Inverter and Charger or Inveter/Charger combo

[Nehalennia]

I know that the charger on our 260DA needs to be replaced. Currently there is no Gen and no inverter. We won't be installing a Genny, but I'm going to install a large 12V battery

or 2 6V Golf cart batts in series
and either and 2k inverter and Charger or an Inverter/charger.

What have you guys done or what do you recommend?
The first Advantage I see is in buying the two seperate units is that the inverter cost has come down and inverter/charger units have stayed relatively the same price.
Xantrez makes some pretty nice inverters and inverter/charger units, but I only want to do this once.

 

[JV II]

I'm putting two 6V gold cart batteries ($250 total) on the house bank with a 1000W inverter ($99) to handle plug ins only. The everything else runs on DC, so I'll benefit from the reserve amps in the house bank for at least two overnights. Don't need the microwave while on the hook. The inverter will pretty much only be used for the wife's hair dryer.

 

[Nehalennia]

I'm putting two 6V gold cart batteries ($250 total) on the house bank with a 1000W inverter ($99) to handle plug ins only. The everything else runs on DC, so I'll benefit from the reserve amps in the house bank for at least two overnights. Don't need the microwave while on the hook. The inverter will pretty much only be used for the wife's hair dryer.

Yeah I saw your thread on the inverter. Great price. But Why not go for the 2000W one? Then you can run whatever you need. I'm just trying to decide on if I should get separate units or the combo.

 

[JV II]

I looked at a 2000W Xantrex MS2000 for $1600, wiring it into the panel, etc. The overall cost of that would be ~$3,500 (per the dealer). I'd need 6 golf cart batteries for that system. More expensive and complex. Still can't run the AC. Gain - microwave use. Loss - $3,000.

 

[Nehalennia]

I looked at a 2000W Xantrex MS2000 for $1600, wiring it into the panel, etc. The overall cost of that would be ~$3,500 (per the dealer). I'd need 6 golf cart batteries for that system. More expensive and complex. Still can't run the AC. Gain - microwave use. Loss - $3,000.

Ouch, the install price seems way to high. I intend on installing it myself. It shouldn't be that hard.

 

[JV II]

Here's the dealer breakdown:

Price breakdown:

MS2000 Inverter/charger $1,999.00
SCP System Control $250.00
Batteries $110.00ea $660.00
Wire and Connectors $200.00
Labor $1,260.00
Grand Total $4,369.00 plus tax on parts and materials

As you can see, this is a bit much and overkill. The 1000W Vector Marine inverter I got will be mounted to the bulkhead in the rear birth so its two GFI outlets can be reached by the head and galley. The set-up I got was $350 plus $50 for wires and connectors. Total cost of my install $400. No modifications to the boat. Will take an hour to install. Kept simple. Serves my purpose. Saved $4000 for gas, which should get me through my term with this boat before I buy bigger one with a genny.

 

[sbw1]

What kind of wires do you guys plan to use and how will it be finished?

 

[JV II]

The inverter needs air circulation for cooling, so it is best not stuffed into a compartment. Also, it is not recommended to be put in the bilge because of possible gas ignition. I'll mount it to the portside of the midberth bulkhead. That way it will be out of site, exposed for air circulation, safe, close to the battery bank, and reachable for plug-ins. I'm going to use 2GA Ancor Marine grade battery cable. The cables sold by the inverter retailers are "heavy duty," but not marine grade. Spending the extra money will pay dividends in reliability. Using 2GA vs the recommended 4-6GA will minimize resistance and loss in the cable. I'll use a cable cover and run it up in the corner and through the portside wall of the midberth into the bilge and to the battery bank. All brass connections will be soldered and shrink wrapped. There will be an inline fuse.

 

[JAndrewG]

Todd,

Your 260 has two banks, correct?

My old 340 had two. The start bank, port side, is a single group 27 battery, and the house bank on the starboard side is a pair of goup 27's in parallel. I added a third bank and switch for the generator, again a single group 27. In this boat there just isn't any room to use larger batteries.

I bought a factory refirbished Xantrex Prosine 2000w inverter / charger on eBay for just under $1100. As such, it had a factory warranty. It is a true sinewave unit, so the AC current it produces is cleaner than your house. This is not needed for a hairdryer, but nice for a TV or other electronics. The control panel is a remote unit that you can mount most anywhere.

JuliaValentine is absolutely correct in that they are not ignition protected and must be installed somewhere other than the bilge. Similar to his installation, I mounted mine on the forward (cabin) side of the bulkhead.

Put some thought into it and do some homework, then the actual installation is pretty straight forward. First is that at full capacity, my unit is making about 17 amps at 120 volts. Since they are just under 90% efficient, that becomes a 180 plus amp draw on the DC (battery) side. Measure the distance between the batteries and the installed location of the inverter, and double it to get the total cable length. They recommend something like no more than 12 or 15' feet total- that means the batteries need to be no more than maybe 7 feet from the unit. The manual also has recommended cable sizes for a given length.

