do this with the original factory configuration. In fact at one point everything shut down. I waited a minute or so and everything came back on.

So what's the solution to this if this is a problem? Do not bridge and instead run 4 sets of speaker wires directly from the amp to the 4 outside speakers? Or get a bigger amp maybe?
 
Greg,

Two things I would check, there are crossover settings and gain controls on the amps themselves are they set correctly? Since you now have control of the channels via the head unit, I would set hi/low pass filters to passive and or use them but adjust the crossover points up and down for the different amps. Could your low bass volume be corrected by turning up the gain on that amp?

Dan
 
I believe your problem is that you bridged the factory amp. It's probably not rated to do so. Run it back to the original way and I would assume it should sound much better.

Doug
 
mrsrobinson said:
FWIW, I did notice this weekend the dc amp needle at the breaker panel was jumping from 0 - 3-4 every time the bass hit. It did not do this with the original factory configuration. In fact at one point everything shut down. I waited a minute or so and everything came back on.

So what's the solution to this if this is a problem? Do not bridge and instead run 4 sets of speaker wires directly from the amp to the 4 outside speakers? Or get a bigger amp maybe?
Click to expand...

You can actually add a capacitor which absorbs power spikes and evens out the power delivery.

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=725&i=211PSC401&tp=2614

I do agree with the above statement of changing the connections on the factory amp - I think it's being overdriven at this point which will certainly decrease sound quality.
 
tdappleman said:
You can actually add a capacitor which absorbs power spikes and evens out the power delivery.

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=725&i=211PSC401&tp=2614

I do agree with the above statement of changing the connections on the factory amp - I think it's being overdriven at this point which will certainly decrease sound quality.
Click to expand...

Change them how? Undo the bridge and run one speaker off each channel? Running more speaker wire will be a PITA. Can I just buy a better 2 channel or 4 channel (bridged to 2) amp?
 
douglee25 said:
I believe your problem is that you bridged the factory amp. It's probably not rated to do so. Run it back to the original way and I would assume it should sound much better.

Doug
Click to expand...

It was bridged from Sea Ray/factory, 1 bridge to the previous sub and then the remainining 2 channels went out to the 4 outside speakers, which are paralleled together.
 
i'm running a kenwood kdc-x679 sirius reciever
1 500w jl amp pushing 2 10" jl subs mounted under the
dash, and a rockford 450w 4 channel amp pushing 4 cdt
carbon fiber 6.5 components. this set up rocks loud and
clear.
t300
98 210 select bow rider
 
I also would make sure the SUB is in a 100% sealed box or sealed behind the glass. Ported woofers and free air woofers will give you less performance out in the open as your boat is.
 
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As you are listening to your music outside, you need efficient reproduction of bass. A free-air setup does not work unless there is A LOT of power. An $85 amp probably won't cut it (unless it was $85 after a major clearance sale,... which it is not). Even with a lot of power, free-air is not ideal. It can be very peaky depending on where you are in relation to it.

Try borrowing someone's sealed sub to see if that changes things.
 
I would recommend a 5 channel hybrid amp. You can run the sub and the cockpit speakers from it and the cabin speakers from the head unit. Using mutiple amps are fine but a pita
to mount and wire up. bridgeing and wiring speakers in paralell is not going to produce the kind of sound you are looking for.May I also recommend coaxial speakers for better highs.
Below link is an example. Ther are many different ones. The better the amp the better the sound. A good amp will make so so components sound much better.

http://www.antonline.com/p_GT980-NX_269642.htm
 
I had to pull the sub today to fish a new vhf antenna cable through. With the stereo cranked up the sub has very little vibration on the cone.

From the replies, we have a free-air use sub. It sounds like:

1) we need a higher power amp for the sub?
2) we need a sealed sub?

I figured a Pioneer amp would match up well with the Pioneer head unit. It did not cost much but i figured it was enough for the sub.

The 4 6.5s are 4 ohm.

I bumped the Bass Boost from 0 to 3 on the head unit today and the 6.5s started popping/cracking at higher volumnes. I turned the high pass filter on and there is much less bass at all settings.
 
The system should be tuned at full cranked listening volume. In other words, turn up the volume to probably the 80 - 85% range and tune the amps and head unit (gain, filters, etc) where it sounds best.

From what you're saying on here, for some reason something just doesn't sound right (no pun intended) to me. I have powered crappy subs with crappy amps in the past and I have always been amazed at how good they actually sounded.

My recommendations:

1. First tune your head unit by cranking the trebble all the way up. Turn the bass to say 40% of max. I'm not familiar with that head unit, but I if they have individual frequency levels, adjust it so they would be in the shape of a 'V'. The right of the V would be the treble, middle (low portion) would be the mids, and the left of the V would be the lows. If you need more of an explanation, let me know.

2. If you have the room, try ordering this bandpass box vs. 100% sealed box. I personally have been more satisfied with bandpass boxes vs. sealed boxes. http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Prod...178750&i=044QB1103&search=bandpass+box&tp=128 You could try using the sub in there but since it specifies 'free air' you may need to return it and purchase another one. I would worry too much if the sub is rated for marine use or not if it's mounted in a box.

3. Is there a way that you can bypass the factory amp? I would either have a new separate dedicated amp for the 6.5's or just drive them off the head unit.

Doug
 
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douglee25 said:
The system should be tuned at full cranked listening volume. In other words, turn up the volume to probably the 80 - 85% range and tune the amps and head unit (gain, filters, etc) where it sounds best.

