I voted with my wallet........

so I am confused when people say the protesting is not disrespecting the American Flag or America itself.....did I somehow miss-interpret Kaepernick's own words above?....

Cliff,

How can you be confused? Colin is 29 years old and got a signing bonus of $12.5m in his last year with the SF. Of course he feels oppressed. He is dating a seriously demented, racist GF that screwed up his only comeback chance in the NFL with the Ravens by sending out a racist tweet regarding the owner and Ray Lewis.

So anyone who is really wealthy at 29 and dating a crazy has to be oppressed (ask anyone in Hollywood). I'm not sure it has anything to do with the United States of America other than that living in this country enables it.
 
"We should all aspire once in life to date a psychotic nymphomaniac no matter what the aftermath"
 
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this excerpt is from an article on CNN web site.....

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media at the outset of the controversy.

so I am confused when people say the protesting is not disrespecting the American Flag or America itself.....did I somehow miss-interpret Kaepernick's own words above?....

His protests were originally targeting police brutality and the number of black deaths at their hands. Statistics show that blacks are 2-3 times more likely to be killed. While that appears to be true the pile of white bodies is much larger than that of the blacks. Lots of people don’t know that I think. The media much prefers to report on white cops pulling the trigger on black folks, gee I wonder why.

I personally agree that there are issues in the law enforcement community that need to be addressed. Some folks would like to blame it all on racism. Yup, no doubt that’s a component but I’m disappointed to find it’s common our law enforcement agencies lack in critical things/support….budgets/funding are often lacking, insufficient training, weak hiring/selection processes that allow poor psychological matches for the job, and poor communication between agencies to the point that an officer can be dismissed because it’s felt he is absolutely unfit and a danger, yet he can go a couple counties over and get hired without them ever knowing.

I think the black community made a mistake with BLM, they separated themselves as if they’re the only ones dying. It should have been an united emphasis/push for improvement….sort of an All Lives Matter, although I wouldn’t have used that corny phrase.

In regards to an earlier posters ‘400 years of aggression’, that’s the way things were done in the past. Peoples everywhere at sometime were enslaved or horrendously abused by somebody. My ancestors were from eastern Europe, they were bought and sold like many others, in fact the word ‘slavery’ is derived from ‘slav’, the Slavic people of eastern Europe.

400-500 years ago every county that could throw some ships together headed to the west. North and South America were divvied up just like the continent of Africa, with no respect for the actual inhabitants. The Natives of the Americas can tell us about prejudice and aggression.

Can you imagine a time when there were new things to find? Everyone wants some, so you grab and try to hang on to it, sometimes you took it away from someone else….kind of a natural thing and nature isn’t always kind.

By the numbers the US was a small player in the slave trade. 20-30 times as many were brought into the Caribbean and South America, many millions as compared to about 400,000. As a kid through the sixties I for some reason thought it was just the US that did such things, later as an adult I have a better understanding of slavery aka cheap labor and it’s importance literally for thousands of years.

This, IMHO, has got to stop, we don’t have to always like each other, and we might always have some problems, but that flag is all of ours and under it we are one. http://www.theroot.com/patriotism-is-for-white-people-1818724099

Race in America reminds me of a marriage that had a wandering spouse. If you stay together, you have to forget/forgive or it’ll always be a wedge between you. A history that includes slavery and oppression is not unique to the USA but perhaps the inability to get over it is.
 
Fact! Crime brings police.
Fact! Crime is higher in minority urban areas.
Fact! The percentage of minorities residing in high crime urban areas demanding proactive policing is significantly higher than those who reside there and want the police to have a hands off approach. (A silent majority situation).
Fact! The overwhelming majority of crime committed in minority communities is committed by minorities of the same race as that population.
Fact! The overwhelming majority of police involved shootings are a result of someone either physically fighting with, threatening, or failing to comply with the lawful direction of a police officer.
Fact! Reduced interactions with the police will reduce the number of police involved shootings and the number of people sentenced to jail.
The answer? Examine the many causes of crime, take responsibility for the things you can control and address them and engage in intelligent dialogue with others to address the things you can't rather than calling people names and accusing them of being the root of all your problems.
Taking a knee, like any other empty gesture seeking personal recognition, along with violence, rioting and race baiting will not do anything to reduce crime or interactions with the police.
 
