Just picked up the 480 and now have some questions

[brimanst]

Well, I did the long drive again with a minivan full of boat stuff and 3 passengers, but we made it to Ft. Myers and took delivery of the 480DB. Left the fuel dock yesterday and made our way to Key West. In 2-3's with an ocasional 4-5, by the way. 1st 2 dockings under my belt with no major issues :smt038 .
I have some questions about the CAT 3196 operating ranges.

1. My water temp runs right under the red zone on the guage. I figured out how to use teh scroll button and I think I remember the values of water temp to be around 200. They never reached the red, but stayed just under the entire way. Is this normal?

2. My port side trans pressure is running 38, to where my stbd is running 20(psi?). Is this an acceptable range difference? What could it be?

3. My alternator seems to put out less than 12 volts at cruise speed but 13v at idle. This seems odd, so I am wondering if that is normal as well. BTW, I had the genny running the entire time, and did not remember to turn of the converters. I don't know if this affects anything.

4. Right before the NW channel into KW, my biilge stayed on constantly, so we slowed down to investigate and saw a steady stream of water coming from the other side of the outermost stringer. It was small, so we decided to just take it easy until we hit the dock, since it was getting dark. When it started, everytime I would speed up, it would get worse (the bilge would continuously run) when I slowed down, the bilge came on intermittently. After about 10 mins at 1000 rpm, i decided to increase it 100 rpms at a time until the bilge came on steady. It never happened again. I came into KW on plane with no running bilge pump. We let the motors cool and crawled around them with no success of finding a leak anywhere, except some A/C drain which we repaired. Does anyone have a suggestion on what it could be or how to find it. It is naturally on the outboard side of the port motor, where I cannot fit (6'0" and 240lbs).

Any help is appreciated and no I am not going on a diet for this. Thanks in advance, back to drinking.

Briman

 

[JC3]

Brian, Frank Iam sure will come along shortly but here are some thought from a very new 1998 450DA owner. The instruments on the panel are often misleading. I try and take a peek or two at engine instruments. I also bought thermal temperature meter to check(It has been very helpfull). What did they read during survey?
The impellers could be wearing along with heat exchangers needing cleaned. What about fluids? When were they changed? Per Franks excellent instructions i try and log all instrument reading
so i can look back and see how everything was. On the Tranys, did you survey the trany fluids? JC
My alternator was doing the same thing. We checked it and it had to be relpaced. Now the new one is running a little north of 14 and will have to be rechecked this fall. Dont want to fry the batteries.

 

[EKM]

Briman, Congrats on the new boat and your adventures to KW. :grin:

My concerns would be to fix your temp problems before running the boat much longer. KW does seem to be a bad area to hold up for a day for repairs. Did this come up in the survey? I, too just purchased a new to me Diesel and this was one of the survey issues. I was running at 195f per hand held pyro which agreed with the panel gages. My Cat mechanic told me not to run the boat any distance until you can drop it down to normal temps...you don't want to risk overheating. Anyway, I changed the pump impellers and flushed the system with Barnacle Buster Cleaner. It dropped temps to 180f on one engine and 190f on the other engine. The better disolving cleaner is Ryd-Lyme but I could not get it locally. Next step for me is to pull the heat ex apart for cleaning.

Anyway, do want to bore you with details, but best of luck on your cruise north....Ed

 

[fwebster]

Here's an opinion.........

1. Engine temps- the Cats have 194 degree thermostats, but Cat cooling systems are way over designed. The thing to watch for is stradily increasing temps as rpm's go up or when ypou put the engines under a load. Ateady temps between 190 and 195 are about normal. Verify the thermostat temps for 3196 since my memory is out of date on them. It is also likely that the heat exchangers and oil coolers need to be cleaned on a '98 model boat.

