"Lite" winterizing?

[trflgrl]

Didn't find what I was seeking on a search, so please forgive if I've missed this conversation somewhere. Not hauling out, not shutting down completely; will be launching a few times over the cold months and rolling right into spring. It's rare that we get ice in the dock areas, but last year we did, though I'm guessing a max of a couple of inches in the shallowest areas. Nothing like in my home region of northern IL!!!

Last season I followed the lead of various friends who have larger and smaller boats and have been on the water several years. The Boatsafe engine compartment heater worked like a champ, but cabin heater wasn't as successful. Thankfully no damage, but am looking for an improved plan.

Started with a low-profile heater that the previous owner left with the boat:
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--portable-cabin-heater--7867500

I didn't trust that it was kicking on in antifreeze mode so added a home/office style Honeywell unit with thermostat; but I think the lowest setting was in the 50s so it was running much more often than I liked--utility bill went NUTS. I know it's cheaper than repairs damage, but I'm hoping you veterans can help me find a happy medium!

So my questions are:

Are there other types of cabin heaters I should consider? (I do see where some folks have commented that insurance may be void if damages are caused by non-installed heat sources--will investigate and weigh my risks)

How many should I consider? My initial thought is 2, in case one dies....other thoughts?

What type of monitor should I consider (I don't think there's reliable wi-fi)? Some folks have mentioned ones that will log low temps over a period of time, but I haven't found much that will show beyond the lowest temp in the last 24 hours.

As for plumbing/appliances: do I drain the fresh water system each time I leave the boat, keep it full, or somewhere in between?
Do I try to drain the water heater when we leave the boat (assuming we're good at turning off the breaker, of crourse!)?

We use the factory-installed heat/air unit when we're on shore power as well as out and about on generator power. Is there anything I should or shouldn't be doing to it over winter?

Thanks in advance!

 

[JimT]

Last winter was unusually cold. I doubt it's the new norm. I have an Xtreme bilge heater and use one of the ceramic Honeywell heaters. I also set the reverse cycle heater to its lowest setting. Open the door to the head and the cabinets under the sink for air flow. You can also drain the water system by opening all faucets with the water pump off. The hot water heater is in the bilge so it should be protected by the bilge heater. I live close enough to the boat to check on it during really cold spells and my marina will let me know if there is a power failure.

 

[Madifonzo]

Didn't find what I was seeking on a search, so please forgive if I've missed this conversation somewhere. Not hauling out, not shutting down completely; will be launching a few times over the cold months and rolling right into spring. It's rare that we get ice in the dock areas, but last year we did, though I'm guessing a max of a couple of inches in the shallowest areas. Nothing like in my home region of northern IL!!!

Last season I followed the lead of various friends who have larger and smaller boats and have been on the water several years. The Boatsafe engine compartment heater worked like a champ, but cabin heater wasn't as successful. Thankfully no damage, but am looking for an improved plan.

Started with a low-profile heater that the previous owner left with the boat:
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--portable-cabin-heater--7867500

I didn't trust that it was kicking on in antifreeze mode so added a home/office style Honeywell unit with thermostat; but I think the lowest setting was in the 50s so it was running much more often than I liked--utility bill went NUTS. I know it's cheaper than repairs damage, but I'm hoping you veterans can help me find a happy medium!

So my questions are:

Are there other types of cabin heaters I should consider? (I do see where some folks have commented that insurance may be void if damages are caused by non-installed heat sources--will investigate and weigh my risks)

How many should I consider? My initial thought is 2, in case one dies....other thoughts?

What type of monitor should I consider (I don't think there's reliable wi-fi)? Some folks have mentioned ones that will log low temps over a period of time, but I haven't found much that will show beyond the lowest temp in the last 24 hours.

As for plumbing/appliances: do I drain the fresh water system each time I leave the boat, keep it full, or somewhere in between?
Do I try to drain the water heater when we leave the boat (assuming we're good at turning off the breaker, of crourse!)?

We use the factory-installed heat/air unit when we're on shore power as well as out and about on generator power. Is there anything I should or shouldn't be doing to it over winter?

Thanks in advance!

