I voted with my wallet........

Discussion in 'The Tiki Bar' started by Gofirstclass, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. Boater420

    Boater420 Well-Known Member

    Mar 11, 2015
    Clearwater, FL
    '97 330 Sundancer
    V-Drives
    Westerbeke 4.5BCG
    Twin Merc 454's
    Police: I don't care why you can't come in, it's not my problem. I've been called out here for three males causing a disturbance. We can do this two ways, you all leave now or you'll be trespassed from the property.


    I meant in this discussion, my bad for lack of clarity. We already did the police thing once. This discussion was more about societal oppression faced by blacks at the hands of non-police.

    BS...you meant exactly what you said. You called the men's integrity into question because they didn't ask why, they just left. You're better than that.

    "Kev, I think you are living under the mistaken idea that all blacks face horrible racism and unjust treatment from the police every day"

    Not ALL blacks face racism from the POLICE EVERY DAY but they face it from some others in society. Not every day, maybe not once a month but they face it and shouldn't have to...period.

    Some black guys huh...how many? 10...20...more? How many people live in this country and you've maybe spoken to 30 of them regarding racism? Please!

    You're WAAAAYYYYY to sensitive. I've already said my peace regarding the police. I think their system needs a major overhaul. End of story. If you don't like people who criticize the police, just say it, it's cool.
     
  2. Gofirstclass

    Gofirstclass Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 20, 2010
    Tri Cities, WA
    1995 550 Sedan Bridge,
    2010 Boston Whaler 130 Super Sport,
    1981 Boston Whaler 130 Sport,
    CAT 3406C's, 580hp.
    I grew up in Michigan in a GM town. My grandfather was a wealthy man who owned an oil distributorship that covered a large part of the lower peninsula of MI. He employed about (guessing here) 150 people. He was the most racist man I knew, but he treated all of his employees fairly. His employees loved him because he paid them well and treated them the same.

    Many times I heard him make a comment like "Go grab a couple of them Ni***** and that (insert your favorite racist term here) and have them do that job.

    It's not that he thought less of them, it's just that generation he was raised in. To him, using the "N-word" was not a derogatory term, it was an adjective used to identify who he was talking about.

    My mother was the same way. Very racist. She always referred to non-whites by a slang word (insert Wop, Chink, Dago, Beaner, etc.).

    I was embarrassed by her racist attitude and was determined to break that chain. I tried very hard to not be racist in front of my kids and in my daily life.

    I think I succeeded. My two sons are both adopted. One is white, the other Hispanic. Am I racist? Don't think so.
     
  3. Woody

    Woody Well-Known Member

    Nov 20, 2007
    N. Wisconsin/Lk Superior
    2005 420DA
    Cummins 6CTA8.3
    Holy smokes....this post is like drawing a line on a mobius strip.
    Are you racist? I dunno, but you certainly still could be.
     
  4. keokie

    keokie Well-Known Member

    Dec 27, 2006
    Arizona
    2002 310 Sundancer, Westerbeke 4.5 Genset
    496's, Bravo III's, 2.2:1 Gears
    Boater, I have been reading all your comments with interest. You seem to have a fair amount of thought behind your opinions. I respect that. Honestly.

    I'll admit, I disagree with most of your opinions on this topic, and have a lot of though behind mine as well.

    I've seen up close and personal true acts of unvarnished, irrefutable racism. It is the very definition of vile and disgusting. Not always (I say with humility), but often, I have stepped up to oppose it. Sometime's that opposition has had a price. Once I thought I might literally get pummeled, but opened my mouth anyway. At least once when it might have cost me nothing, I couldn't muster the courage/think quickly enough to do anything. That failure was a life-lesson to me.

    With that said, I always try to be very, very careful assigning motive to other people's actions. Assuming racism is the cause when someone is mistreated is morally dangerous. We are all mistreated in life and often. When you assume the cause of mistreatment is racism, you are assigning a grotesque flaw to the offender. If it is not deserved, you have just created an enormous offense, which in my opinion is on the very same level of racist behavior.

    The example of not being let in the club that you gave is not convincing to me. You have by default labelled the individual that wouldn't allow them in as racist with nothing more than a casual coincidence. My days of going out are long, long behind me, but when I did, friends and I were refused entrance routinely to all kinds of places, and very often simply came back a short time later and were let in.

