I voted with my wallet........

I am waiting for one of them to articulate what the hell they are protesting.
 
read this article if you think the protestors have a 'constitutional right' to voice their concerns during the National Anthem at a NFL game......

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/opinions/first-amendment-football-protest-callan-opinion/index.html

cliff

Yeah, you can even test this next week at work - So for all of us corporate professionals, let's say we "take a knee" at the next company town hall to protest whatever our personal issue is, or maybe an email to the whole company - let's all report back on how that worked out. I'll give you a hint, your going to have a lot more time for boating.
 
This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. I find it surprising these players don't understand why there is so much push back to this protest. There is a time and a place for any protest. Protesting the flag of the United States and the national anthem before a sporting contest is not it. The majority of Americans are very proud of our country and our flag as are the citizens of other countries around the globe as it relates to their national symbols. If a group wants to protest the very thing that is held so near and dear to the majority our citizens, they should understand that not only will they get push back, their protest may ultimately be ignored or dismissed due to the anger and frustration generated by it. What is even more frustrating in this instance, is that most of these professional athletes don't truly understand what it means to be oppressed. Most of them are excellent examples of the opportunities this great nation has allowed them to earn. The opportunities were there and they seized them. I applaud that.
Some quick facts:
  1. The 4-year minimum base salaries for players in this year's draft are as follows: $465,000 (Year 1), $540,000 (Year 2), $615,000 (Year 3), $690,000 (Year 4)
  2. That means a 22 or 23 year old kid entering the NFL will earn more than the majority of US citizens will ever earn in a given year.
  3. At the start of the 2014 season, NFL surveys revealed that the league was approximately 68% African-American and about 28% white, with the remaining 4% comprising Asian/Pacific Islander, non-white Hispanics, and those preferring a Mixed Race category.
In business and personal life, I have learned over the years to pick my battles. I submit this is a bad battle to pick. I for one hold Sundays as my one day to enjoy activities with my family and relax. One of those activities is watching football. I have always been an avid football fan but this is something I refuse to allow to infiltrate my Sunday afternoon of relaxation. If this continues, the NFL will loose a significant portion of their fan base. Fans = $$ to not only the NFL as an entity, but the very players who may stand to lose if the pool of dollars decrease.

I love my country and our flag. I appreciate every opportunity that has been afforded to me and I thank every member of our armed forces, past and present for their sacrifices that allow our freedoms.
 
The ignorance and White Privilege here is astounding.
Unless you are a person of color and have had your culture suffer under 400 years of government sponsored oppression, STFU.
Every one of these players is practicing THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. So you don't agree with them and you want them FIRED?
Again, step on their First Amendment rights, just like the dictator in the White House who said they should be fired for being an American with Rights. I'm done here.

I'll say this again.... It's no longer about their right to protest or the reason of the protest....It's the method they chose to initiate the protest. Kaepernick, clearly a moron, chose a poor method to deliver his message. When you want to win people to your side of an issue you should try and win them over, not piss them off. There were/are better methods of protest that would garner support rather than ire.

Now to the issue....people of color throw that 400 years of oppression around and it's gotten old. We all agree Blacks were mistreated. But there has been change, significant change, in the past 400 years. I'm assuming you are a person of color or at least you seem to be representing them here....answer this for me, what can't you currently do that a white person can? What rights does a white person have that you don't? Where are you not allowed to go that a white person can? What job does a white person have that a black person can't? I'm really curious as to what equal rights Blacks want that they are not getting. Because the perception to us White Privileged is that Blacks don't want equal rights....they want special rights. They want the right to not submit to the police when ordered, the right to loot during natural disasters such as our recent hurricanes, the right to say, "I was fired because I'm black" and ignore that they may have been fired because they were incapable of performing the duties of the job. The perception is that this goes beyond the desire for equal rights.

Ironically, my next door neighbor agrees with all I have just said....he and I have had this discussion. He holds a high-level Director position with the state of Louisiana. Oh....I almost forgot, he and his wife are Black. Because he agrees with me about the athletes is that White Privilege? Or ignorance? And he has chosen to not watch his beloved Saints until, "....these idiots come to their senses." His statement, not mine.

It's not that people are not sympathetic to the cause, it's the delivery message chosen that causes the negative reaction rather than sympathy. And I won't even get started on the media, including social media, that escalates this issue and every race issue because it's newsworthy and they can make money on it. You want to go after someone that exploits the rights of Blacks? Go after the media.
 
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Read the amendment.

States that the Government will not interfere with a persons right to free speech.