Taking a knee, like any other empty gesture seeking personal recognition, along with violence, rioting and race baiting will not do anything to reduce crime or interactions with the police.

As currently evidenced all it's doing is pissing people off and creating a greater racial divide....
 
Whoo Hoo!!! Football season is back!

I'm going to buy a couple Baltimore Charm PSLs.


Yes, I would like to sleep with some of them. Shoot me.
 
I am very encouraged by the responses I have read here. It seems like we have descended to a level where the minority can 'feel offended' and we bow to their demands. I for one will not do it. I happened to be in Miami this weekend attending a horse race to watch my aunt's horse and was shocked at the number of people that went about their business when the anthem was played. I removed my hat and stood at attention for all to see in hopes of making a statement so that maybe some would take notice.

This is a great country that affords freedoms that many now seem to take for granted. I for one will not.
 
Woody--thank you for attempting to dig into what's at the heart of the protest. The more people are willing to do so, the greater the chance all of us will someday settle into a happy marriage. I feel it's not possible yet today because, although I agree there is less oppression, it still exists. People who experience it shouldn’t have to just “get over it” and accept today’s reality; all of us should keep working to understand and improve. To use your wandering spouse metaphor: cheating once or twice or even a few times may be forgivable, but if it’s a long term habit, even if less frequent, is it still forgivable? At what point is it ok for the other spouse to say no more? At what point should the cheating spouse just stop it so forgiveness becomes unecessary?

Skibum--I will accept everything you shared at face value: you and your company use race-blind hiring and salary practices; no intentional or unintentional bias exists. Will you accept that not all employers operate in the same manner?

I happened to be in Miami this weekend attending a horse race to watch my aunt's horse and was shocked at the number of people that went about their business when the anthem was played. I removed my hat and stood at attention for all to see in hopes of making a statement so that maybe some would take notice.
For those boycotting the NFL....will you also boycott horse racing?

And right here folks is a large part of the problem. Someone thinking they can tell me what I can or cannot say.
Not ok for someone to tell you what you can or cannot say, but ok to tell the NFL and its sponsors to silence the protestors? (It may come as a surprise to some on this forum that I applaud voting with your wallets, because money really does talk. I just happen to find it humorously hypocritical in some cases.)
 
Not ok for someone to tell you what you can or cannot say, but ok to tell the NFL and its sponsors to silence the protestors? (It may come as a surprise to some on this forum that I applaud voting with your wallets, because money really does talk. I just happen to find it humorously hypocritical in some cases.)

When your employees decide to do things that will in the end, damage or destroy the business, yes, they can fire them or introduce rules baring them from activities that piss the paying customers off.

Remember the first amendment protects you from reprisals from the government.

I don't go to concerts to pay to hear the political views of bands or performers. If they want to go on Entertainment tonight and piss and moan, more power to them, that's on their time and their dime. Same goes for the NFL or any other sports league.
 
For those boycotting the NFL....will you also boycott horse racing?

That would depend. Are the people at the horse race trying to push an agenda on my dime?

Fact! Crime brings police.
Fact! Crime is higher in minority urban areas.
Fact! The percentage of minorities residing in high crime urban areas demanding proactive policing is significantly higher than those who reside there and want the police to have a hands off approach. (A silent majority situation).
Fact! The overwhelming majority of crime committed in minority communities is committed by minorities of the same race as that population.
Fact! The overwhelming majority of police involved shootings are a result of someone either physically fighting with, threatening, or failing to comply with the lawful direction of a police officer.
Fact! Reduced interactions with the police will reduce the number of police involved shootings and the number of people sentenced to jail.
The answer? Examine the many causes of crime, take responsibility for the things you can control and address them and engage in intelligent dialogue with others to address the things you can't rather than calling people names and accusing them of being the root of all your problems.
Taking a knee, like any other empty gesture seeking personal recognition, along with violence, rioting and race baiting will not do anything to reduce crime or interactions with the police.

[sarcasm]
Yes, all that is true, but your facts regretfully don't fit with the current narrative, so those facts must be dismissed.
[/sarcasm]

The best way to minimize bad run-ins with the police, is to not engage in activities that result in run-ins with the police. And if you should have a run in - dont resist and follow any lawful orders given to you by the police. That way, in the overwhelming, vast majority of cases, everyone gets to see their loved ones again.