Where i live we do complete haul outs and winterizations. But since your boat has heat, can't you use its own system to keep the cabin above normal? Not sure if the water lines would freeze but just a thought. I know someone here who is a live aboard year round and he just keeps the heating system set to 70'...granted its always running but they are typically rated for continuous duty use.

 

[RollerCoastr]

But since your boat has heat, can't you use its own system to keep the cabin above normal? Not sure if the water lines would freeze but just a thought.

There are two issues with using boat heat: the lines don't actually have to freeze for the unit to shutdown. Dometic recommends water temps no lower than 40°, and somewhere in the mid-30's, the unit will shutdown. (they can run with water slightly below 35°, but the colder the cabin is to begin with, the warmer the water needs to be to avoid a shutdown).

The other issue is the necessity of keeping that seacock open. The difference between water freezing in the lines with the seacock closed vs open is some plumbing and component repairs in the spring vs. refloating the boat!

I would recommend winterizing the lines and not try to heat the cabin. Boats aren't insulated, so if we have another bad winter, you could spend a lot of money trying to heat the cabin and still be at a freeze risk for water lines that are run too close to the hull/outside for the heater to protect.

 

[trflgrl]

Last winter was unusually cold. I doubt it's the new norm. I have an Xtreme bilge heater and use one of the ceramic Honeywell heaters. I also set the reverse cycle heater to its lowest setting. Open the door to the head and the cabinets under the sink for air flow. You can also drain the water system by opening all faucets with the water pump off. The hot water heater is in the bilge so it should be protected by the bilge heater. I live close enough to the boat to check on it during really cold spells and my marina will let me know if there is a power failure.

You caught that I was extra paranoid, eh? Yes--last winter was off the charts! Been in TN 24 years and hadn't experienced anything like it!! Thanks for the tips on draining; I think we'll do that this time as extra precaution, since it takes only a few min to refill if we want to head out (we just haven't gotten in the habit of leaving it on shore water when we're not there.)

I live close, as well, which helped tremendously but was a real drag on my land life--I think I was going over there every 2-3 nights to monitor the temp readings and turn heaters on or off depending on what the next forecast was. I don't think our marina notifies of power outages, though my new dock has a facebook page so I'm hoping neighbors will do so.

Where i live we do complete haul outs and winterizations. But since your boat has heat, can't you use its own system to keep the cabin above normal? Not sure if the water lines would freeze but just a thought. I know someone here who is a live aboard year round and he just keeps the heating system set to 70'...granted its always running but they are typically rated for continuous duty use.

My particular system doesn't have a thermostat I can adjust the way I'd like, so I'm thinking the potential for prolonged electrical draw could be costly. My confidence would be greater using reliable space heaters that have lower temp settings possible, like 40 or 45--was hoping others might have some recommendations. I do like the low, flat design of the West Marine model for low risk of tipping, as we've had some big wind before.

And a question about fuel--I've had the boat only two seasons and have never burned down the tanks. I treat with Startron every time I fuel....is there anything I should do differently....should I keep them as full as possible over winter....? I've seen varying responses in other threads, but mostly for haulout/full winterization situations.

 

[JimT]

I treat with Star Tron during the winter. I burn enough fuel during other times of the year that I don't use it.

Do you have a way to monitor your lake water temperature? I have a website that I can go on to check. Last year even on the coldest nights which were in the single digits the water temp never got below 45. During the day it would bounce back into the low 50s.

 

[trflgrl]

I treat with Star Tron during the winter. I burn enough fuel during other times of the year that I don't use it.

Do you have a way to monitor your lake water temperature? I have a website that I can go on to check. Last year even on the coldest nights which were in the single digits the water temp never got below 45. During the day it would bounce back into the low 50s.

I can probably drop a thermometer dockside to be sure--we're a relatively shallow lake, maybe 20 - 50 ft near the docks, max of about 80 - 100 ft in most of the channels. And I'll look into what RollerCoastr's describing, as we left the sea cock open for the heater/AC unit last year, and if that's not the best plan we'll modify it for sure!