The first amendment does not cover the employer/employee relationship. Has been tested in court.

An employer can impose rules about what an employee says or does in the performance of the duties of their employment.

On the field, in uniform, professional athletes are bound to the rules established for their employment.

Seems pretty clear, professional athlete's are bound to their employer.

There is a point about whether NFL players can disrespect the county that gives them this opportunity.

But it is not the First Amendment. It is the rules by the employer.

The NFL and or the owners have legal standing to declare a no kneel rule. At this point they choose not to - they are trying to thread the needle of keeping their employees in a good mood and keeping their entertainment product viable.

Was telling today when the Wall Street Journal had the article about Direct TV. If someone wants to cancel their NFL package - and they mention Kneeling as the reason - Direct TV will refund the amount paid.

Do you think DirectTV has gotten a few phone calls? Did they come up with this on their own? Or is this the pressure of the market?
 
"This isn't about race, this is about a complete disrespect of the flag and all of those that fought and died for this flag and this country." E.

This is from my best friend, brother, godfather to both my girls. Ex Marine M.P., Ex Baltimore Colt due to injury. Currently working with Fire and Rescue. One of the biggest Black men I know. He'd give you the shirt off his back. His mom didn't teach him about the color of his skin, she taught him to respect and kindness to others. When my mother passed she stepped right in and I love her to this day. Like him, I don't see color. Never have and never will!

Our government can't fix these issues. Disrespect of the flag will only deepen the divide. "We, the people" can only fix these issues.
 
I find it interesting that I posted this on three boating forums and each has run 2-3 pages of responses and two of the forums had one person each who disagreed with me, the third forum nobody disagreed.

One of the people who disagreed with me tends to disagree with everything I post simply because I'm a centrist when it comes to political issues and he's so far left he's beyond anyone I've ever met. Most of the people on that forum tend to discount what he says because he's such a disagreeable old cuss.

I think the solution to this "take a knee" thing in the NFL is for each of us to stop watching games and suggest to friends and relatives that they do the same. Once the TV viewing audience falls off the chart and game ticket sales start to drop the owners (and the NFL) will take note.

Only then will something happen.
 
The ignorance and White Privilege here is astounding.
Unless you are a person of color and have had your culture suffer under 400 years of government sponsored oppression, STFU.
Every one of these players is practicing THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. So you don't agree with them and you want them FIRED?
Again, step on their First Amendment rights, just like the dictator in the White House who said they should be fired for being an American with Rights. I'm done here.
Hmmm, you don't have to leave. We ain't making you leave, see you're just hurtin' yourself by leaving.

Heck I'm not leaving, even after being called ignorant and told to STFU. I am a little offended though. NorCal Boater is wondering if you might be black, or maybe your just representing them but it don't make any difference to me.

See, the way I was taught is that an a$$hole is an a$$hole and skin color don't change that.
 
#1 - The phrase "white privilege" is in and of itself, a racial slur.

#2 - If there is such a thing as "white privilege", it is being able to get through most days without thinking about your own race or the race of others until someone throws it in your face that you are a racist because you don't give a hoot about other people's race.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

I won't take it from people that don't know me, and those that do would never say it to me.
 
Remember, many products you buy also sponsor the NFL. I started sending emails to companies that sponsor the NFL, I won't be buying their products any longer.
I am shopping for a new car for the wife. One of the vehicles I looked at was the Infiniti QX60. Then I saw a Steph Curry (Champion Golden State Warrioirs- NBA) ad for that brand. Until he dissed the office of the POTUS, I really had nothing against him & liked watching him. Now? I'm off that brand. I will be letting them know as well. It would be great if there was a list of the NFL sponsors because I'd like to share my displeasure with their affiliation & my future shopping habits that will NOT include their products as well.
 
White girl here, and I agree, SloBurn. I had to learn to recognize my white privilege, it becomes clearer in different ways as I keep reading and thinking and talking to others, and I know I'm not finished learning.

What's already crystal clear, however, is although the US has made great progress, we could make greater progress much faster if a lot more of us white folks could see the unintentional biases in which we're wrapped so comfortably they're like a second skin. Take a step back and stop dismissing others' concerns arbitrarily because "my black friends don't have those issues," "my black friends agree with me," "I'm military/LEO/<insert whatever here> and I don't discriminate" or "my friends/family are military/LEO/<insert whatever here> and don't discriminate." Just because one person or a group of people doesn't see it or feel it doesn't mean it doesn't exist--and IMO this type of denial is one of our biggest problems.