    I truly believe one of the biggest disservices you can do to a human being is convince them they live in a society where they will commonly be a victim of racism. Like many people, my life has been a struggle, and I have faced significant adversity and failure. My profession in particular hands out rejection like it is halloween candy. I can't imagine how hard it would have been to overcome if I believed I was facing a significant portion of that rejection because of my skin color. I doubt I would have many of the successes I have had, and I can't imagine how I would fight off bitterness.

    You may be right. We might be living in different worlds. I like this one a lot better.
     
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  5. northshore

    northshore Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jan 17, 2011
    Cleveland, OH
    1989 340 Sundancer
    Raymarine E90W Radar/Chartplotter
    Twin 454 Mercruiser 340's
    Is this in the police manual, or is this just a preconceived notion you have about police?


    It is? I missed that rule - my bad. The cop pig socks and the cop getting his throat slit (both courtesy of protesting football players which is the genesis of the thread) kinda led me to think that is might have something to do with cops.

    BS What ? If you are denied entry to a public place and you just turn around hike your skirt up and leave without asking why? Short answer - there is no integrity to call in to question? Grow a set - ask why.
    (keep in mind, it was skibum that mentioned a more confrontational approach)

    I'll speak to the 'they should not have to face it' point first - you are dead right no one should have to face that crap. Now on to the how often it happens - Stop guessing. You dont know.

    Let me know what the appropriate number is and I'll work toward that goal! LMAO.
    BTW: how many have you spoken to?

    Check my posts, I've mentioned several times I don't like bad police.

    You have WAAAAYYY to many preconceived notions about the extent of racism in this country, the belief that you know intimately what lives in the hearts of police everywhere with nothing based in fact and certainly no metrics to measure it by.

    Congratulations, I think you have become what you despise.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
    Gofirstclass likes this.
  6. northshore

    northshore Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jan 17, 2011
    Cleveland, OH
    1989 340 Sundancer
    Raymarine E90W Radar/Chartplotter
    Twin 454 Mercruiser 340's
    Woody, how do you possibly get that out of his post? Serious question. Perhaps you're joking?
     
  7. Gofirstclass

    Gofirstclass Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 20, 2010
    Tri Cities, WA
    1995 550 Sedan Bridge,
    2010 Boston Whaler 130 Super Sport,
    1981 Boston Whaler 130 Sport,
    CAT 3406C's, 580hp.
    Woody, thank you for your generous contribution to this informative and thought provoking thread. You added a lot of intelligent information. BS.

    FYI, I'm probably one of the least racist people you could ever meet.

    Racist? Not likely. Prejudiced? Absolutely. I don't like liars, thieves, meth heads, bullies, KKK members, etc. I have strong prejudices against those groups and many others.
     
  8. northshore

    northshore Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jan 17, 2011
    Cleveland, OH
    1989 340 Sundancer
    Raymarine E90W Radar/Chartplotter
    Twin 454 Mercruiser 340's
    Bing - Winner!

    Although not as deep as what you are doing, I'm helping guide a young, sharp black kid(am I allowed to say that?) financially as we have formed a nice friendship. Just today, I gave him a rash of crap about how much he is spending eating out for lunch every day! The kid should retire a millionaire several times over!
     
  9. FootballFan

    FootballFan Well-Known Member

    Jun 20, 2012
    Florida
    Marquis 59
    MTU Series 60
    Can a person whose skin color is not white be a racist?
     
  10. skibum

    skibum Well-Known Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Perry Hall, MD
    2005 Sundancer 260
    496 Magnum HO
    LOL... Are you kidding me? In the US right now, white people are the least racist. We've gotten over it. Its everyone else still walking around with a chip on their shoulder over things that happened in the past. The current definition of racism is "I failed, so it's someone of some other race's fault."
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
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  11. skibum

    skibum Well-Known Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Perry Hall, MD
    2005 Sundancer 260
    496 Magnum HO
    Hold the phone there, partner. I didn't say anything about being confrontational. I said that they should have demanded an explanation. That can be done without being confrontational. I meant do that while maintaining a calm demeanor and keeping your cool. If I was able to get in without my black friend, I would go get him and then let them refuse me reentry with him at my side. I might get a little stern with them at that point, but I would do it with a dignified tone and manner as always. It is entirely possible to stand up for what you believe in without getting into an altercation.
     
  12. boatman37

    boatman37 Well-Known Member

    Jun 6, 2015
    pittsburgh
    2006 Crownline 250CR
    Previous: 1986 Sea Ray 250 Sundancer
    5.7 Merc
    Delete (accidentally hit a key that submitted it...lol)
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  13. Blueone

    Blueone Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jan 24, 2007
    Lake Erie, Ohio
    2004 420 Sundancer
    Cummins 6CTA 450's
    So you guys are what 11 pages into this ?..... How is it going ?

