Lowrance and NMEA 2000

[SeaSu]

Well, I bought the boat, now I need to buy toys for it too I suppose. I've decided on the Lowrance LCX 38HD GPS/Sonar unit. I'm also putting the fuel flow and trim tab sensors in as well. I've been doing some research on the other things I can do and found some NMEA 0183 tachs and a NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000 bridge that I could use to integrate into the system as well. I think I need to replace the tachs as I don't believe they're reading quite right at the moment.

Anyone else doing this or interested in these types of mods, I would be happy to discuss and learn what we've encountered so far.

Thanks

 

[fc3]

Why Lowerance? It's not one of the better electronic navigation companies and their products are, at best, also-rans. Why not look into Furuno, Northstar, Raymarine, or Garmin? They're all good, except Raymarine tends to obsolete products quickly and Garmin uses proprietary electronic charts.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[SeaSu]

Initially I was looking at the Northstar. Unfortunately they dont seem to currently support NMEA 2000 networking. The 660 or M84 would have done what I currently want to do, but being a network engineer and tech geek, I decided that NMEA 2000 support would be a requirement. Raystar was on my initial list, but found some bad reviews on some message boards and decided to scratch them off. Garmin was nice, but seemed over priced for what I was looking for. They had the auto plot feature that would chart a course for you through safe waters, however I think if I can't figure out how to plot it myself, then I probably shouldn't be out there. Furuno would be very nice to have, but again they are priced considerably higher than the Lowrance.

In my pre purchase decisions, I attempted to call Northstar twice. Both times had less than 5 minute hold times and had my questions answered quickly and to my satisfaction. I also tried to call Lowrance twice, each time I waited on hold several minutes before giving up.

We'll see what i think of it once it gets here and I can get back out to the boat to put it in.

 

[Four Suns]

I'm not sure NMEA 2000 would be on a "requirement" list of mine... but that's just me...

NMEA 0183 is going to be around for a long time and it's simple and robust and has LOTS of support. My wife was a computer engineer for NASA and wrote a lot of the data acquisition systems for ozone measurement on aircraft they would fly around and the stuff was a stuck together with NMEA 0183... She was always on the plane because the stuff was always breaking... hmmm.... maybe I can get her to get off her can and write some code for me... we truely are a geek family.

anyway... "simple, unbreakable/reliable, extensible, fast, reputation, good UI".... those would be my requirements.

 

[2000SEARAY280SS]

I have a Lowrance GPS and a Lowrance fish finder. Not sure of the model numbers but they are about two years old and ran about $400 bucks each. The charts seem to be off for my area with fixed water markers showing up on land. Not good. Guess that’s why they have the disclaimer “Not to be used for Navigation”. The fish finder is awesome.

When I got my Searay I opted to go with the Northstar system a M121 with 2Kw digital Radar.
You are right it only supports the NMEA 0183 but it has dedicated interfaces for all the features I wanted. I have radar with chart overlay, fuel sensors, fish finder, and chart recorder. If my boat had the Smartcraft system the Northstar unit would support it also.
They also make an auto pilot.

My biggest problem is the size of the unit covering up the console on my searay. Not a big deal though.

 

[fc3]

What Gary said.

Plus NMEA 0183 is an open protocol, like TCP/IP and NMEA 2000 is a closed, proprietary protocol like Arcnet. Which one do you really want?

Best regards,
Frank C

 

[wkearney99]

Some chart plotters will handle bridging between the NMEA2k and 0183 signals. A number of Raymarine units do this. My E-80 does this. In addition to Lowrance fuel sensors, I've got the E-80 bridging SeaTalk gps, depth and temp over to the NMEA2k bus and showing it on an LMF-200 gauge. Works great.

NMEA 2000 is not a proprietary standard, at least not in the 'luddite' sense being blathered about here. Much of it is based on the automotive CANbus standard. It's specs are fully open to all vendors that participate in then group. What it doesn't have is for-free documentation. It's pay-to-play and it ain't cheap. I daresay the same luddites bitching about this couldn't make heads or tails of it even if it WERE free. But they'll whinge about anything they don't understand.