2. Transmissions- get someone to evaluate the transmission pressures and check the transmissions. This much variance does not look right. It may be just a clogged filter, but it may also be a failing pump. When a pump fails, you will learn how to handle the boat on one engine. If it does fail under way, you need to tie off that shaft to keep it from turning or you will burn up your dripless shaft seals.

3. Alternator- looks like you have a bad alternator or voltage regulator.

4. Bilge pump running- This is probably a.) a leaky seal in a sea water pump b.) a worn out dripless shaft seal or c.) a loose hose clamp on the sea water side of the cooling system. Get some ear plugs and figure out all the places on the 3196 that can bite you whlie they are running, then crawl down in the engine room with a flash light and look around while one of your partners in crime runs the boat at cruise rpms. Point the flashlight and look where the beam goes but keep your hands out from under the motors and away from the front and rear of the engine/transmission.


I have to ask, did you have a mechanical survey done on this boat? I know things happen, but I would think this stuff should have been caught by the surveyor and fixed before you became committed to the trip.

None of the above is serious or too expensive........Hope this helps

 

[Four Suns]

I'll put my 2 cents in here... but remember I can't spell M.A.N. correctly.

#1) I have no idea as I have different engines...

#2) What Frank said

#3) What Frank said

#4) That sounds like something I chased down a little over a year ago and posted it on SRO. Check your AC pan that is under the stairs going down to the lower stateroom level. Sea Ray, in their infinite wisdom, mounts the pan with the drain on the front. If that drain get's clogged and the pan fills up, as soon as you get on plane the pan empties out the back and turns on the bilge pump instead of the water going down the drain. I re-engineering mine and put a drain on the back of the pan where it belongs and plugged up the front drain. Also, go in the port side stateroom and check under the bed storage and there is an access panal under that to the hull. Make sure there is no water in there. Any window leakage will get in there and when you get on plane... bilge pumps kick in.

My 2 cents...

Really.. I can spell M.A.N.....

 

[brimanst]

Thanks for the info. I did have the hull and the motors surveyed. He performed an engine oil analysis, but not the transmissions. I could not find a filter on the tranny's, but the oil level is OK and the oil looks really clean.

The temps were also indicated in the survey to run between 185-200, which the surveyor indicated was within manufacturer's specs. I was just told that all the analog guages should point "north" when all is good, and the water temps ride just below the red line. I will make a log the next time we travel, using the scroll options to get a digital readout.

The survey indicated that the VDC at the alternator was 13.5VDC at all RPMS and that the guages showed 12.5VDC at all RPMS. I have not checked with the meter yet, I will before I change them out. It seems odd that both sides show the same abnormal indications just after the surcvey showed them normal. I was not at the survey, so I just have the reports, but I do have 2 independant reports; one from the Hull guy and one from the motor guy.

Frank,
It is amazing that you could narrow it down from my description. We have not found it yet, but suspected the same thing, minus the shaft seals. We will continue to look for the problem and determine whether the water is hot or cold, and salt or fresh.

Again, thanks for your help. We have to hang south a little longer due to that storm up there :thumbsup:

 

[Asureyez]

Three Cents:

Taking a hard run is a great way to shake out the gremlins for a boat laid up for the sales process and as we've come to expect selling owners don't maintain the boat.

1. On the alternator, if its charging fine at idle and drops on crusie speeds, a worn or loose belt just might be the culprit. I'd for sure check the belt tension and belt condition.

2. If its not sloppy then the VR is likely the culprit. If the VR is internal on that alternator, just buy a new one rebuilt one and have yours repaired as a spare.

3. Water in the out board stringer gives cause to suspect wet exhaust problems. I for sure would get on the hunt as Frank suggests and wiggle back there. But the engine speed seeming to cause increased flow really makes me want to look for cracked hoses, failed gaskets in the heat exchanger, dripless shaft logs dripping or failed shaft seal cooling water hoses. Make sure you hand tug test every stainless hose clamp and for sure those bigg'uns on the exhaust system.