    It's not a black thing ... It's not a white thing... It's a country thing.. We are a melting pot...alot of diverse backgrounds that come together and form a country.. Respect each other and all this crap goes away...
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
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  14. boatman37

    boatman37 Well-Known Member

    Jun 6, 2015
    pittsburgh
    2006 Crownline 250CR
    Previous: 1986 Sea Ray 250 Sundancer
    5.7 Merc
    Everyone (AND I MEAN EVERYONE) has an opportunity to do something with their lives, or at least have it better than their parents. That, I feel, is a right as an American. My wife is a teacher at a vocational technical school. For whatever reason it seems the worst students of each of the 7 attending districts end up. Her first year she had a female student that had a bad attitude. This girl was a sophomore (this school is 10th-12th grades). My wife mis-pronounced her name and the girl stood up and said 'its pronounced ****' . This was said in a very antagonistic way. After awhile my wife sat down with her and had a conversation. She found out that the girl lived in the projects and was raising her younger sister. She had no idea who her father was and her mother was in jail for drugs. This student began trusting my wife and would come to her with her problems and my wife guided her. A few years later the girl graduated from high school and wrote my wife a letter. She was the first person in her family to graduate from high school and said she was going to quit but that my wife would not let her. She said she would have never graduated if my wife did not ride her hard and push her. This girl is now a nurse, bought her own house, and has a daughter in the gifted program. 15 years later my wife still tells this story with tears in her eyes.

    Point being, many kids today take the easy way out. They have not been taught responsibility or discipline and never had to work for what they have.

    A little about myself...My father was an alcoholic who made good money in the steel mill. My mother made minimum wage at the local factory. They divorced when I was about 5 or 6. My dad got remarried and all of his money was spent on beer, fast cars, or fast women. He did not pay child support. My mother raised me by herself on minimum wage and we NEVER got any government assistance for anything. I did not get free or reduced lunch (we qualified but I didn't want it. Back then you had to stand in a separate line and other kids made fun of you so she didn't make me). On top of this I was in a bad car crash when I was 4 (1973). I was with my uncle and a semi t-boned us on the passenger door. I was supposed to die according to the doctors. Since then I cannot use my right arm. I had everything going against me growing up. We were poor, I had an obvious physical impairment, and I was being raised by a single parent. I didn't sit back and feel sorry for myself. I played baseball, rode motorcycles, played football, and did martial arts. All the things the average kid did. Sure I had to work harder than others but I did it. After I was old enough to take care of myself my mother got her realtor license and began a new career. Several years later I was working in a steel mill. I hurt my other arm and had surgery. My kids had to feed me for a few days until I got some mobility back in my good arm. Did I fold up? Nope. Went back to school and got a degree.

    This is why I get frustrated when people blame others for their misfortunes. I have had more misfortunes than most and more than any one person ever should. But I wouldn't change any part of it. It made me who I am and gave me that mentality that if I want something I just have to work harder than everyone else to get it. This is what today's generation doesn't get. It doesn't matter what color your skin is. This is more of an economical problem than anything else. I see generations living in the projects on government assistance. That is their way of life. The ones that are pushed (my wife's student) often succeed and break that pattern. Those that aren't pushed continue on with that lifestyle because they know no different. Then their mindset is that of the 'oppressed' or 'underprivileged' and that society owes them a break.

    As far as higher education, there are grants and student loans. I used them (and still paying on them). Some of these kids could probably go to college practically free. Problem is they have to get through high school first and with nobody to push them many either drop out or resort to crime, or both.

    Peer pressure is another issue. I bet if you interviewed the 'gangstas' one-on-one and they were completely honest, most would say they would trade their lifestyle if given the chance. The problem is they will never admit it in front of each other so they continue on. They need to display that tough guy attitude or they are considered weak. I know all about that, believe me.

    Sorry for the long post but just had to get that out there. I really didn't want to go there with my personal situation but felt it needed to be said. I have never asked for, or expected any special treatment growing up. If anything I think special treatment would have done more harm than good and made me understand that I had to work to overcome any obstacles.

    For the last few years I have thought about doing some motivational speaking. I suck at public speaking but I think my story speaks from the heart and that is all that is needed. I told my wife if we ever hit the powerball I wanted to set up a camp or day sessions for underprivileged or at risk kids and show them the possibilities if you just put your mind to it.

    I don't want that this person or that person didn't have a chance. If I can do it then anyone can. I'm not special, just motivated!