Given how well the interoperability has come along with mixing and matching NMEA2k devices from MANY different vendors it's utter nonsense to call it proprietary. The standards group but a lot of effort into establishing a MUCH greater number of sentences than the old 0183 format. 0183 is a morass of hassles if you try to start mixing a lot of different devices on the same network. There are multiplexers that attempt to handle this, with mixed success.

At this point if you're installing all new sensors then NMEA2k will certainly be easier to wire. Plan for a single network bus running near various sensors. Add new ones at will at any point that's convenient. No more home-run wiring from the sensors all the way back up to a multiplexer.

The only downside to some existing NMEA2k devices is configuring the sensors. At this point in time it pretty much requires having a display from the same vendor as the sensors. So if you want to use Lowrance sensors you'll have to use a Lowrance display somewhere on the network. But once it's configured you can use any other display to show it's data. If you're going to mix-and-match things it'd be a good idea to know what it takes to configure them first. Companies like Maretron are putting a lot of effort into making it easier by using a PC with a USB-to-NMEA2k bridge. But bear in mind the multifunction gauges can be used for other purposes. I'm considering using a Garmin GMI-10 down in the cabin to provide depth, temp, heading, speed and lat/long for use at a 2nd radio handset. It'll show all my Raymarine and Lowrance data with no trouble. All I'll have to do is tap it's cable into the nearby NMEA2k bus. None of the other devices on the network will need to know anything about it, or be configured to accommodate it. Not quite that simple with 0183 gear.

What sucks is the lack of a reasonably priced bridges from old-school engines. Maretron, Murphy and a couple other companies make them but they're still pretty expensive. For now. It'll be interesting to see if the retrofit market is large enough to make it cost-effective to build them in volume. Right now it doesn't seem to be.

Which NMEA 0183-2k bridge are you considering? Which tachs?

 

[SeaSu]

Products I've been looking at so far.
The Actisense (NGW-1) NMEA 2000 Gateway will supposedly be shipping soon. Maretron/Simrad (AT-10) has an 0183 to 2000 gateway, but the Actisense has a much better price. TBD whether it ships at that price or not. Also found a company called Barebones that will program a NMEA 2000 gateway with several inputs from analog senders. Not sure if they're shipping or not either, but I'm not too hopeful at this point even if the image of it looks identical to the Maretron.
For the tachs I found a CruzPro RH30 Digital RPM Tachometer that outputs data via 0183 which should be able to be converted by the Actisense or other 0183 to 2000 gateway. The actisense can be plugged in to a PC via USB for configuration of what sentences to receive and how to appear on the 2000 network. Since I need to replace my tachs anyway, (stbd reads incorrectly intermittently) I figure it might be worth a shot.

As far as the Raymarine goes..
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the E80 actually bridges the 0183 data onto the 2000 bus. It does however put it on the SeaTalk bus to be read by another E series display.

 

[Four Suns]

I daresay the same luddites bitching about this couldn't make heads or tails of it even if it WERE free. But they'll whinge about anything they don't understand.

Wow... You really are a piece of work...

Is this advice here another one of the things you read in some boating magazine over the winter or have you really done work in this area?

 

[fc3]

Maybe the genius should get a copy of the NMEA 2000 protocol and post it on the Internet. Shouldn't take too long before NMEA's lawyers order him to take down their proprietary specs.

Did you know that if you click a user's name in the heading of a post, that you will then see an option on his profile page that says something like Add wkearney99 to Your Ignore List. When you click that link, it makes your how CSR experience so much better.