The other thing is that the charger only charges back to the house bank, unlike a straight charger that will have 2 or 3 charging legs, one for each bank. This means that unless the start bank switch is turned on, it won't recieve a charge. This in turn means that if you forget and leave both on while inverting, you'll run both banks down.

Remember, once your engine is running, you'll have the alternator to keep both banks charged, and to keep the inverter fed with DC power. I'm putting 100+ amp alternators on each engine so the inverter can be used instead of the generator for most things while cruising.

Good luck.

 

[JV II]

Todd,
I also did all the research and evaluation on batteries. To save you some trouble, you get the most amps per dollar with lead acid, by a long shot compared to AGM or Gels. Many golf cart batteries are constructed with some glass mat to minimize shedding of the lead plates. They are constructed to resist heavy vibration. Golf cart batteries have much thicker plates and fewer of them, so the batteries will last longer over time and discharge, but for the same reason have a smaller surface area, so you won't get the burst of cranking amps. Go with the 6v batteries. There are 12V deep cycles and golf cart batteries, with the relatively same sized case as a 6V, therefore, twice the cells in the same case, smaller and thinner plates, which will not last as long over time. The 4D and 8D batteries are no major advantage in amps vs 2 smaller batteries and they weigh a ton. Each 6V battery weighs 60-70#. Think how many and where you are going to put them. If you go with an MS2000, you'll need 4-6 batteries. That will add some weight and list to your boat if all on one side.

 

[Nehalennia]

Todd,

Your 260 has two banks, correct?

My old 340 had two. The start bank, port side, is a single group 27 battery, and the house bank on the starboard side is a pair of goup 27's in parallel. I added a third bank and switch for the generator, again a single group 27. In this boat there just isn't any room to use larger batteries.

I bought a factory refirbished Xantrex Prosine 2000w inverter / charger on eBay for just under $1100. As such, it had a factory warranty. It is a true sinewave unit, so the AC current it produces is cleaner than your house. This is not needed for a hairdryer, but nice for a TV or other electronics. The control panel is a remote unit that you can mount most anywhere.

JuliaValentine is absolutely correct in that they are not ignition protected and must be installed somewhere other than the bilge. Similar to his installation, I mounted mine on the forward (cabin) side of the bulkhead.

Put some thought into it and do some homework, then the actual installation is pretty straight forward. First is that at full capacity, my unit is making about 17 amps at 120 volts. Since they are just under 90% efficient, that becomes a 180 plus amp draw on the DC (battery) side. Measure the distance between the batteries and the installed location of the inverter, and double it to get the total cable length. They recommend something like no more than 12 or 15' feet total- that means the batteries need to be no more than maybe 7 feet from the unit. The manual also has recommended cable sizes for a given length.

The other thing is that the charger only charges back to the house bank, unlike a straight charger that will have 2 or 3 charging legs, one for each bank. This means that unless the start bank switch is turned on, it won't recieve a charge. This in turn means that if you forget and leave both on while inverting, you'll run both banks down.

Remember, once your engine is running, you'll have the alternator to keep both banks charged, and to keep the inverter fed with DC power. I'm putting 100+ amp alternators on each engine so the inverter can be used instead of the generator for most things while cruising.

Good luck.

I haven't added the second bank as yet. I want to do it all in one shot.

Todd,
I also did all the research and evaluation on batteries. To save you some trouble, you get the most amps per dollar with lead acid, by a long shot compared to AGM or Gels. Many golf cart batteries are constructed with some glass mat to minimize shedding of the lead plates. They are constructed to resist heavy vibration. Golf cart batteries have much thicker plates and fewer of them, so the batteries will last longer over time and discharge, but for the same reason have a smaller surface area, so you won't get the burst of cranking amps. Go with the 6v batteries. There are 12V deep cycles and golf cart batteries, with the relatively same sized case as a 6V, therefore, twice the cells in the same case, smaller and thinner plates, which will not last as long over time. The 4D and 8D batteries are no major advantage in amps vs 2 smaller batteries and they weigh a ton. Each 6V battery weighs 60-70#. Think how many and where you are going to put them. If you go with an MS2000, you'll need 4-6 batteries. That will add some weight and list to your boat if all on one side.

Yeah I may just add 2 more 27 on the other side and go from there.

I also intend to use the two new Interstate Deep cylce 27's seen below as the starting batts and install a couple new house batteries then and inverter.

Seems like I am leaning towards a Xantrex TrueCharge 20A with a Xantrex Prosine 1800 inverter may be less. Either way it's not cheap.