    Can't means won't!
     
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  15. trflgrl

    trflgrl Active Member

    909
    Jun 23, 2014
    Middle Tennessee
    1989 Sundancer 300
    Twin 350 Merc/Alpha 1 Gen 1; Quicksilver 4.0 gen
    Absolutely


    GFC: Putting one's money where one's mouth is by donating resources or time is hugely valuable. Kudos for doing it at all, and extra kudos for seeking an under-served audience.


    More people applying that degree of consciousness and effort on a grander scale and across more areas of education, business, and day to day relationships will help address issues where they’re systemic but largely invisible. That’s how it’s tied into government—federal, state, local—in addition to being something we as citizens can continue to influence in our own spheres.

    I agree the effects of oppression may be mitigated as individuals gain skills for money management, job search/interview/salary negotiation, etc. like GFC and others have noted. Its effects may be mitigated by an individual's personal drive, too--the "people can succeed if they just work hard and want it badly enough" perspective--as many here have noted.

    However, saying a person is 100% responsible for their own success or lack thereof is just plain silly. Saying people of color face the same challenges as whites may be is accurate, and is also incomplete. Some of us get a head start and a hand up without even knowing it, and willful ignorance or sweeping dismissive statements and attitudes prevent folks from getting past their own view points and seeing that of others (everyone, not just whites).

    For those who say or think, "I've never gotten anything just because I'm white," how are you certain? If you work in a department or company that's disproportionately white relative to the population in your community, have you wondered why? Have you asked your management team why? If you have, and especially if you've become involved in efforts to maximize the pool of recruits/applicants, thank you and KUTGW, and I mean that sincerely. If you haven't, because that might be risky for you personally....ask why it should ever be a problem for an employee to encourage its employer to be as diverse as possible in its recruitment and hiring efforts. Isn't that how we solicit the best and brightest, period? FYI: I'm not proposing "token" hiring, hiring quotas, or the like—those practices don’t cultivate positive employee relations or long term business viability. I'm talking about proactively expanding the candidate pool, one step that can create a ripple effect that expands the hiring pool, and the development pool, and so on.

    For example, if an organization has recruiting programs through local colleges and universities, what are the demographics of those schools? Are they primarily white? Primarily minority? A diverse mix?

    If a company recruits at a primarily white university but not at a primarily minority university, the white students just got handed an opportunity. (Granted, minority students at this university have the same opportunity, but stick with me for the math, here.)

    A large number of equally hard working, equally qualified students at the primarily minority university in the same city got passed over completely. (Along with any white students attending this university, of course.)

    It may not have been a deliberate act to exclude the primarily minority university from the program; heck, maybe the recruiters scheduled career fairs based on an alphabetical list of area universities and ran out of resources before they got to it. But now basic math would suggest the organization will have a proportionally larger pool of white student applicants than minority student applicants….and also suggest it's likely to hire proportionally more whites because more applied. Those companies say, “We don’t discriminate, it’s just that we don’t get a lot of minority applicants.” And that response is accurate, but incomplete.

    So although individual effort and perseverance are very important, they aren’t 100% of the equation. External variables exist and can restrict opportunities, sometimes more severely than one might guess.

    If your own company has expansive recruiting practices, yet has a disproportionately low number of minority applicants, has anyone explored why? If it has an extremely diverse pool of applicants, yet a disproportionately low number of minority hires, has anyone explored why? If it has an extremely diverse pool of new hires, but a disproportionately low retention rate for minority employees, has anyone explored why? If it has an extremely diverse pool of employees, but a disproportionately low number of minority employees in management and executive positions, has anyone explored why? If it has an extremely diverse pool of employees, but pay rates among equally credentialed, equally tenured, equally accomplished employees who also are equally skilled at negotiating salaries/raises are widely disparate, has anyone explored why?

    My company has committed itself to this level of internal scrutiny in multiple parts of the organization, as well as the level of discomfort that comes with it. Acknowledging employees or practices are intentionally or unintentionally discriminatory is hard, and indeed opens the door to individual and organizational risk. The motivation for this effort isn't to insulate against discrimination lawsuits--it's to do the right thing by our communities while providing quality services and remaining profitable.

    We’re getting better at seeking and hiring qualified candidates who better represent a cross section of our communities. We’re getting better at ensuring equitable pay practices. We’re getting better at identifying candidates and developing them into leaders who better represent a cross section of our employee base. And we’re committed to keep watching and questioning and listening and working. That’s what’s missing in responses like, “Things are better than they used to be, so people should be happy with what they have,” or “Things are better here than in XYZ country, so people who don’t like it should just leave.”