That being said, to Woody's point about bad cops, it is most certainly a problem that they can just go to the next city and get hired. I' love to see this get addressed. In our area, we have had a few officers 'resign' and move one town over and after another 'incident' you get to find out through public records that he should have never been hired in the first place.

Poor decision making can have very bad ramifications. And that goes for both sides.
 
For those boycotting the NFL....will you also boycott horse racing?

The horse racing incident mentioned was not an intentional protest but rather arrogant indifference.

The best way to minimize bad run-ins with the police, is to not engage in activities that result in run-ins with the police.

In a perfect world that would be ideal and then we wouldn't need policing. But we all know that is never going to happen. There will always be those willing to take the chance in breaking the laws for personal gain. And because of that, the police will confront suspects....of all color. And some of those suspects will resist or disobey the commands of the police. And some of those that choose to disobey may make a move or gesture perceived as a threat to the well-being of the cop. Some of the cops will choose deadly force as the reaction to the threat. Some with better honed abilities may choose an alternative method.

It should be said here that all of the police go through the same training....basically Testing from the training is not pass or fail, there is an allowable amount of "wrong" in the final exams. Some are just better at it than others. Here's an example.... Woody and I take the same course on rebuilding Mercruiser outdrives. We both take the final exam. He scores 100% correct of all questions; I score 85%....still a passing grade. We both get hired to work on Merc outdrives as there is a shortage of qualified techs. But I will never be as good as Woody. But then again, maybe I will with experience. Maybe Woody gets in trouble with his company because while he is a really smart and well-trained tech, he has a bad temper with a short fuse. And while assembling a u-joint on an old Alpha drive it just refuses to go back together. Woody gets pissed and throws the drive in the dumpster. Me, on the other hand, just have to work a bit slower to get things done but being a patient person I have more compassion and understanding with unruly outdrives. I may not get work out as fast as Woody but I don't get pissed and yell at customers.

The point?.... We're humans and even though all cops have the same training not all cops handle a similar situation in the same manner. Some police handle a life/death situation with outward calmness while others get agitated and irritated. Maybe someone will come up with a better method of non-lethal restraint and deterrence in the near future but something that will render the suspect totally immobile with no after effects. "Phasers on stun."

I have heard folks say that our method of policing needs to be changed. Okay....to what? Everyone says change is needed but without offering a viable solution, one becomes part of the problem and not the solution.

To all of these protesters....and I mean all, BLM, athletes, celebrities, etc....unless you have a solution shut the hell up and go about your business. You are not making things better.
 
The point?.... We're humans and even though all cops have the same training not all cops handle a similar situation in the same manner.

Shawn, I definitely get and agree with your point. But the reality is, to use you analogy, some people are just not meant to be Mercruiser mechanics. They don't fix things regardless of time.

In the two cases that stick out in my mind in the Cleveland area from the last few years, one officer was allowed to resign after incidents with other officers and was described by his supervisor as being "Weepy and unstable". He was then hired by the Cleveland police and within a year did something that made the national news. He should have never been hired.
A second officer had enough complaints against him that he also was allowed/forced to resign. Shortly after that he made the national news.

It's got to be one of the toughest jobs on the planet right now and not everyone is cut out for it.
God bless those that are and watch out for us.
 
I feel it's not possible yet today because, although I agree there is less oppression, it still exists. People who experience it shouldn’t have to just “get over it” and accept today’s reality; all of us should keep working to understand and improve.

So... How is someone like myself, who is not a racist, who treats both genders and all races equally at all times supposed to fit into this puzzle? In theory, the answer to the problem is to make all of the racists behave exactly as I do. Problem solved. No more racism. So now how come I, as the 'model citizen' still get accused of white privilege? Once that happens, now I am forced into a discussion about race. The entire topic which I was so happily ignoring in the past is now a forced issue to what end? Now you turned me into someone who has to either take accusations and not defend myself which makes me a racist by forfeit (because there is nothing to defend), or defend those accusations by arguing, which makes me appear to be at least to some degree, a racist (because we've been told that disagreeing with the premise is racist). Now, you've created racism out of thin air. Obviously the wrong approach.

