HyTorq props for 410DA

Props have arrived at the marina where TLI is still in storage. They started launching boats yesterday; can't wait to get out on the water and run some tests!!!
 
Keep us posted on the results...
 
Re: HyTorq vs ACME props for 410DA

FINALLY!!! Took TLI on her maiden 2013 outing - although I've been living aboard for the last week or so, while working at www.barkers-island-marina.com . (My wife wanted me to WAIT to go out, until she could be here and also the weather had been in the 40s - cold, rainy, and conditions out on Lake Superior not good...)

The initial results for the three blade, 22" x 23p ACME wheels were encouraging. They ran up to and hold 2800-2900rpms at WOT easily, with no cavitation detected, even with the handles pushed to WOT from a dead in the water start. Top speed with full fuel, full fresh water, two people and gear was a respectable 30.2mph in moderately choppy seas, as compared to 32mph in the same conditions with the 22" x 25p four blades. Some reduced backing capability was noticed, but nothing crippling. On-plane acceleration is slower, but not alarmingly so - it does take more RPM to hold the boat firmly on plane, as compared to the 4 blade 22" x 25p.

The most interesting observation is that my cruising "sweet spot" seems to have moved up the RPM scale from 2200-2300 to about 2500-2600. (Definition of sweet spot being a mathematical observation of the fastest on-plane speed for any given RPM, and also the sound of the engines.) This also increases cruising speed up from 22-24mph to 24-26mph.

However, the turbo whine that is characteristic to the 3126s is noticeably (read MUCH, ANNOYINGLY, ETC...) louder at this RPM band - even my wife noticed immediately, and our ears were both ringing after getting back from our 1hr outing. I take this as a good sign overall for economy, that a good burn is happening and spooling up more boost (...which helps with the more complete burn) - but a sign that I'll need to install more sound proofing and even consider ear plugs while running on plane.

We will be cruising this weekend, and I hope to get the first measurable results as to MPG. I'm hoping to see numbers solidly in the 1.1 - 1.2 mpg range.
 
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I must be missing something here.

The 3 bladed props decrease your speed, the decrease low speed handling and are requiring you to increase rpms. Additionally, Caterpillar established a rated cruise rpms for your engines of 2400, yet it appears you plan to run them at 2500 to 2600. That will also increase fuel burn from roughly 20 gph to approximately 30 gph.

Other than wanting to get to know your Cat mechanic extremely well, I can't see what you have gained by the change..........help me understand.
 
Well Frank, the boat ran for 620hrs slightly over-propped and is running like a top. A set of inexpensive ACMEs presented themselves in this configuration and pitch, that appear to put me slightly under-propped. My plan is to run the boat over a variety of conditions through end of June, and do a gross miles/gallon calculation over a few tanks at that time.

I don't plan to run the engines harder, in fact they are working less (loading) at any given RPM. Granted, there is more time spent to cover the same distance, but only a few tank average divided by miles covered will really tell me if I am taking a step forward, or step backward - economy wise.

No plans to run around at 2400, 2500 or WOT for extended periods of time. The chop here on Superior doesn't allow it much anyway. Today was a good example - about seven hours run time anywhere from 1500-2500 depending on what direction, wind, and wave conditions would allow. Water temps were in the 160 range most of the time, not surprising considering the 38f water temperatures...

I don't care which set of props I run, and which become the spares. I plan to tune both sets so they will deliver 2800 rpms at WOT, and understand exactly what conditions each set is optimized for.

Overpropped, underpropped - neither set is so far out of spec that I run any risk of melting engines. In fact, I'd say the best way to get better fuel economy would be to move to a body of water where there is far more smooth running conditions, and where the water temps are about 30f warmer.

My thoughts for now. Its all experiential learning. And BTW...the turbo whine wasn't as pronounced today, even my wife noticed that. Wondering if I had the engine hatch not quite closed, stuck on a life jacket when it closed or something? (on edit...an additional 2200# of people might be the difference, we had twelve people on board today!)
 
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Cruising around at 2600 rpm all day, I bet the turbos are a nice burnt white color.
 
My turbos were a burnt white color when I bought the boat. Every 3126 I have seen has the same discoloration. No plans to spend hours cruising at 2600rpm.

