HyTorq props for 410DA

[carterchapman]

Frank,

No good deed goes unpunished.


Mark,

I'll be interested to see the performance difference with 3 bladed props. I know they are a different boat/engine combo, but the '03 1/2 340s with 8.1s had 3 bladed props. Searay switched to 4 bladed props in '04 (same engines and hull) and there was quite a performance improvement.

You've probably reviewed this thread, but here's what the late Dominic (OSD9) did to One Sweet Day's props:

http://clubsearay.com/showthread.php/3566-410DA-performance?highlight=aetna

Mike - I already sent Mark the link...

 

[Turtlesboat]

oh, that's what I get for not reading every post.

Ok, back to washing my boat.

 

[markrinker]

If you want to search for one anal prop guy, search OSD9's posts. I don't know another man more anal at getting his props tweaked. He had the same boat and engines as yours and had boost gauges installed to monitor pressure along with speed and rpms. You could save a lot of time and money duplicating his setup.

I'm not chicken little saying the sky is falling, but a boat is not like a truck. You wouldn't load up a semi, put it in first gear and drive up a mountain all day long with it floored and not expect bad things to happen sooner or later. Just cruising under ideal conditions @ 2400 rpms with everything tweaked right, you're running at 85% capacity. That's a lot to ask of an engine. Knock it up to 2600 rpms and now you're at 93% and the turbos are screaming at close to 20,000 rpms. If you put your hand on the turbo at this load, your skin would melt off. These engines can take a lot, but we're already giving them a lot right off the bat. It's guys like Frank that save guys like me a lot of heart ache and wasted money trying to re-invent the wheel on a recreational boat.

Good points. I wish I had known Dom. He sure was passionate and precise. Great stuff online from his projects, I'll continue to dig and read up. Thanks.

With the load placed on these engines, it seems reasonable that boost, EGT gauges should come factory installed. They are the best way to monitor a diesel...oil pressure and water temperature are not enough.

 

[tc410]

"The initial results for the three blade, 22" x 23p ACME wheels were encouraging......."

"The most interesting observation is that my cruising "sweet spot" seems to have moved up the RPM scale from 2200-2300 to about 2500-2600...."

"This also increases cruising speed up from 22-24mph to 24-26mph....."

Something's not right here IMO.... I had a 2000 410 with 3126's and the boat cruised all day long at 28.5 MPH at 2400 RPM's - fuel load never seemed to matter, people load never seemed to matter, beer inventory never seemed to matter. Then again, I was running the "old-style" 4 blade props..... I'll likely get cast in the "doom and gloom" crowd here, but I think you're going backwards in more than one way..... Then again, I'm not backed with the experience that comes from owning a DuraMax diesel pickup.

 

[carterchapman]

Something's not right here IMO.... I had a 2000 410 with 3126's and the boat cruised all day long at 28.5 MPH at 2400 RPM's - fuel load never seemed to matter, people load never seemed to matter, beer inventory never seemed to matter. Then again, I was running the "old-style" 4 blade props..... I'll likely get cast in the "doom and gloom" crowd here, but I think you're going backwards in more than one way..... Then again, I'm not backed with the experience that comes from owning a DuraMax diesel pickup.

I'm with you Michigan Jeff,

The original owner of One Sweet day (She was named Sea Gull then), Jeff Siegel told me she was a 24 "cubed" boat (I can't make an exponent of 3 here) - 2400 RPM, 24 GPH, and 24 KTS. After all the prop work, that's what she does...

 

[HUMPH]

I keep hearing that 24 knots at 2400RPM is the norm. I am running at 20 knots at 2400RPM and have had good a clean bottom, top end reset and propscan with tweaks similar to Dom's and she runs a bit faster at that RPM than before the propscan but still 4 knots slower than what you state. I do know that One Sweet Day is pumped up to 385HP so that may something to do with it. Maybe the Admiral's "stuff" is weighing me down?

 

[carterchapman]

Sheez Ken,

You haven't seen "Admiral's Stuff" until you see Sue's provisioning....

 

[markrinker]

Read the first posting in this thread and you'll see what is currently 'wrong' with my factory Hy Torqs...they are pitched closer to 26 than 25...and the boat couldn't consistently make 2800rpm at WOT. Initially, this was due to frequent RACOR filter restriction due to algae working its way out of the tanks in 2011, early 2012...nothing to do with HP, gear ratios, and propping. By late last season 2012, it appeared to me to be a slightly over pitched problem. This is how I bought the boat. The first 'stats' from the 3blades were just that - initial - under very cold water and air temps, choppy seas. I probably shouldn't have posted anything based on that first reaction. They are just another set of props. Nothing more, nothing less.

Something's not right here IMO.... I had a 2000 410 with 3126's and the boat cruised all day long at 28.5 MPH at 2400 RPM's - fuel load never seemed to matter, people load never seemed to matter, beer inventory never seemed to matter. Then again, I was running the "old-style" 4 blade props..... I'll likely get cast in the "doom and gloom" crowd here, but I think you're going backwards in more than one way..... Then again, I'm not backed with the experience that comes from owning a DuraMax diesel pickup.