Skibum--I will accept everything you shared at face value: you and your company use race-blind hiring and salary practices; no intentional or unintentional bias exists. Will you accept that not all employers operate in the same manner?
No, I'm sorry that I can't. Any company larger than a small family business has to fill out quarterly EEO reports and send them in. Hence my retention of meticulous records of everything related to my interactions with non males, non whites, and those afflicted with gender identity issues. American companies simply couldn't get away with it if they wanted to, no matter how much they tried to cover their tracks. It's not possible. People that I've met who own or hire people for even the smallest of businesses are fearful of any accusations to the contrary, so they employ reverse racism by ensuring that they have a minority and/or a female on their staff at all times, or at least often enough to provide cover in the event of an accusation. Only single employee companies could get away with it as it would likely never be noticed by the government(s), either local, state, or federal.

For those boycotting the NFL....will you also boycott horse racing?
Absolutely. Disrespecting our flag, country, morality, or making false accusations of racism will make you lose my business in a heartbeat. Ask Hollywood, Kellogg and Target about that.

Not ok for someone to tell you what you can or cannot say, but ok to tell the NFL and its sponsors to silence the protestors?
You are missing the point. We have no problem with people expressing their displeasure as long as it remains civil. Teams take the field for practice before going back to the locker room and suiting up for the game. I'd have no issue if they protested then. After the Anthem is over, teams huddle up for their pre-coin toss pep talk. I'd have no issue if they protested then. They have plenty of time after the game. I'd have no issue if they protested then. The point is that by using the Anthem as a protest they are equally attacking people who are actual racists, people who don't have a racist bone in their bodies, as well as large swaths of patriotic, proud Americans of all races and both genders. They are missing the actual target that they are trying to hit and the people who are innocent bystanders are getting pissed. The actual targets get to join in with the non targets, and the entire protest becomes a waste of time. Leftist protesters don't seem to understand that their voices actually get diminished (meaning get less attention) as soon a the first window is broken, the first fire is lit, the first person gets hit, or the first act happens that disgusts the majority of people who see it. Failed tactics.

Our education system has been filling students heads with a victimhood mentality that conditions them to believe that they cannot succeed because someone is actively trying to hold them back. This allows them to instill the belief that they have no chance without a huge bureaucracy fighting for them. They simply can't do without the government "fixing" all that is wrong with their lives, so they will support politicians that wish to implement the most draconian of policies designed to control how people think and act. White privilege is used to instill victimhood in one group and guilt in another so that the government can attain more power. Being accused of it pisses off non racists, and allows racists to blend in with the non racists. Minorities are whipped into a frenzy, and the the ruling class is laughing their asses off watching the chaos, knowing that they get to continue life as usual. See? Antifa and whatever they are protesting this week. They were concocted by the ruling class, funded by Soros, with problems to be fixed by the ruling class. Chaos provides them the cover they need to stay in the ruling class.

Turning racism into an "it's here, everyone does it (except if you are black), you must feel guilty even if you are white and not a racist" every day all the time is a losing tactic. It dilutes the argument, and provides cover for the people who actually deserve the label (like crying wolf, sooner or later it stops working). The charge of racism needs to be used when appropriate, and ONLY when appropriate. Expose real examples of it consistently enough, and the message will be received. Overused, the message will not be heard.

What I've heard some black people describe a racism, are things us white people think are just normal everyday "life is hard" things. We don't get every job, opportunity, or fortune of life. No one does. Except Bll Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg.

I hope this helps you understand.
 
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I invested a career in law enforcement in defending the Constitution and protecting my community without regard to race or religion or political affiliation. I witnessed police officers uphold laws correctly time and time again and get spit on for their efforts; I also witnessed them being treated with great respect at times. I know great officers, good officers, and some lousy officers. Most officers I've met are unsung heroes to me. I've buried friends who have been killed in the line of duty. I worked Internal Affairs for several years and participated in charging/firing officers that betrayed their oath and community. I don't like what I see unfolding in this great country. To me, the U.S. flag is a representation of the promise of opportunity for all in America, it is the protection of one's right to protest the government, and it should be respected always. The NFL is off the rails. I won't watch another second of NFL football until they get their shit together - they have a right to protest, I suppose, and I exercise my right to tune them out. God Bless the men and women that fought for my right to post these comments on a public forum.