I’ve seen compelling data that, given equivalent resumes, people of color--or even those who seem to be people of color--may be hired and/or salaried and/or promoted at lower rates than white counterparts. (One example is a 2010 study by Marianne Bertrand and Sendhil Mullainathan.)

I’ve seen compelling data that, in a state that implemented a point system in an effort to apply sentencing more consistently, and given equivalent crimes, blacks continue to experience higher conviction rates and/or longer sentences than whites. It’s occurred in more than .001%, .01%, or even 1% of cases….and has meant 30%, 45%, even 300% longer sentences. (One example is a Herald-Tribune review of Florida court clerk and Department of Corrections records.) If you’re the person on the receiving end of that treatment, it doesn’t matter that it isn’t happening at all in the next city over, or is happening less in the next county over—the point is it shouldn’t be happening, period.

Acknowledging such problems exist doesn't automatically denigrate every employer or judge that has ever existed and operated in a fair and equitable way, nor does it erase the positive progress we've made in so many ways, but that seems to be how some take it, which fuels an incredible level of personal offense and outrage It simply means bringing the problems to the fore so we can continue that progress.

Consider this completely unrelated example: a high school student is taking six courses. The student earns an A in four classes, a C in one, and an F in the last. Do the student's parents ignore the C and the F to acknowledge and celebrate only the higher grades? Mine certainly wouldn’t have! Does the student's school throw out the C and the F and award the student an A overall? Doubtful. The parents and the school--and the student--have every reason to celebrate the high grades. AND they have an opportunity to support the student in improving the lower ones.

So it should be within our communities--we should celebrate the individuals, organizations, and institutions doing well, while also recognizing and improving those not doing as well. Successful, accomplished, thoughtful "spoiled brats" like Colin Kaepernick are trying to do just that by using their public platforms to shine light on the darker parts of our communities.

Perhaps those who say they haven't heard any of the protesters articulate their reasons for taking the knee aren't listening....or are dismissing their reasons as unimportant.

The Star Spangled Banner describes "the land of the free."
The Pledge of Allegiance describes "liberty and justice for all."
Why is it this hard for some to accept there are large numbers of people within the US who don't experience the same freedom, liberty, and justice as others among us, solely because of their race and not because of anything they’ve done wrong?




I hope all can find some humor in Trevor Noah’s take on it, and perhaps some can find one or two good questions to ponder.

 
White girl here, and I agree, SloBurn. I had to learn to recognize my white privilege, it becomes clearer in different ways as I keep reading and thinking and talking to others, and I know I'm not finished learning.

What's already crystal clear, however, is although the US has made great progress, we could make greater progress much faster if a lot more of us white folks could see the unintentional biases in which we're wrapped so comfortably they're like a second skin. Take a step back and stop dismissing others' concerns arbitrarily because "my black friends don't have those issues," "my black friends agree with me," "I'm military/LEO/<insert whatever here> and I don't discriminate" or "my friends/family are military/LEO/<insert whatever here> and don't discriminate." Just because one person or a group of people doesn't see it or feel it doesn't mean it doesn't exist--and IMO this type of denial is one of our biggest problems.

I’ve seen compelling data that, given equivalent resumes, people of color--or even those who seem to be people of color--may be hired and/or salaried and/or promoted at lower rates than white counterparts. (One example is a 2010 study by Marianne Bertrand and Sendhil Mullainathan.)

I’ve seen compelling data that, in a state that implemented a point system in an effort to apply sentencing more consistently, and given equivalent crimes, blacks continue to experience higher conviction rates and/or longer sentences than whites. It’s occurred in more than .001%, .01%, or even 1% of cases….and has meant 30%, 45%, even 300% longer sentences. (One example is a Herald-Tribune review of Florida court clerk and Department of Corrections records.) If you’re the person on the receiving end of that treatment, it doesn’t matter that it isn’t happening at all in the next city over, or is happening less in the next county over—the point is it shouldn’t be happening, period.

Acknowledging such problems exist doesn't automatically denigrate every employer or judge that has ever existed and operated in a fair and equitable way, nor does it erase the positive progress we've made in so many ways, but that seems to be how some take it, which fuels an incredible level of personal offense and outrage It simply means bringing the problems to the fore so we can continue that progress.

Consider this completely unrelated example: a high school student is taking six courses. The student earns an A in four classes, a C in one, and an F in the last. Do the student's parents ignore the C and the F to acknowledge and celebrate only the higher grades? Mine certainly wouldn’t have! Does the student's school throw out the C and the F and award the student an A overall? Doubtful. The parents and the school--and the student--have every reason to celebrate the high grades. AND they have an opportunity to support the student in improving the lower ones.