 

[CSR_Admin]

Hi Seasu, you are on the right track with getting a nmea2000 network set up on your boat. Unlike 0183, all units can easily integrate via 2000. All new units will support 0183 for the foreseable years, but all of the high end units are now shipping nmea2000 compatible. Instead of plugging things together with junctions boxes nmea 2000 plugs together like legos, limitless, easily configurable and the future. Most engines now support it to. I dare so we maintain the largest inventory of nmea2000 stuff. I have a whole wall full of it and build networks for people what seems like every day. I would be happy to help you put something together. The actisense converters have been " a few months out" for about a year. I have lots of them on order so will be getting them first. Simrad makes a 0183 to 2000 converter you can use now. The Lowrance displays are incredibly high quality, considered in some circles to be the best so don't let the naysayers get you down. The small multifunction LMF displays are actually supplied to Suzuki and Bombardier from Lowrance. I have 2 LMF 400's on each of my boats. What a great little unit. If you don't mind spending more the Maretron DSM displays, and Garmin GMI displays are really nice too. If you have Q's give me a call, not to many nmea2000 scenerios I haven't seen.

 

[wkearney99]

Gee, some people coming along with NO actual helpful advice. Nothing but negativity. What, playing some schoolyard bullying game now children? Hmmm, who should you really be ignoring?

As for the 0183 to NMEA2k via the E-80 you may well be correct. It is passing the SeaTalk sentences over, as that's where I have actual sensors connected. The specs do list what sentences it can output onto 0183. The table has rows for the SeaTalk2 input/output but they're curiously blank in the PDF I've got. I do recall it had to be configured as to which ones to pass. The docs list the following sentences as options for NMEA output: APB, BWC, BWR, DBT, DPT, GGA, GLL, MTW, RMA,RMB, RMC, RSD, RTE, TTM, VHW, VLW, VTG, WPL, ZDA.

Jim at BOE has be a tremendous help in not only supply gear at terrific prices, but at really taking the time to understand the stuff and get answers from the vendors. You be doing yourself a favor getting your stuff through him.

 

[Four Suns]

I do have questions/comments on the NMEA 2000 stuff but want to address this first.

Mr. Keerny:

Let me just show you what we are all talking about. First you come out and say:

Some chart plotters will handle bridging between the NMEA2k and 0183 signals. A number of Raymarine units do this. My E-80 does this. .... Works great.

and add some insults in like no one knows this stuff but you. Then the original poster comes back as says:

As far as the Raymarine goes..
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the E80 actually bridges the 0183 data onto the 2000 bus.

And then you come back and say:

As for the 0183 to NMEA2k via the E-80 you may well be correct.

Which is the usual stuff you of being "almost right" and pounding your chest on it. If someone had not called you on it, then other people may actually believe your writing and not see your "guessing" game.

This is my issue with NMEA 2000 at this point in time. If I look at ANY network diagram, including my own, EVERY time a new fancy schmancy protocol and wiring schema comes out, it is just layered on top of the old stuff.... The old stuff never goes away... it's like network Herpes.... When SeaTalk came out, it was supposed to "save the day" over NMEA 0183 because you could just plug everything together and it worked... didn't need to worry about multiplexers and such (sound familier)... then they found out that plugging too much stuff in caused collisions (network not fast enough) and they come out with SeaTalk-2... Now we have another called SeaTalk-ng... ohhh... and you can't do really high speed stuff so they came out with HSB (high speed bus) which was their flagship network connections... then came HSB-2... And we will leave all the sensors at NMEA 0183 or SeaTalk because it is cheaper than HSB. Now comes E-Series and it doesn't even support the previous year's "flagship" HSB/HSB2!!! Oh yeah... Now we have NMEA 2K which is going to save the day because you can just plug stuff together and it works... and you don't need multiplexers... WAIT! I'VE HEARD THIS ALREADY! and... all the sensors? Well... you can buy "pods" that the sensors hook to and the "pods" will hook to the NMEA 2000 network... (damn well better not call "pods" by their function or people may think they really are buying multiplexers/gateways and that will REALLY screw up our marketing... they do cost about the same though).

And your network diagram? It now has one of EVERY wire type and protocol and myriads of junction boxes on it... but the NMEA 2000 gods sat back and said "it is good. Order more."

So really... what's the big deal with NMEA 2000? (don't respond Bill because it'll just be nonsense). I'm asking that in a serious manner.... Is it because more sensors are going to be added (like engines and such) and they sense it'll be more chatty and the bandwidth needs increasing? Or is it just "time for something new"?