Questions:

• What were the HP ratings of your 3126s?
• ZF gear ratios?
• Prop diameter and pitch?

(...and who was it that called 4-blade props 'old style'? Not me. I'd like to test a pair of five blades next. Jeff, I'm guessing you're more of a Dodge guy...or do you extrapolate from Vespa performance mods? :grin: )

 

[tc410]

Questions:

• What were the HP ratings of your 3126s?
• ZF gear ratios?
• Prop diameter and pitch?

(...and who was it that called 4-blade props 'old style'? Not me. I'd like to test a pair of five blades next. Jeff, I'm guessing you're more of a Dodge guy...or do you extrapolate from Vespa performance mods? :grin: )

1. 350 HP
2. No idea - whatever came standard on the 3126 from Sea Ray. Boat's been sold so I can't check.
3. 22X25 FOUR blade

Haven't done any mods to the Vespa. I considered putting smaller tires on it, but I figured it would run at higher RPM's and go slower - why would anyone want to do that? And BTW - looks like you're as good at guessing car types as you are at guessing prop "experiments." :grin:

 

[markrinker]

1. 350 HP
2. No idea - whatever came standard on the 3126 from Sea Ray. Boat's been sold so I can't check.
3. 22X25 FOUR blade

Haven't done any mods to the Vespa. I considered putting smaller tires on it, but I figured it would run at higher RPM's and go slower - why would anyone want to do that? And BTW - looks like you're as good at guessing car types as you are at guessing prop "experiments." :grin:

Because they found a cheap set of three blade 22x23s, and are mechanically curious. Maybe three larger blades might just yield an MPG increase over long distances. Yep, just an experiment. Q: Did you see that Dom was initially running 22x23 four blades, that he had tuned? Not sure pitch he was running at the end of his tuning, maybe someone in the know can chime in with that statistic...

Interesting that your 350hp CATs were matched to 22x25s, when my 385hp CATs won't turn the same prop consistently to WOT. Too bad we don't have your transmission ratios. My MPG number for all last season was 1.09. 2400rpm makes about 26mph, depending on load and conditions. I usually cruise at 2200-2300 if calm to 1', 2100-2200 if more chop, which yields 22-24mph.

Sounds like your 22x25s are spot on 25p, or maybe you had a slightly different gear ratio ZF?

 

[markrinker]

I keep hearing that 24 knots at 2400RPM is the norm. I am running at 20 knots at 2400RPM and have had good a clean bottom, top end reset and propscan with tweaks similar to Dom's and she runs a bit faster at that RPM than before the propscan but still 4 knots slower than what you state. I do know that One Sweet Day is pumped up to 385HP so that may something to do with it. Maybe the Admiral's "stuff" is weighing me down?

Same reason most Dodge guys claim "over 18mpg" - while hauling 32' fifth wheel campers...

 

[fwebster]

The '03 up 350 hp 3126 and the older 385 hp 3126's are different engines with different torque curves and different fuel consumption numbers so comparing them is like oranges to tangerines.

 

[HUMPH]

Sheez Ken,

You haven't seen "Admiral's Stuff" until you see Sue's provisioning....

Good thing pillows are light!

 

[HUMPH]

. Q: Did you see that Dom was initially running 22x23 four blades, that he had tuned? Not sure pitch he was running at the end of his tuning, maybe someone in the know can chime in with that statistic...QUOTE]

From Dom:

Yes....the diesel powered 410DA came from the fatory with 22 X 23 Med cup 4 blade nibrals. With 1/4 fuel, no water, no stuff and 1 POB and on a cool day it would make rated WOT. Anything added to the boat and....not.

I had my props scanned down to ISO specs at 22 X 22 with a Med cup. Between the props redone and the HP boost, with a full load I can easily spin up to 2845 RPMs....DIGITAL TACHS....not the crap analogs. Depending on the load and conditions I cruise at 2325-2375 RPMs and make 22-24 knots......again...via DIGITAL TACHS.... I tell everyone 21-23 knots.

I used to run at 2250-2325 RPMs thinking I was doing a good thing for the motors. Then I installed a set of pyrometers and boost guages. I had many conversations with CAT techs and a few emails with a CAT engineer at the factory. He sent me the boost and pyro specs. It turns out that the pyro reading would actually decrease between 2200 and 2400 RPMs before rising again after that. So, the motors are actually breathing better cruising at the RPMs that they were desgined to cruise at....2400 RPMs. BUT....big BUT here.....you have to be sure you are propped correctly so that you aren't overloading the motors.

Start by getting your props worked to a point that you can make Rated WOT RPMs ++ with the boat loaded up...​

Later,

Dom




​

 

[fwebster]

The notion of comparing engines of different year/rating and one boat to another is dangerous in that you might not know all the facts. For example did you know that Dom's analysis, while accurate for his boat will never work out the same for others........unless you have the pump settings adjusted to the same profile Dom's were?