In getting into impossible places, I use a thick movers blanket as padding and heat insulation and inch worm my way in. Have a mate hand you tools and help you back out when the time comes. But by all means inspect all you can with a ladies hand hair mirror, or spring for a good larger inspection mirror at an auto parts store, before spelunking back in those crooks and crannies.

A word on repairs in KW. If you're in KW Bight, its a great place to have to lay up and wait for repair techs, I mean might as well wait a Capt. Tony's eh! Almost all factory rated techs have facilities in Marathon or Islamorada and have trucks in KW all the time.

If you have to haul, I'd limp up to Marathon for haul out if required.

If you need a hand with anything out of Lauderdale, let me know.

 

[Skip]

Only thing I will add is that on ZF trannies the filter is a small metallic (and I assume magnetized) perforated cylinder that resides behind (on my 280 Series IVs anyway) behind a 22MM cap on the bottom of the forward edge fo the transmission. Forget about getting to it with anything but a 22MM socket and ratchet. If the factory paint is still on the cap this tells you that the filter enver got its annual cleaning.
I also had water in the bilge--the product of the previous owner never visiting the engine room and tightening any hose clamps. As fwebster reminded me in my first month of diesel ownership, diesels vibrate a lot and hose clamp tension inspection is a semi-annual requirement.

Good luck with her

 

[fwebster]

Skip, I think, but am not sure, that the 3196's are coupled to Twin Disc not ZF gears................

 

[Skip]

Frank,
I am sure you are correct.

The factory paint on the ZF filter caps is a pretty good maintenance indicator, though..especially on an older boat. My surveyor did not catch this item, nor did i. But with only 107 hours on her at delivery i think the trannies were and are fine. I have the right tools and spare filters now to do the proper service. I only changed the 30W in the ZFs at winterization...did not have the proper tool to get to the filter.
Draining the trannies, swapping out the filters, and re-filling with rotella t 30W will be an afternoon project this month.
Beats working!

regards
Skip

 

[brimanst]

OK, here is an update after the second run from Key
West to Miami Beach. I took some advice and logged the guage values so I can give accurate details, since my memory does not allow for that.

Here are the readings, but my first question, is am I correlating the CAT digital values with the proper analog guage?

Label Port Stbd Analog Guage
GA-1 42 41 Engine Oil Pressure
GA-2 201 199 Engine Temp
GA-3 230 238 Trans Pressure
GA-4 168 138 Trans Temp
SPD 2023 2027 Engine RPM
LOAD 84 85 Percentage of Engine Load
FUEL 26 26 GPH (ouch)

Amps 12.7 12.5
SOG 25.2Knots

So as you can see, I made a mistake on my first post about the trannies, they are running at different temps, not pressure.

Also, I am getting good readings on the Amp meters when I ensured that all lights in the cabin are off. If they are on, however, I get the previous condition of less than 12vdc.

The bilge never came back on, so I still haven't isolated a leak, unless it was the A/C drain that we tightened.

The boat runs great. The delivery capt. told me to run the boat to where the water is breaking about half way on the waterline, but I notice that the load of the engines go down and the speed goes up when I trim the bow way down. How does this sound to everyone else?

The holding tank vent is clogged, so now I am a plumber :smt009 .

Thanks again for all the help, this has been a great learning experience.

BTW, docking this is sooo much nicer than my 340DA. I feel in control! Still scary knowing that I have 40,000lbs to stop.

 

[fwebster]

The gauge reading look normal to me, except for the transmission oil temperatures. I suspect you have some grass caught in the tubes in the oil cooler. Eel grass is a thin tough as wire sea grass that one end goes in one tube and another in an adjoining tube. As it builds up, you get a partial blockage. After you get the boat home, you may want to pull the inlet and outlet hoses off the oil coolers and see if you can see the blockage. Its is usually easy to pick the greass out with tweezers or a back flow of freshwater.

Glad you are having a good trip......................