The best way to overheat turbos is to blow black sooty exhaust through them (unburned fuel due to over-fueled or overloaded condition) and is associated with high EGTs. The turbos are volumetrically matched to the displacement and fuel rate by Caterpillar. The only thing I am varying is load (prop selection and weight on board) and the RPM desired.

The extra noise level was likely an engine hatch left ajar. If not, adding approximately 2400# of people and gear added enough load to bring the turbo RPMs down a bit. I'll see tomorrow when just my wife and I go out for another cruise.

In the meantime, I do appreciate the input, but this isn't my first rodeo with diesels and they having a much wider band of tolerance/variance for load, fuel rates, RPMs than you guys are giving them credit for...think about this same engine in a semi...running loaded and unloaded...in Denver in the winter, and Phoenix in the summer...our water cooled, heat exchanged environment is nearly static compared to the duty these venerable engines endure in other applications. Granted, the loads are higher and more constant, but I'm not tweaking fuel rates and adding more pitch to run 40mph. I'm actually reducing load slightly on the engines with these props.

The only unknown at this point is what my economy will be under the type of mixed use the boat is now encountering. Better, or worse? A few tankfuls will tell the tale.
 
I guess I'll just have to defer to your superior knowledge of diesels...............


But you had us fooled when you started experimenting with props that Sea Ray discontinued using about 20 years ago because they were inefficient, didn't perfom well and caused handling issues on high torque engines.
 
I guess I'll just have to defer to your superior knowledge of diesels...............


But you had us fooled when you started experimenting with props that Sea Ray discontinued using about 20 years ago because they were inefficient, didn't perfom well and caused handling issues on high torque engines.

cmon now...nobody claimed to have superior knowledge here. I'm just an enthusiast, experimenting with a set of spare three blades to see what the performance differences are.

anyone that re-reads this thread can see that. and that its culture around here to "chicken little" :grin:
 
There are some very smart people on this forum who are willing to help those that are willing to listen. Some folks have closer ties to Sea Ray and Sea Ray facilities than others and that makes them a bit more qualified to speak.

You can run your boat any way you please. Hopefully, you don't grenade an engine in the process. Frank is too polite and diplomatic to tell you "I told you so." The rest of us aren't.

Best of luck in your experiments.





sea tow.jpg
 
There are some very smart people on this forum who are willing to help those that are willing to listen. Some folks have closer ties to Sea Ray and Sea Ray facilities than others and that makes them a bit more qualified to speak.

You can run your boat any way you please. Hopefully, you don't grenade an engine in the process. Frank is too polite and diplomatic to tell you "I told you so." The rest of us aren't.

Best of luck in your experiments.





View attachment 30339

Prior to joining ClubSeaRay.com, I have been a moderator over on TheDieselPage.com - a site dedicated to GM light diesel truck owners. On that site, there are a mix of enthusiasts, engineers, GM Techs, etc., etc. and a spirited, moderated exchange. In that time I put on about 500K on Duramax trucks, 250K on 6.5L diesels, with another thousand or so additional hours on Kubota diesels in skidsteers.

Like any company, organization, etc. there is a 'culture' that forms in groups. Its the tone, language, or conflict resolution protocol that comes about, based on feedback loops. Sometimes its the methods of a moderator (...or lack thereof). Sometimes its people voting with their feet when the exchange offers no value beyond opinion. What I find interesting about ClubSeaRay is the ominous tone of impending doom that is prevalent when someone steps out of lockstep with what is considered to be 'best practices'. Examples:


  • Opting to forego an annual layup oil change of <80hrs, when the boat is stored in a climate controlled environment of 55f following a 60 mile on plane trip to the storage facility.
  • Testing a set of three blade props of same diameter and less pitch (...when the same pundits ominously warned me that the 22x25p factory props that wouldn't consistently reach 2800rpms were too steep and about to cause engine damage from overloading!) :smt021


I truly appreciate the value of common experiences - that I why I am here, and sharing mine. Culture here at ClubSeaRay.com has become an ominous tone of 'I know better than you, so listen or impending doom is in your future..." when someone steps out of lockstep with what is considered to be 'best practices'.