Thank you for your service. I know in my heart that 99.9% of our finest do their job & do it well, regardless of what these clowns in the MSM want to report or what Sports figures want to exploit.

Plain & simple, I am done with the NFL this year. I can find better things to do with my time. Plus, the Admiral will be happier.
 
So... How is someone like myself, who is not a racist, who treats both genders and all races equally at all times supposed to fit into this puzzle? In theory, the answer to the problem is to make all of the racists behave exactly as I do. Problem solved. No more racism. So now how come I, as the 'model citizen' still get accused of white privilege?



.
Funny you mentioned that. Living in a majority liberal neighborhood, we had a Winter Progressive Block Party a few years ago. It started at my house. One of the neighbors had a little to much to drink. This was the start of the 'White Privilege' phrase.
The long of the short, she started in on how we are all suppose to feel guilty because of our white privilege & how we as white US citizens have oppressed black people because of our privilege. WTF? So, our other neighbor, who immigrated to the US from Germany 17 years ago asked; "What does that have to do with me - am I not white also?"

..and there it is.
 
The ignorance and White Privilege here is astounding.
Unless you are a person of color and have had your culture suffer under 400 years of government sponsored oppression, STFU.
Every one of these players is practicing THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. So you don't agree with them and you want them FIRED?
Again, step on their First Amendment rights, just like the dictator in the White House who said they should be fired for being an American with Rights. I'm done here.
WOW! You sir, are missing the point!
(plus I just wanted this rant preserved in a quote)
 
I firmly believe in the cause, it's just the delivery methods with which I have problems. The National Anthem at a sporting event is not the place to protest.

I personally agree that there are issues in the law enforcement community that need to be addressed.
  1. Ticket Quotas
  2. Qualified Immunity
  3. The Thin Blue Line
  4. Policing For Profit
  5. Department Transparency
  6. Officer Complaint Process
  7. Police Militarization
  8. Driver License Checkpoints
  9. Racial Profiling
  10. Tazers
Ticket quotas force police into the poorest areas to achieve their goals. The financially challenged can't afford a lawyer or miss a day of work to fight the ticket. It's not the officer's fault he's forced this way, it's just what he needs to do to keep his job and pay his bills. The fallout from this practice is a larger divide between the police and it's citizens.
Solution: Remove Ticket Quotas

Qualified immunity protects police officers from civil lawsuits. Officers know that if for some reason they need to cross the line to achieve their goals they will be protected. If found to be in the wrong during a trial, the city will absorb the bill for the misconduct.
Solution: Force police to carry their own insurance against misconduct. If found guilty, their insurance company pays the damages. Once the officer is found guilty of misconduct on more than a few occasions the insurance will cancel his policy and he'll no longer be able to work as an officer.

The Thin Blue Line is in my humble opinion the biggest problem with law enforcement. It forces good officers to remain silent when they see questionable behavior from other bad officers. We all know there are bad and good officers on any police force but if the good officers say nothing about the bad officers how can anyone expect accountability.
Solution: Levy the same punishment against all officers involved. If four officers show up to a scene and three of them watch another beat a handcuffed suspect, they should all receive the same punishment as the one who did the beating.

Policing For Profit or civil asset forfeiture allows law enforcement to seize assets from a citizen if suspected of criminal activity. The citizen only needs to be suspected, no charges need to be filed against the citizen. The state keeps the seized property and forces the citizen to prove the assets were not part of any illegal activity. If proven successfully the assets are returned, but only after a lengthy court battle.
Solution: Either ban civil asset forfeiture completely or force law enforcement to arrest and charge anyone they believe to have illegally obtained assets and follow due process.

Department Transparency is another big problem with today's policing. Police don't want to be recorded while performing in their official capacity. Public record requests go unanswered or are denied, evidence is lost, body cameras and microphones are turned off to conceal evidence. "We have investigated ourselves and found that we have done nothing wrong".
Solution: Implement an independent review committee made up of citizens and police to review all cases where police misconduct is suspected.

The Officer Complaint Process in some jurisdictions is plagued with officer intimidation, unnecessary paperwork or is just non existent in other smaller municipalities.
Solution: Remove the complaint process from the hands of the police.