We don't burn a lot of fuel, as we're the rafting sort and it's a short haul to the social zone....and it's highly likely there's ethanol in our fuel, thus the permanent StarTron recommendation from a couple of local mechanics.

 

[BryanOnTheBay]

Are there other types of cabin heaters I should consider? (I do see where some folks have commented that insurance may be void if damages are caused by non-installed heat sources--will investigate and weigh my risks)

How many should I consider? My initial thought is 2, in case one dies....other thoughts?

As has been stated, boats aren't insulated, so it is tough for heaters to keep up. The other question is will your electrical circuit handle two heaters at full blast? The other big specter if we have another bad winter is power outages from storms. No power, no heat.

I would think you would be better off planning for things to freeze.

What type of monitor should I consider (I don't think there's reliable wi-fi)? Some folks have mentioned ones that will log low temps over a period of time, but I haven't found much that will show beyond the lowest temp in the last 24 hours.

I am trying to determine the point of knowing if you have had below freezing temps on a boat that you are not winterizing. All that tells you is that something most likely cracked somewhere in your boat.

As for plumbing/appliances: do I drain the fresh water system each time I leave the boat, keep it full, or somewhere in between?
Do I try to drain the water heater when we leave the boat (assuming we're good at turning off the breaker, of crourse!)?

I would completely empty and blow the fresh water system out and fill as necessary when you use the boat. Otherwise, you will be trying to flush out the antifreeze taste each time you want to use the boat.

We use the factory-installed heat/air unit when we're on shore power as well as out and about on generator power. Is there anything I should or shouldn't be doing to it over winter?

Thanks in advance!

+1 for RollerCoastr's answer.



Frankly, I would not "lite" winterized, as it will fail you when you need it most. Put antifreeze in your engine, blow out your water lines, and undo as little as possible when you use the boat. You don't need running water if you are only out a couple of hours. Bring it in a cooler. Use antifreeze in the engine, and blow out your lines. Make sure you get a few cases of antifreeze and use it liberally in the engine, drains, head, air conditioner, etc. Drain everything else you can and leave it that way if possible.

Bryan

 

[dwna1a]

Trflgrl, what's the plan for when you loose power to the boat? Pink is cheap compared to a new motor. Even with my bilge heater on I drain and blow out all the fresh water lines. Drain my mufflers and pour pink in the strainers till iy comes out the muffler drains. I can still go out or some of the warm days and just reapply the pink.

with the ice storms we get...I think you might be better off to do more than just use a heater

 

[trflgrl]

There wasn't a plan for long-term power outage....which is why I'm picking the collective brain of CSR to hear what others do in situations/climates similar to mine. Several people in my crew have taken this "lite" approach for a few years so I followed their lead as a newbie, and we all did ok, but I'd like to sweat the details a little more and improve the odds the second time around. (And of course, if they learn a thing or two from what you all share, they'll be oh-so-grateful I discovered THIS crew!)

I did have two heaters for some of the time--I ran both manually for testing purposes and there were no problems with any breakers tripping, fuses burning, etc. I just didn't trust that the one was turning on when it should.

What do I use to blow out the fresh water lines after draining them?

 

[JimT]

Winterization techniques vary by locale. What makes sense in MI or MD doesn't necessarily make sense in NC or TN. We boat year round and often sleep on the boat when we get one of those January warm ups when temps hit the 70s. No one in my marina blows out their water lines and runs pink through their engines unless they are hauling out for the season, don't intend to use the boat at all or they are on a boat lift. If I am sitting in 40- 45 degree water my blocks are not going to freeze even if it's 10 degrees outside.

 

[dwna1a]

I completely agree with Jim here but once or twice a winter we still get a cold snap.

I take a small pancake compressor down and hook it up at the highest point then blow the water into the bilge. If you don't want or have a compressor open the outlets at highest point of your system then remove the fitting at the lowest point (mine is at the water filter and pump) it will drain using gravity. Be sure to pull the line before the pump to drain the tank. Also drain the water heater and be sure to pump out the holding tank. Close all seacocks if you have them and I use a wet/dry vac to remove the water from the strainer (two boats sank here due to busted strainer glass)

 

[trflgrl]

I've found the Army Corp web site that publishes current conditions including water temp--saving that as a favorite! Really appreciate everyone's input and will keep soaking up more details as you all think of them. Will share with First Mate so we can make our plan to button up better than last year but still leave ourselves some flexibility.