So it should be within our communities--we should celebrate the individuals, organizations, and institutions doing well, while also recognizing and improving those not doing as well. Successful, accomplished, thoughtful "spoiled brats" like Colin Kaepernick are trying to do just that by using their public platforms to shine light on the darker parts of our communities.

Perhaps those who say they haven't heard any of the protesters articulate their reasons for taking the knee aren't listening....or are dismissing their reasons as unimportant.

The Star Spangled Banner describes "the land of the free."
The Pledge of Allegiance describes "liberty and justice for all."
Why is it this hard for some to accept there are large numbers of people within the US who don't experience the same freedom, liberty, and justice as others among us, solely because of their race and not because of anything they’ve done wrong?




I hope all can find some humor in Trevor Noah’s take on it, and perhaps some can find one or two good questions to ponder.


I take issue with this post.

Two reasons. First - the thread is not about race. It is about perspectives on disrespecting the Flag and the national anthem. That is not a race issue.

Second the statements about white privilege.

Look at admissions policies into universities - there is decided "black privilege"

Look at hiring quota's.

Look at doing business with public sector.

Look at the 8A federal program.

I did not raise the issue. You did. But don't start talking about "white privilege".

There is a time in our history where we did treat people who were not white with extreme disadvantage. I get that. And for a long time the system has bent over backwards to swing the pendulum the other way.

Treating people differently because of the color of their skin is wrong. But when we get into a "white privilege" or "black privilege" discussion, or when we raise the topic we are adding to the problem not solving it.

The generations following us understand this much better than we do. Young kids are free of the default judgment based on skin color that preceded them.

The very fact that someone wants to take positions based on skin color is wrong. Valid argument in the 60's - but if we don't turn loose of that argument - we are not moving forward.

The continual classification by color of skin just perpetuatse the problem. Move past the color of skin.

The fact that I am so outspoken on this topic may be my ruin. But this topic is not about race. Don't bring it in. Start a new thread.

The group may kick me out over this post. I tend to say what I think.

I accept the pendulum swinging past center to offer advantages to non-white population. This is a group which has experienced true disadvantages. But don't bring up white privilege - that is a non starter with me.

Ok, rant over. Calming down some. Will now try to just focus on lines, marinas, and the boats we love.

Mark
 
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The ignorance and White Privilege here is astounding.
Unless you are a person of color and have had your culture suffer under 400 years of government sponsored oppression, STFU.

And right here folks is a large part of the problem. Someone thinking they can tell me what I can or cannot say.
 
TAKE A KNEE


Take a little trip to Valley Forge in January. If you don't know where that is, just Google it from the sidelines. Hold a musket ball in your fingers and imagine it piercing your flesh and breaking a bone or two. There won't be a doctor or trainer to assist you until after the battle, so just wait your turn. Take your cleats and socks off to get a real experience. Then take a knee.

Then, take one at the beach in Normandy where man after American man stormed the beach, even as the one in front of him was shot to pieces...the very sea stained with American blood. The only blockers most had were the dead bodies in front of them, riddled with bullets from enemy fire.

Take a knee in the sweat soaked jungles of Vietnam. from Khe San to Saigon... Anywhere will do. REAL Americans died in all those jungles. There was no playbook that told them what was next, but they knew what flag they represented. When they came home, they were protested as well..and spit on for reasons only cowards know.

Take another knee in the blood drenched sands of Fallujah in 110 degree heat... Wear your Kevlar helmet and battle dress... Your number won't be printed on it unless your number is up! You'll need to stay hydrated but there won't be anyone to squirt Gatorade into your mouth. You're on your own.

There's a lot of places to take a knee. Real Americans have given their lives all over the world. When you use the banner under which they fought as a source for your displeasure, you dishonor the memories of those who bled for the very freedoms you have. That's what the red stripes mean. It represents the blood of those who spilled a sea of it defending your liberty.

While you're on your knee, pray for those that came before you, not on a manicured lawn striped and printed with numbers to announce every inch of ground taken...but on nameless hills and bloodied beaches and sweltering forests and bitter cold mountains...every inch marked by an American life lost serving that flag you protest.

No cheerleaders, no announcers, no coaches, no fans...just American men and women...delivering the real fight against those who chose to harm us...blazing a path so you would have 'the right to take a knee.'