    Things are better here than in some other countries, and much better than they used to be even here, and that reality sometimes gets clouded by dust-ups like this one. But I’ll lean on the 4-H motto of my younger days and propose there's room to make the best better.
     
  16. Woody

    Woody Well-Known Member

    Nov 20, 2007
    N. Wisconsin/Lk Superior
    2005 420DA
    Cummins 6CTA8.3
    It’s OK guys. I figured I’d get such a response….and I was right.

    GFC, you say that your grandfather ‘was the most racist man’ that you knew. Given that you probably know a lot of people, and that you probably know close family better than other acquaintances, and that you have no qualms in publicly calling him out, I’d be inclined to believe you….he must have been one.

    You even illustrate that by giving an example….rather than refer to some of his ‘workers’ by name he just says ‘grab some of them niggers and go get that job done’. Gives me shivers GFC, cause that’s word for word what the field boss on the plantation said sometimes. Wow, you’re correct, that’s definitely a racist comment coming from your racist Grandfather. You know him best, you’ll get no disagreement from me.

    But then…..you also said your Grandfather ‘treated all of his employees fairly’, ‘he paid them well and treated them the same’. Most importantly you told us your Grandfather did not ‘think any less of them’.

    GFC, a cornerstone in the foundation of a racists thinking is that a particular race is superior to another. Your post went full circle, while talking about one man, you described two, one a racist and the other not…thus my comment on the mobius strip.

    I’ll disagree that your children, or a bi-racial marriage, or any bi-racial relationship is definitive proof one is not a racist. It’s entirely possible to truly like, to respect, even love a person for the individual they are and at the same time look down upon the rest of their race.

    To think that immunity from racism comes with your new black friend would sorta be like Harvey Weinstein thinking proof he isn’t sexist is that he married a woman.

    Food for thought?.... or maybe just more BS from the hick from the sticks
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  17. NorCal Boater

    NorCal Boater Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jan 24, 2008
    Covington, LA
    Cobalt CM23
    GM SB 383" Stroker" Alpha Gen I
    This thread has really gotten away from the topic of the jerks....a few jerks, in the NFL. But that is OK. It's been enlightening.

    Someone said a couple of pages ago that we have had racism in some form for a long time. We as a society did some pretty sucky things to others that don't think like us. But we've changed and evolved and we have made things better, much better, throughout history. But here we are, 175 years later and still beating this horse.

    You want to know why we still have racism in America? Because there are those in this country that don't want racism to end. If racism ends there will be no one to blame for the bad choices they've made. No one to point a finger at because they don't have a job. No one to protest to because their friend chose a life of crime and died at the hands of the police because of the choices they made....no one else. The Colin Kaepernicks of the world were given the gifts necessary to succeed. They've chosen to forego what they've been given and blame others for what they perceive they didn't get.

    Until the people in this country (all people) begin to accept responsibilities for their actions, the problems we currently face will get worse before it gets better
     
    MLauman likes this.
  18. northshore

    northshore Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jan 17, 2011
    Cleveland, OH
    1989 340 Sundancer
    Raymarine E90W Radar/Chartplotter
    Twin 454 Mercruiser 340's
    Sorry skibum - my bad for not being clear. My point was to at least ask. To turn around and walk away with out so much questioning why is pathetic. 'Demand' has a special meaning up here as a certain militant segment of the community is forever 'demanding' things. It has turned in to a joke, People on local message boards now start of the with lines like 'I demand you have a nice day!'
     
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  19. northshore

    northshore Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jan 17, 2011
    Cleveland, OH
    1989 340 Sundancer
    Raymarine E90W Radar/Chartplotter
    Twin 454 Mercruiser 340's
    Not sure but you can always ask the Duke lacrosse team. [/sarcasm]
     
  20. Gofirstclass

    Gofirstclass Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 20, 2010
    Tri Cities, WA
    1995 550 Sedan Bridge,
    2010 Boston Whaler 130 Super Sport,
    1981 Boston Whaler 130 Sport,
    CAT 3406C's, 580hp.
    Woody, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but let me assure you, it means squat to me. When I said he treated them fairly and they liked him, that was obvious when the union came in and tried to organize the workers. A vote was taken and by a unanimous vote the workers elected NOT to go with the union.

    I suppose what you describe is possible. Possibly likely with some people. Since you don't know me you can only guess at what my attitude toward other races is. Keep guessing because your assessment of me is way off base.
     

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