Last year we had some of our deepest, most prolonged cold in mid/late November through early December, and the engines definitely sassed us when we launched for the marina's Christmas parade.

 

[dwna1a]

One question for you, have you put your canvas on yet? As it gets colder it get harder to get it to stretch to fit. If it has glass in it it can get really tough.

 

[trflgrl]

Not yet on canvas--high likelihood we'll continue to have warm spells for a few to several weeks. I think we put it on around Thanksgiving last year. And we were VERY thankful because that's when the cold snap hit hard!

 

[trflgrl]

Rereading and taking some additional steps now that we're in a short cold snap.

Got the canvas up in plenty of time to appreciate it, engines sassed during 12/13 Christmas parade as expected, but so far so good with two space heaters in cabin on anti-freeze setting, and Boatsafe heater operating reliably. Dec 31 Army Corps post said surface water temp was 44, but I'm hoping for an update soon.

This feels like a really dumb question--we don't see sea cocks for the engines and I'm not finding notation on owner manuals, hull diagrams, etc. Is that because we're I/O, and the cooling water intakes are somewhere on the outboard motors themselves?

 

[CliffA]

This feels like a really dumb question--we don't see sea cocks for the engines and I'm not finding notation on owner manuals, hull diagrams, etc. Is that because we're I/O, and the cooling water intakes are somewhere on the outboard motors themselves?

no such thing as a 'dumb' question....questions are asked so you (and others) can learn....

since you have an I/O with Alpha drives the water intake for the engines is in the lower section of the drives....it is a series of aligned holes on both sides of the drive as shown in the pic below....just be sure the outdrives are stored in the 'down' position when the boat is not used...this will allow the water to drain from the outdrive and also relieve the stretching of the bellows....

EDIT: i assume your boat is in the water now so draining the outdrives is obviously not an issue but i would still leave the drives in the down position to relieve the bellows...

Also, not sure if you found an indoor/outdoor thermometer to monitor the temp in the engine bay, but i bought this one from my local Home Depot and it seems to work well....it will record the all-time high and low outdoor temps without automatically resetting itself...it can be reset by pulling the batteries....

http://www.homedepot.com/p/AcuRite-Wireless-Digital-Weather-Thermometer-00822HDSBA3/100654926


cliff

 

[CliffA]

You folks do understand that the cabin can collect gas fumes and blow up the boat and all the other boats around it. You should never use a heater that is not ignition protected in any gas boat. Also when you keep your boat in the water for months without use you should close all sea cocks. If you get a leak and a hose breaks and the boat sinks you insurance company might not cover the damage. So close you sea cocks , and never use regular space heaters in a gas boat.

well, that is a new one for me....i have been participating in this forum for several years and have read many posts on other forums and i don't remember ever hearing about an explosion hazard from gas fumes collecting inside of a cabin...now CO collecting in the cabin is a very real hazard that has been well documented....and gas fumes collecting in the bilge/engine bay is another well documented hazard....

i am always willing to learn something new, especially when safety is involved....can you provide more details how the gas fumes can collect in the cabin?....the fumes are heavier than air so if there was a gas leak i would think the fumes would stay low in the bilge...also the boat manufacturers do not use explosion proof electronics and switches in the cabin...if this were a concern then every time you flip a light switch or plug something into an AC outlet in the cabin there would be a risk of explosion...

cliff

 

[trflgrl]

Thanks, Cliff, and yes, boat's still in the water and we've been staying overnight occasionally to keep doing projects. I appreciate the detail and pic to help answers stick in my head. Really loving all the education (and entertainment :smt038 ) I get from you and the rest of the folks here on CSR!

Thermometer recommendation is great, too, answering some questions I couldn't find in the specs.

I love this place!

 

[dwna1a]

Andy, did you mean the ER or cabin?

If I was to have fuel fumes in the cabin I would have bigger problem than the need to heat cabin space.