 

[Turtlesboat]

True, but I found that even with different motors and different boats, our numbers were pretty similar when everything was in the ball park. I could even calculate my GPH accurately and cruise into Jersey after a 250 mile trip even when my fuel gauges were sitting on E for a couple of hours. (long story). So when everything is tweaked to be within spec and you run these motors where they are supposed to run, the 410 and the 450 performed very similar and predictable. You can break out the fuel consumption charts and know to within an hour or two how much fuel you're burning and what speed you should be hitting. This is at cruise speed, at slower speeds our numbers wouldn't track each others, but it was predictable. I would burn a little more fuel across the board because I have the 420hp engines and my boat was bigger, but the numbers weren't far off. He could even tell where my trim tabs were set if I shot him my RPM's and speed. That's how predictable these engines are.

 

[markrinker]

. Q: Did you see that Dom was initially running 22x23 four blades, that he had tuned? Not sure pitch he was running at the end of his tuning, maybe someone in the know can chime in with that statistic...QUOTE]

From Dom:

Yes....the diesel powered 410DA came from the fatory with 22 X 23 Med cup 4 blade nibrals. With 1/4 fuel, no water, no stuff and 1 POB and on a cool day it would make rated WOT. Anything added to the boat and....not.

I had my props scanned down to ISO specs at 22 X 22 with a Med cup. Between the props redone and the HP boost, with a full load I can easily spin up to 2845 RPMs....DIGITAL TACHS....not the crap analogs. Depending on the load and conditions I cruise at 2325-2375 RPMs and make 22-24 knots......again...via DIGITAL TACHS.... I tell everyone 21-23 knots.

I used to run at 2250-2325 RPMs thinking I was doing a good thing for the motors. Then I installed a set of pyrometers and boost guages. I had many conversations with CAT techs and a few emails with a CAT engineer at the factory. He sent me the boost and pyro specs. It turns out that the pyro reading would actually decrease between 2200 and 2400 RPMs before rising again after that. So, the motors are actually breathing better cruising at the RPMs that they were desgined to cruise at....2400 RPMs. BUT....big BUT here.....you have to be sure you are propped correctly so that you aren't overloading the motors.

Start by getting your props worked to a point that you can make Rated WOT RPMs ++ with the boat loaded up...​

Later,

Dom




​

So... Dom stepped down in pitch, from factory 22x23 to 22x22 to make his rated 2800 RPMs. His description of only making 2800 with a light boat, on a good day, is similar to my experience to date, with 385hp and 22x25s from the factory.

Dom then turned up his fuel rate to the 385hp rating (...the same as my boat) but was still only slinging 22x22's...unless he added new wheels, or had them repitched to match the new horsepower. OMG WHY DIDN'T THE SKY FALL???

My guess is that he used his throttle handle with conservatism, and ran the boat closer to the factory 2400 cruise RPM because he had loads of power on reserve, and that's what his EGT and boost told him was the right place to be. Smart guy, that Dom. He just had four smaller blades to do the same work, and the known, positive performance characteristics to go with four blades. But...maybe he unknowingly also left some MPG on the table with those four little blades churning away, instead of three very big ones...especially during long on-plane running.

The notion of giving up 1 or 2 mph on the WOT top end, at an RPM where you will NEVER cruise doesn't bother me, if I can unload a (slightly) overloaded engine, and use the newfound power in reserve with respect. The turbos are match volumetrically and to the fuel rate of the engines - and nothing has changed there. Reduce the load, bring up the RPMs slightly (staying within factory spec 2400 at cruise) and what changes?

Efficiency. And that saves $$$, and only provides you a little more time on the water to get there.

 

[Dani-Lu]

I have the 385hp engines, and had my props pitched to 22x22 to reach the 2825-2850 WOT RPMs with 3/4 to full tank of fuel, full tank of water and fully loaded with gear and food for the season. Boat runs 21 kts at 2350, 22 kts at 2400 and 26/27 kts at WOT. I tend to run her at 2300 to 2350, which seems to make her purr.

 

[markrinker]

I have the 385hp engines, and had my props pitched to 22x22 to reach the 2825-2850 WOT RPMs with 3/4 to full tank of fuel, full tank of water and fully loaded with gear and food for the season. Boat runs 21 kts at 2350, 22 kts at 2400 and 26/27 kts at WOT. I tend to run her at 2300 to 2350, which seems to make her purr.

Thanks for posting these stats. What prop pitch did you get from the factory? 22x25p? I wonder why SeaRay was setting up these boats overpitched ...maybe in search of top speed as a benchmark for marketing...?

I am now in search of a set of four blade 22x22s, or 22x23s that I could have tuned down.

 

[Dani-Lu]

Thanks for posting these stats. What prop pitch did you get from the factory? 22x25p? I wonder why SeaRay was setting up these boats overpitched ...maybe in search of top speed as a benchmark for marketing...?

I am now in search of a set of four blade 22x22s, or 22x23s that I could have tuned down.

I believe they were 22x24 and I had them repitched twice to get the WOT above 2800. I think the first time they were pitched to 22x23 and she still did not get to 2800. Seems like 22x22 is the magic number for my boat and Dom's, who we all dearly miss a lot! Jeff