My beef is that I'll wait 5 more years when it's mature and cheap and proven... and before anyone tells me I have to "add another network layer", they have to tell me how to remove one. Oh wait... by then we will have NMEA 2.5K... but it'll be better...

 

[ImpulseIII]

Gary, you are having a "intellectual battle " with an unarmed man...Billy boy just doesn't have the ammunition. You are not being fair...shame..shame!

 

[Four Suns]

I'm just trying to figure out why the NMEA 2K right now... I've read the boating magazines and you would think I should rip out everything and get NMEA 2K but I just don't know why (plus you really can't 'rip out everything' as even some new sensors don't support it).... I like to spend money (or should I say "put everything on credit and refinance my interest only 2nd mortgage to cover the minimum payments") but I just don't see any additional functionality for the price increase... I think I might even lose functionality... Can NMEA 2K do automatic fail over for two GPS sensors?... Or do you have to have two GPS units plug into some "black box" (now don't call it a mulitplexer mind you) for this to work? If I just "plug and play" two identical sensors, how does the "network" know which one to give to all the consumers of the data? The only way I see that possible is if the GPS sensors have more smarts put in them (a.k.a more $$) so they can be set to primary and slave mode.

I don't know... I just think this is a way to have a "common boat network" that'll be very chatty and have sewage level, how much mayo is left in the fridge, the status of that bathroom light and COG being broadcast on the same wire.... but I may be wrong. Reminds of the mid-90's when everyone thought they would have a single wire going to their house for "voice, video, data" and put a 1.5mbs T1 line in for $10K/month and then people realized maybe they needed to wait 15 years for that to really work and the old fashioned 2 wire telephone wire did just fine for voice.

Help me obi-wan.... you're my only hope...

 

[CSR_Admin]

Bill's boat is pretty well decked out with nmea2000 stuff so he is pretty well versed on it. He is right, the E80 is n2k compatible. Seasu is also right, the E80 won't bridge nmea0183 to n2k, most units won't.

Gary, all that stuff you listed is all Raymarine proprietary crap. Nothing to do with n2k. Think of n2k as what Plug and Play did to computers with USB (or whatever). Of course not everything works as with computers, but most will work across brands. From this point on there will be 2 layers. N2K and proprietary network cabling. Network cabling will be used to share network components like sirius weather receivers or radars or FF's. N2K will be used to share all the numeric data like NMEA0183 did (gps position, speed, depth... and some new ones like rpm, pressures, tank levels). Basically anything that can be shared numerically can be shared on n2k devices. I would not bother doing it with old nmea200 equipment, but any boat that is rigged from this point forward should take advantage of n2k. Of course only Lowrance has a n2k VHF available at this point so your VHF will still need to connect via nmea0183.

Airmar, maretron, Garmin, Lowrance, Furuno, Raymarine, and Simrad all have a bunch of new n2k products that will really open your eyes to the capabilities. For example, airmar has a new GPS antenna that has a heading sensor built into it, plug that baby into your network and you now have GPS and heading across every device. You can have multiple GPS antennas too. On my Black Lab boat I have an Eagle NMEA2000 GPS antenna and the Garmin antenna. If I unplug the Garmin antenna the system still has position data.

So on your boat I would not jump out to get a N2K setup anytime soon, but if you add anything new (i know, not you) than make sure it is n2k compatible and start playing with the new protocol. Want to find a fast way to burn up your Visa card with new toys!

 

[Four Suns]

Ohh boy... Selling mode....

So.. I bought an Airmar weather station and it has a built in GPS and heading sensor..(I bought it from you) it's NMEA 0183 or SeaTalk though... NMEA 2000 didn't enable that... that was my point. It doesn't even need a multiplexer to play slave as if it senses a GPS string on the network, it'll use that and not broadcast the one it has internally...

When you say if you unplug the Garmin antenna, what system knows to start using the Eagle GPS? The Garmin? What if I have an E-120 AND and Garmin display (or a Garmin display and a navigation PC)? Is it the display's job to know or do the GPS devices know who is playing master and who is playing slave? Why do you say that is NMEA 2000 dependent (see previous paragraph).