From what you're saying on here, for some reason something just doesn't sound right (no pun intended) to me. I have powered crappy subs with crappy amps in the past and I have always been amazed at how good they actually sounded.

My recommendations:

1. First tune your head unit by cranking the trebble all the way up. Turn the bass to say 40% of max. I'm not familiar with that head unit, but I if they have individual frequency levels, adjust it so they would be in the shape of a 'V'. The right of the V would be the treble, middle (low portion) would be the mids, and the left of the V would be the lows. If you need more of an explanation, let me know.

2. If you have the room, try ordering this bandpass box vs. 100% sealed box. I personally have been more satisfied with bandpass boxes vs. sealed boxes. http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Prod...178750&i=044QB1103&search=bandpass+box&tp=128 You could try using the sub in there but since it specifies 'free air' you may need to return it and purchase another one. I would worry too much if the sub is rated for marine use or not if it's mounted in a box.

3. Is there a way that you can bypass the factory amp? I would either have a new separate dedicated amp for the 6.5's or just drive them off the head unit.

Doug
Click to expand...

I agree with you. It's as if the sub is not getting enough "umph"/power.

The head unit has a Bass Boot, 0-6, anything over 1 and the 6.5s start to crack/pop at high volumes. The 6.5s seem to be taking most of the bass. The HPF is suppose to take the lows away from the 6.5s. With this on all we get is highs and no additional volume from the sub.

I turned the Gain on both amps up to Normal. If I turn it down we lose a lot of volume. I am not real clear what gain is and what it should be set to.

The head unit does not have the typical treble/bass controls. It has an equalizer. It also has separate sub woofer settings. I am just not sure where to set it, the numbers do not mean a lot to me (50 mhz, 80 ???).

If I remove the factory amp for the 4 outside 6.5s the volume levels are very low.
 
mrsrobinson said:
I agree with you. It's as if the sub is not getting enough "umph"/power.

The head unit has a Bass Boot, 0-6, anything over 1 and the 6.5s start to crack/pop at high volumes. The 6.5s seem to be taking most of the bass. The HPF is suppose to take the lows away from the 6.5s. With this on all we get is highs and no additional volume from the sub.

I turned the Gain on both amps up to Normal. If I turn it down we lose a lot of volume. I am not real clear what gain is and what it should be set to.

The head unit does not have the typical treble/bass controls. It has an equalizer. It also has separate sub woofer settings. I am just not sure where to set it, the numbers do not mean a lot to me (50 mhz, 80 ???).

If I remove the factory amp for the 4 outside 6.5s the volume levels are very low.
Click to expand...

1. Ok, if you have an EQ, set the levels to resemble the 'V' that I spoke about earlier.

2. The bass boost is just that, bass boost. Are you sure the bass boost can not be set to say -1 or -2? Is the range just 0 to 6? If so, set it at 0 for now.

3. Gain on the amps is basically volume if you can imagine. This is how much power is being sent to the speaker or sub. Set the sub gain to say 50 - 70% as a starting point. As I said earlier, gain is usually set with the volume up to say 80% on the head unit.

4. The subwoofer settings on the head unit specify what frequency range will be used on the sub. 50 mhz and the head unit will deliver ranges down to 50 mhz to the sub. 80 mhz and the head unit will deliver down 80 mhz to the sub. The higher the number, the higher the frequencies you will hear from the sub.

Again in this order for a starting point... set EQ to 'V', set bass boost to '0', set frequency range on head unit for subs, turn volume up on the head unit and adjust gain on amps.

Questions:

Does the factory amp run off of RCA pre-outs from the head unit or does the factory amp take a speaker output and covert it inside the amp? If you run that amp with pre-outs, there is a chance that the new head unit delivers more power on the pre-outs vs. the factory amp. This is why it basically sounds like crap. Again, the solution is to wire in a separate amp for the 6.5's or just run the 6.5's off the head unit (unbridge the 6.5's if you drive them off the head unit).

Doug
 
"Does the factory amp run off of RCA pre-outs from the head unit or does the factory amp take a speaker output and covert it inside the amp? If you run that amp with pre-outs, there is a chance that the new head unit delivers more power on the pre-outs vs. the factory amp. This is why it basically sounds like crap. Again, the solution is to wire in a separate amp for the 6.5's or just run the 6.5's off the head unit (unbridge the 6.5's if you drive them off the head unit)."

RCA

I am using the existing Rear RCAs from the factory amp to the original factory stereo. I connected those to the rear RCA output on the new head unit and left them connected to the factory amp.

You state wire a separate amp for the 6.5s. This is what we have with the original factory amp, I think. The original factory amp is a Clarion 120 watt 4 channel. 2 sets of speaker wires come off this amp (all original) that go to the front (helm) outside 6.5s. From these front 6.5s another set of speaker wires run to the back (stern) 6.5s, which I think is what's referred to as paralleled. This is all factory. I simply did a bridge off the factory amp for the 6.5s, which is the only change I made to this amp. I added a 2nd amp for the sub, taking it off the factory amp. The factory set up was 2 channlel to the outside 6.5s and one bride to the sub.
 
I am having a tough time understanding the description of your setup. Can you use MS Paint and make a quick diagram?

I think I found another problem in your setup...

Your 2nd amp should not be running off the factory amp. This should run off the new head unit. I checked the specs on the head unit and it has 3 sets of pre-outs (sub (non-fading), front, rear). The new amp needs to be wired to the sub pre-out from the new head unit. I'm pretty sure this is why your sub isn't receiving enough power.

Doug

Edit: This is how I would wire it.
 
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