You haven't an inkling what it took to get you where you are; but your 'protest' is duly noted. Not only is it disgraceful to a nation of real heroes, it serves the purpose of pointing to your ingratitude for those who chose to defend you under that banner that will still wave long after your jersey is issued to another...

If you really feel the need to take a knee, come with me to church on Sunday and we'll both kneel before Almighty God. We'll thank Him for preserving this country for as long as He has. We'll beg forgiveness for our ingratitude for all He has provided us. We'll appeal to Him for understanding and wisdom. We'll pray for liberty and justice for all...because He is the one who provides those things.

And there will be no protest. There will only be gratitude for His provision and a plea for His continued grace and mercy on the land of the free and the home of the brave It goes like this...

"GOD BLESS AMERICA!"

Ted Nugent
 
...Every one of these players is practicing THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

So you really dont understand the first amendment and what it protects you from do you?

.....I'm done here.

As well you should be. Angry and ignorant is no way to go through life.
 
And right here folks is a large part of the problem. Someone thinking they can tell me what I can or cannot say.

Yep. And here is a bigger part of the problem. We have a part of America that says it's OK to disrespect the flag and our country and want to use their employer to impose their beliefs on the rest of us, but yet that same group wants to shut down someone such as a cake baker for standing up for their beliefs.
 
So what Mark wrote got me thinking this morning..... out of 122 Professional Sports teams (NFL, NBA, MBL, and the NHL) only one owner is black. Yet in the case of of the NBA and NFL 80% of the players are black. That is interesting because we wonder why "white privileged" NFL owners are supporting a protest method that offends what most Americans believe.

Why would they cater to their players (who cost them millions) rather than the fans (that give them billions)? It doesn't make business sense since there is a greater supply of players than available positions. Perhaps they underestimated fan reaction or they overestimated a bonding ritual with their players. In either case, they bet wrong.

Our history is riddled with good intentions ending up in the wrong place. People who use the the divisive terms white privilege or black privilege seek to push their own agenda. I believe the owners and professional athletes of the NFL and the NBA have simply lost touch with reality.

There is only one thing that the owners and the players will ultimately respect and that is a decline in ratings and revenue.
 
White girl here, and I agree, SloBurn.

I’ve seen compelling data that, given equivalent resumes, people of color--or even those who seem to be people of color--may be hired and/or salaried and/or promoted at lower rates than white counterparts. (One example is a 2010 study by Marianne Bertrand and Sendhil Mullainathan.)

As someone who hires over 30 people a year, my compelling statement to you is that we make the lowest possible offer that we can to every new employee. The position has what we call a "salary range", a low, midpoint, and a high. All candidates with "equal" qualifications, resumes, and interview skills will get offers containing the identical same starting salary, which is always the lowest, locally competitive offer that we can get away with while still attracting quality talent. I can give you 5 years worth of offer letters (~150 of them) to candidates of both genders and all races proving that they were all offered the same exact starting salary for the same position. That being said, I can show you a couple of dozen counter-offers letters, and another handful of letters refusing the position at the salary offered (about half of them took the position after we increased our offer). See a pattern here? 150 lowest offers made. ~40-50 accepted position at a salary above the lowest offer. ~5 that took that position at a much higher offer than the rest. Some people accept the minimum because they don't negotiate well, or at all. Some start at higher salaries because they negotiate a higher salary by leveraging other skills, experience, or talent that makes it beneficial for us to make a second (or third) higher offer.

The ~90-95 that are working at the lowest salary think I am a racist or a mysoginist.
 
Maybe if you disrespecting people were to leave the United States (We wont miss you no matter what your skin color rap sheet reads)and go to a country that executes you for disrespecting that countrys flag you might be more inclined to stand up and RESPECT OUR COUNTRYS FLAG.

Millions have died to give you the privilege of protesting something you dont like.
White people brought you over from your country by force, forced you to work on farms, beat you, hung you, shot you, killed you ,and eventually set you free. Now 200 years later your sports figures. politicians, leaders ,etc and your still not satisfied. If Blacks didnt commit crime they would not be arrested and sent to jail or shot pointing guns /carrying guns .
Its not Black Oppression it`s Crime Suppression

To the people taking a knee at the Anthem I pity you , I will not support you , I will not buy any products with your name or number on them .
To the Sponsors I will not buy your products
Anybody who disagrees can simply LEAVE


 
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this excerpt is from an article on CNN web site.....

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media at the outset of the controversy.

so I am confused when people say the protesting is not disrespecting the American Flag or America itself.....did I somehow miss-interpret Kaepernick's own words above?....
 

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