Police Militarization can be seen in across America. Heavy armored vehicles, tactical gear, drones and other military equipment consistently makes its way to the police forces. As police become more militarized they drift further and further from the citizens they are supposed to protect.
Solution: Return the equipment to the military. Outfit one group (S.W.A.T.) with said military equipment and call for them when needed. Return the police to their proper status as civil servants instead of soldiers.

Driver License Checkpoints are nothing more than revenue generators for the state. The police are stopping vehicles without reasonable suspicion of criminal activity which goes against the 4th Amendment regarding search and seizure.
Solution: Add specific scope to the checkpoint. If the scope of the checkpoint is to see if everyone has a license then only those without a license can be ticketed. If the driver has a license he is free to go even if he has a headlight out or wasn't wearing a seat belt.

Racial Profiling or "Driving While Black" has been around forever. It's time it stopped. I believe this is the very thing at the heart of the protests.
Solution: Unfortunately I have no easy answer. This has been an age old dilemma and I feel it's nowhere near a turning point which is so sad in 2017.

Tazers have done nothing but provide law enforcement with a compliance tool. It was designed as a way to stop a criminal without having to shoot them, but it's turned into more of a compliance tool for today's law enforcement. Tazers are used to remove people from assemblies, pull drivers from their cars, subdue handcuffed suspects and a host of other uses for which it was not intended.
Solution: Ban the tazer completely from ALL police departments.
 
This whole anthem discussion had nothing to do with race. It was about disrespecting the American flag and our anthem. Funny how watching all of the highlights from last Sunday a large portion of those kneeling were white yet the media wants to portray this as a black issue. I spent a few years in law enforcement and my step-son is currently a police officer in a larger city. I I don't care what color your skin is. A few years ago my step-son, who works in a predominately black city, shot a guy. Guess what, he was white. He had a gun and didn't obey commands and pointed it at my step-son so he did what he had to do. I can promise you that in 99% of all police shootings that race was not a factor.

Tazers are a great tool. Are they used excessively? Possibly. But it is better than the next step. Look at the use of force continuum. Granted they vary by department but by and large they are very similar (disclaimer-I am not an attorney so don't take this as legal advice).
1) uniformed presence
2) verbal commands
3) less than lethal options (tazers, OC spray, etc)
4) hands on
5) lethal force

The use of force continuum says you can only escalate to one step higher than you are faced with. Before tazers it was hands on and if that failed it often ended in lethal force. There are several steps along the way where a bad guy has the option to comply so it doesn't escalate any higher. Can you go from step 1 instantly to step 5? Absolutely. But the bad guy is the one that has to initiate that move.

Bottom line is this, in 99.9% of all cases if the suspect complies then nobody gets hurt. If you feel you are falsely accused then you will have your day in court. The time to fight your case isn't in the street in the middle of the night. Best case scenario you will go to jail for resisting arrest. Worst case you end up on the news and somebody leaves in a body bag.

The use of force continuum puts the police in a reactionary position and they have a split second to make that decision. Unfortunately sometimes they get it wrong but they weren't the ones that escalated it to that scenario. The best way to avoid this is to comply with their commands. The unfortunate fact is that many kids today (regardless of race) have been brought up to challenge authority and many show no respect to anyone, including (and especially) police.

Are there bad apples? Of course. It is human nature that there will be some police with their own agenda but that is a small percentage and even then if you comply chances are you will live to see another day.

Go back and watch the videos. In 100% of all cases the suspect did not obey commands, right or wrong.
 
Tazers have done nothing but provide law enforcement with a compliance tool. It was designed as a way to stop a criminal without having to shoot them, but it's turned into more of a compliance tool for today's law enforcement. Tazers are used to remove people from assemblies, pull drivers from their cars, subdue handcuffed suspects and a host of other uses for which it was not intended.



When people do not obey lawful orders bad things happen.
Do you really think you should just be able to ignore lawful orders and nothing should happen to you?
What is your solution for people who violently resist arrest as this is the genesis of a majority of complaints.

but it's turned into more of a compliance tool for today's law enforcement.
Yes. But, if you comply with lawful orders, the odds of getting tazed go down dramatically!
 
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