As I've said, if I were turning up the injection pump and throwing on a set of 24x28p in search of 40mph, concern and criticism would be warranted. This test is a very moderate experiment in pitch and blade count is akin to swapping a set of factory Generals mud and snow tread P265/70r16s on your pickup to a set of P285/75r16s highway tread - to see how they perform by comparison.

If you have commentary based on realworld experience or genuine enthusiast interest, by all means, please share. However, If you are sitting back, waiting for a chance to post ominous warnings of gloom and doom that the sky is about to fall - well keep it to yourself or post it on some newbie's thread that you can scare.


Love, peace, hugs -

Mark
 
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I must be missing something here.

The 3 bladed props decrease your speed, the decrease low speed handling and are requiring you to increase rpms. Additionally, Caterpillar established a rated cruise rpms for your engines of 2400, yet it appears you plan to run them at 2500 to 2600. That will also increase fuel burn from roughly 20 gph to approximately 30 gph.

Other than wanting to get to know your Cat mechanic extremely well, I can't see what you have gained by the change..........help me understand.


All points well taken, Frank. Remember that these props have not been tuned, or cupped yet. At this point, NOTHING has been gained by the change, other than experience and knowing that this set could be kept aboard as ready spares that would get me home, in the case that my other set were damaged and could not be used.

I am* interested in seeing what the fuel economy does, over 20+ hrs and mixed use. I know what my MPG and average GPH rates are with the other props.

Since you made the first reference to 'getting to know my Caterpillar mechanic', and have the most SeaRay diesel knowledge here - please describe to me a scenario that could result in engine damage by running a set of any props that result in a WOT load of 2800rpm. Its not that I am not listening as has been suggested, its that you have made no case for your claim, and your buddies chiming in with gloom and doom scenarios is annoying.

Lets talk about some facts, experiences, ideas...or just not talk. Fair enough?
 
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Read these 2 quotes from your earlier results post:



1.) The most interesting observation is that my cruising "sweet spot" seems to have moved up the RPM scale from 2200-2300 to about 2500-2600. (Definition of sweet spot being a mathematical observation of the fastest on-plane speed for any given RPM, and also the sound of the engines.) This also increases cruising speed up from 22-24mph to 24-26mph.

2.) However, the turbo whine that is characteristic to the 3126s is noticeably (read MUCH, ANNOYINGLY, ETC...) louder at this RPM band - even my wife noticed immediately, and our ears were both ringing after getting back from our 1hr outing. I take this as a good sign overall for economy, that a good burn is happening and spooling up more boost (...which helps with the more complete burn) - but a sign that I'll need to install more sound proofing and even consider ear plugs while running on plane.




#1 reads like you found the new sweetspot for your 3 bladed props and it is 2500-2600 rpm. "Sweetspot" means to me the speed at which the boat is happy and the engines are comfortable, and is the speed you would cruise at. In the the case of the 3126, in any configuration for "E" rated engines, which your are, sustained operation at this rpms setting is over rev-ing and would result in overloading.

You asked about damage to the engines at WOT @2800 rpm. No damage will happen as long as you stay under the "E" Rating limits of operation. ......According to Caterpillar, as long as the engines turn 2800 @ WOT, you can run them all day long at 2400rpm and even at 2800 RPM for up to 8% of the time without any damage. It is your boat, you can run it any way you wish and further debate seems pointless.


#2. Turbo whine..this is a different subject, but you might want to check to see that your boat has Walker Air-Seps on it. Mine is a 1996 and it did not have them from the factory. At some point along the way, Sea Ray started installing them on all 3100 series engines to muffle the intake noise. These engines without the Air-Seps are nearly deafening in the cockpit once the turbo spools up........Air-Seps on these engines are certainly worth the $1800 cost.
 
#1) I may have been premature in declaring any RPM as a sweetspot, as I have not been able to operate the boat in smooth conditions yet. 1-2" chop and gusty winds have been present during both trips taken thus far. I'll wait until a nice sunny afternoon after work (if we ever get one!) and do a more thorough test. The first short trip with my wife and I was certainly different than the second trip with 12 people. Maybe it was background noise of people, maybe I was simply running the boat at much lower RPM due to larger chop, but it seemed that even when we did a minute of WOT inside the breakwall that it was much quieter the second trip. Again, it could be related to more load and effect on boost/turbo RPMs. I did have a dash panel detached during test one where I am installing the new Clarion radio remote panel
- maybe the whine from engine compartment makes its way up through the voids....who knows, next trip will tell.