I don't see how one would put a system in today that is all NMEA 2000... Radio DSC has to be NMEA (or SeaTalk), if it's Raymarine, you'll have SeaTalk for a few things, etc. etc... If you are using your laptop, you'll be NMEA 0183, etc...

Yeah yeah... "just buy stuff"...

I'm not convinced this is a good time to go to NMEA 2K yet... Are there any NMEA 2K *only* sensors out there?

And I'm not sure I would use the "USB" analogy... The "new thing" is "Firewire"...

 

[CSR_Admin]

There are lots of n2k only devices out. Lots and lots and lots. For example, on my Seacraft maretron sent me a new 4.5" display to check out, it is nmea2000 only. All I did was plug it into the network and just like that it can read fuel flow, position, depth speed, bla blah blah. Basically it is instantly hooked into everything . I am not sure what the protocol is for choosing one antenna over another for gps position. The weather station you got comes in n2k format or 0183. If you had the n2k network the data would show up on anything else on that network.

Trying to type this bewtween phone calls lol

 

[Four Suns]

The weather station you got comes in n2k format or 0183. If you had the n2k network the data would show up on anything else on that network.

umm... it did that with 0183 also... of course I had to have a NMEA 0183 to Sea Talk converter... Instead of a NMEA 2000 to Sea Talk converter....

I guess the marketing guys are convincing the world that a bus configuration is better than a star configuration? Is that it? So are we going back to "thick Ethernet" and getting rid of this pesky "cat5 Ethernet" stuff? Shoot... it requires an Ethernet hub and back in the thick Ethernet days, we just tied into the bus!!!!

I know there are a lot of NMEA 2000 displays... just haven't seen NMEA 2000 only sensors... the sensors usually do both 2K and 0183... and a lot do only 0183... where are a listing of these sensors (NOT DISPLAYS)? I would like to learn about them... I'll give you that some of the new displays (Raymarine, Garmin, etc.) are really really nice with data display... but that's not been enabled by NMEA 2000... and they usually support multiple protocols...

Still seams like people are trying to sell stuff before its prime... if you recall, some of the original USB 1.0 devices don't work on current USB 2.x ports...

Trying to type this bewtween phone calls lol

Is it noodle brain Kearny bitching about me? Tell him to go read some more boating magazines.

 

[Four Suns]

One also has to wonder if some of the "lessons learned" from the "thick Ethernet" days will rear their ugly head again...

For example, the marketing literature says that if a sensor "goes bad", the rest of the network will still work... ok... I'm not real sure what the heck that has to do with a bus topology versus a star topology but... ok... Let us now define "bad". Does that mean the device goes dead and just stops communicating and the network data just keeps flowing by? Ok... What happens when the device decides to "go bad" a different way? Like when the sewage tank monitor gets really upset in 6 foot seas for 5 hours and decides to just broadcast 1,000,000 times a second it is half full? Or the vacuflush sensor (made in China with lead) decides to overtake the network and remind you 5000 times a second the duckbills are bad and the helm nav system stops working... Can that happen? It sure was a good reason to go to a star/home run topology on computer networks and get away from the whole bus thing... Network reliability in bus configurations is determined by the cheap misbehaving devices... weakest link thing (I personally brought down NASA Langley's entire network in 1987 messing with a Mac on the network... my Mac "owned it" for awhile.... I no longer work there). The multiplexer I have (I didn't buy that from you... sorry) will shut up a run away sensor... how does that happen with NMEA 2000? Or do they not "go bad" like that? Will it be prudent to segment the "critical" and "non-critical" networks and data? Or do we really want to see how much ice is in the icemaker down below while navigating a squall?

Hey... Rumor has it that NMEA 2.5K due out in March of 2011 will be based on a star configuration with NMEA 2.5K Hubs with the big advantage being if a line is cut, it won't bring down the whole network but just a single sensor. Also, you'll have greater control of bad sensors and network storms... just a rumor though... yippeeee.

I am a real pain in your ass today?