I haven't had anytime in the engine compartment yet other than taking pictures, because we bought it on Dec 1 and it's been at the dealer getting a new O/D and FWC added.
Next is canvas. different thread.
Thanks in advance

 

[2000SEARAY280SS]

Todd,
From the bilge pics it looks like you have a Pro Mariner Charger installed. From your post it looks like it does not work any longer. I called Pro Mariner and they replaced mine with a newer more powerful one a 20/3 with a 30/3 for about half list price. Fits back into original location and is working just fine.

Now I am thinking about an inverter/charger upgrade. I am most likely going to go with an inverter/charger unit so that I can charge the dedicated inverter batteries while pier side on shore power. JandrewG makes a good point about alternators and the size they need to be to fill the inverter sourced batteries back up. I am not sure I want my engine alternator to handle this if the batteries have been deeply discharged. I have a choice to add a battery isolator to my starboard engine to support charging the inverter bank or… I could combine the house battery chores with the inverter battery functions and that would be supported by the existing charging configuration on my boat. . Great stuff to think about

 

[JAndrewG]

Todd,

I don't think I mentioned that my 340EC still has the factory installed Pro Mariner 50 amp charger as well. They have a reputation of quitting unexpectedly, or worse, overcharging and smoking your batteries, but mine still works fine.

You'd think that a 50 amp charger would be fine for quickly charging your batteries after using an inverter, but what I've found is that it must be rated for 50 amps total, between the three banks. In other words, it puts out maybe 17 plus amps max on a single bank. I'm pretty sure of this, as it barely keeps up with all of my 12v lighting when they're all on.

You see where I'm going here; I don't think a 20 amp charger would be nearly enough for that large inverter. Check me, but it might only put out 10 amps per bank.

Redundancy is always a nice thing, so you could install a new charger to replace the original, and install a combo inverter / charger as well. The charging side of my Xantrex puts out 100 amps, and the remote display panel tells you exactly what the input and output is at any given time.

Check too the size of the alternator. I don't know for sure what you'd have, but the older stuff was usually about 55 amps. Using a divisor of 11, that converts to about 5 amps of 120 volts ac, plenty enough to run a TV, but not a hair dryer without running your batteries down.

I know this can be overwhelming, but the learning process is fun at the same time. I even enjoy spending the money for all of it. When I actually have a little extra, that is...

 

[Nehalennia]

:smt017

Ok, now you both have me a little undecided. Since Xantrex is 15 minutes north of where I live, I'm going to go up there after the New years, or better yet spend some time at the Boat show as my main "find out what the hell I want I want to do" and then go to Xantrex and get what I need. (outlet store maybe)

 

[JAndrewG]

Yeah, the boat show will be a good place to look at stuff, and the manufacturer's booths are great for bouncing questions off of the tech guys. That's what they're there for, as opposed to the retail booths where they're trying to sell you something.

Happy New Year Todd. I'm getting out of my office in about 'two shakes' as my old man used to day, and I think I'm gonna find me some Scotch...

 

[2000SEARAY280SS]

Todd here is a post to a power point presentation on inverter/charger decision making. I found it quite helpful. It has a very down to earth approach and is pretty easy to follow.

http://www.jtbmarine.com/seminar_files/Inverter.ppt

 

[Nehalennia]

Thanks for the link Mike.
John, I hope that Scotch treated you well.

Once I get the boat back I will have to see where I have space for the extra batteries. The link's example will be way to big for what we'll need, but that system sure provides a good example of how much power you can consume quickly.

 

[skolbe]

Todd -

I had a 00' - 260 dancer - with one of the Heart Interface 3000 watt inverter/charger. It had four dedicated golf cart batteries. The 12 volts were left as is. I ran my A/C off the inverter. It would typically run for 5 to 6 hours in the heat or through the night. Batteries lasted 4 years. It was a great setup. The inverter sat under the V berth with a vent in the area. Three of the golf cart batteries were on the starboard side of the bilge and the 4th was on the port side of the bilge. For us - the inverter served us very well.

My pro mariner charger went out and I called pro mariner and they offer some good deals through customer service. Although the charger on my 320 a Charles is a better charger - the batteries don't go through a bunch of water.

 

[Nehalennia]

Todd -

I had a 00' - 260 dancer - with one of the Heart Interface 3000 watt inverter/charger. ......... Although the charger on my 320 a Charles is a better charger - the batteries don't go through a bunch of water.

Skolbe,
Thanks. Can you explain this more. Which "batteries don't go through a bunch of water"?
The ones with your new charger "Charles" :huh:

 

[skolbe]

The pro mariner on my 260 used a lot of water. I just figured it was normal. On my 320 that has a charles charger. I barely added any water all season. The pro mariner was a monthly routine of adding water.