#2) The boat has typical (K&N A0506H) cone shaped oiled gauze filters that attach with three springs to a black device that appears to have sound dampening properties...drilled surfaces with batting visible behind them. The black metal cap of the filter has this same 'drilled and batting' design. I would assume that these are the Air-Seps you are referring to. They connect directly to the turbocharger input with a short length of hose. The exhaust (drive) side of the turbos are tan in color. No paint blistering or peeling. The compression (driven) side is white as expected.

With the four blade 22x25p Hy Torqs, 2100 @ 23-24mph was a typical cruise speed, if conditions allowed. I'll try that RPM, up to 2400 RPM and see what ground speed I get, so I can compare apples to apples.

I am confident that these props are less loading than the four blades, and also in my ability to use common sense not to run around north of 2400 and watch my fuel gauges drop to "E".

Its likely that the right answer is to have the Hy Torqs tuned by a "propeller artist" to bring my RPMs up 100rpms as you've suggested before, and simply store this $1800 set below in the unfortunate event that I need them. In the meantime, my sense of curiosity and hopeful nature will be waiting to do a GPH and MPG calculation to compare relative economies.

Lastly - I never mentioned this before but the 22"x25p factory set would "break loose" and shudder badly - never was certain if it was cavitation or transmission slippage, actually - if you were to throw the throttles forward to WOT from a dead stop. So far I have yet to experience this with the 22"x23s.

More testing. No ridiculous RPMs. Thanks for the explanation.
 
Ok.....I give up. The source I was using just showed the inboard transmission and not v-drives.

But it is a moot point on boats like the one in question. No matter what the final ratio in A or B settings is, the set op on 400/410/450......and any of the diesel powered boats is that the engines turn so slow (26-2800 rpm) and have so much torque that Sea Ray used the 2.5:1 ratio gearing. That means the prop shaft is turning slow enough that the difference in ratios makes no real difference in performance and the boats are spec'd with the same prop on both sides. The gas engines, however, are a different story. They turn something like 4200 rpm and have 2.0:1 or lower gearing and that makes the prop turn about twice as fast as on a diesel boat. and on hulls like the 340DA, they put .5" more pitch on one side than on the other.

Thanks for keeping me straight...............

FYI: My ZF transmissions say on the tag 'Ratio: A = 1.64, B = 1.6' and it is consistent port and starboard.
 
The A and B indicate how the shifting linkage is hooked up to the shift arms on the gear. One way the transmission's output shaft turns forward; the other way, in reverse, while the input shaft is turning the same direction. That allows counter-rotating shafts with engines that have same rotation. Your port and stbd transmission are identical. However, there is a slight ration difference between forward and reverse or A & B positions. The difference is miniscule and with 24-2800 rpm input rotation you never know there is a difference. Sea Ray propulsion engineering people have determined that on higher rpm engines like the Merc. 8.1's, whose WOT is 4600 RPM., that the ratio difference was large enough that they compensated for it by pitching the props differently. For example, the 340DA with 8.1's has 1/2" more pitch on one side than the other. The amount of pitch change needed on a 400/410 is so small......like .2"......that it is difficult for a prop guy to do. If one wishes to get that precise you can do about as much good by removing a little of the cup.
 
If you want to search for one anal prop guy, search OSD9's posts. I don't know another man more anal at getting his props tweaked. He had the same boat and engines as yours and had boost gauges installed to monitor pressure along with speed and rpms. You could save a lot of time and money duplicating his setup.

I'm not chicken little saying the sky is falling, but a boat is not like a truck. You wouldn't load up a semi, put it in first gear and drive up a mountain all day long with it floored and not expect bad things to happen sooner or later. Just cruising under ideal conditions @ 2400 rpms with everything tweaked right, you're running at 85% capacity. That's a lot to ask of an engine. Knock it up to 2600 rpms and now you're at 93% and the turbos are screaming at close to 20,000 rpms. If you put your hand on the turbo at this load, your skin would melt off. These engines can take a lot, but we're already giving them a lot right off the bat. It's guys like Frank that save guys like me a lot of heart ache and wasted money trying to re-invent the wheel on a recreational boat.
 

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