HOW IMPORTANT, is freshwater cooling???

[D-Sill-D]

I have owned a 1988 Sea Ray Seville since new. :thumbsup:

I am going to purchase a newer and larger Sea Ray. :smt038

How important is fresh water cooling? :huh:

I live in the Northwest and plan to use my new boat in both fresh and salt water.

I am noticing many used boats that are for sale, seem to have been used, exclusively, in salt water, without fresh water cooling.

How well can an engine that lacks fresh water cooling hold up that is used exclusively in salt water? :huh:

Is salt water cruising and fresh water cooling a must for the long term health of your engines? :huh:

Accordingly, Northwest cruising generally requires "hassle free" (flip a switch) heating. Am I wrong in assuming that "hassle free" heating is only possible with fresh water cooled engines?

Thanks to all, D-Sill-D

 

[katricol]

Fresh water cooled is the better choice, but I have had, and know of plenty raw water cooled boats with a fresh-water-flush system that last for years. If you flush them every time you get back to the dock the engines will last. Engines that have salt water sit in them for entire seasons won't last as long . The heating systems (I believe) will operate just as good on either boat.

 

[D-Sill-D]

Thank you....it sounds as though the condition of salt water based, used engines, w/o fresh water cooling, will be dependent, of course, on the care the owners have given....that moves us to surveys.....what is common, and or, realistic when relying on a survey????

Could an engine survey detect, with accuracy, and any guarantee, the condition of engines, that have been wet slipped in salt???

Forgive me if this is a routine procedure and a routine expectation, I know, really nothing, about an engine/boat survey?????:huh:

 

[Nehalennia]

It will depend on how routine and frequently you flush after use? Will your new boat be trailered or moored? Will it be moored in fresh or salt water?

I like having my boat fresh water cooled to prolong it's life and give confidence to the next owner that it's been taken care of and corrosion minimized.

A proper survey will give you tremendous information about boat you're considering.

 

[D-Sill-D]

Thanks Tood,

A fellow North westerner, no less :grin:.....How about the heating issue?? Can you expect, "flip a switch" heating with raw water cooling??

I have been told not, by a dealer, he told me that I would have to purchase a diesel furnace, or some type of auxiliary heating unit, which I would like to avoid at this point.

Are surveyors "certified" or "bonded" to your knowledge??:huh:

 

[Nehalennia]

Thanks Tood,

A fellow North westerner, no less :grin:.....How about the heating issue?? Can you expect, "flip a switch" heating with raw water cooling??

I have been told not, by a dealer, he told me that I would have to purchase a diesel furnace, or some type of auxiliary heating unit, which I would like to avoid at this point.

Are surveyors "certified" or "bonded" to your knowledge??:huh:

I have hyrdronic heat that is using the coolant (like in a car) while underway for heat. It works great.


I used Reisner McEwen surveyors.
http://www.surveyormarine.com/default.asp

 

[D-Sill-D]

Thanks Todd,

I will check both of those links.

 

[comsnark]

Interesting.

All I know is that there are an awful lot of boats running in salt that are not fresh water cooled. Of course. . lots of riser/manifold replacements are done as well.

I think FWC is a good option; and you should get it if you buy the boat new. I would view it as an important feature (not a mandatory requirement) in a used boat. I say this because at least in my area, FWC was not that common when I was shopping.

 

[rcknecht]

I prefer FWC in salt water. Even with FWC, the raw water will run through the manifold, riser, and elbow... Some FWC systems only go through the elbow. The maintenance on FWC system is no less if not more than RWC. I prefer FWC because I expect to get a longer life out of my engines. I don't believe there is an easy way to determine the condition of engine coolant passage ways on a RWC engine. I would just say that if you hit 1,000 hours on a RWC engine, you are nearing the its life expectancy, assuming the previous owner did not run FW through the engine after every use...

 

[D-Sill-D]

Interesting.

All I know is that there are an awful lot of boats running in salt that are not fresh water cooled. Of course. . lots of riser/manifold replacements are done as well.

I think FWC is a good option; and you should get it if you buy the boat new. I would view it as an important feature (not a mandatory requirement) in a used boat. I say this because at least in my area, FWC was not that common when I was shopping.

Thanks Comsnark

Have you had any experience with a "riser/manifold" replacement?

Do you know, outside of the "riser/manifold" how much harm the RWC can cause to the rest of the engine, assuming the RWC has worked properly and normal ?

 

[D-Sill-D]

I prefer FWC in salt water. Even with FWC, the raw water will run through the manifold, riser, and elbow... Some FWC systems only go through the elbow. The maintenance on FWC system is no less if not more than RWC. I prefer FWC because I expect to get a longer life out of my engines. I don't believe there is an easy way to determine the condition of engine coolant passage ways on a RWC engine. I would just say that if you hit 1,000 hours on a RWC engine, you are nearing the its life expectancy, assuming the previous owner did not run FW through the engine after every use...

Thank you rcknecht,

I am looking at used. There seem to be several available that have been slipped in salt. Most appear to be RWC.

I have always thought the FWC was mandatory for the Northwest, at least, but maybe a "riser/manifold" replacement is not a "big deal" and the rest of the engine is not affected either way. I don't know.

I am also trying to find out what kind of a chore it is to have FWC installed after market.

I do know, I appreciate everyone that has taken the time to reply. This Club is great. :thumbsup:

 

[Hornblower]

D-Sill-D,

Intellectually I think FWC is the way to go, If you asked me a month or so ago I would’ve told you I was sorry that I did the conversion. Now that everything is working fine I’m happy that at least the block is FWC. If you're interested in my saga you can read about it here: http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34955

Would I do it again? Now that I have a much better understanding of engine cooling and so many of the pitfalls to check for when doing a conversion, I probably would. But only if the engine was new or with very low hours and I was sure I wouldn’t be upgrading any time soon (I’m already having dreams of owning a 310DA :smt001).

 

[Nehalennia]

It's a $2-3K per engine big deal. The FWC will extend the intervals this is needed to be done.

Thank you rcknecht,

I am looking at used. There seem to be several available that have been slipped in salt. Most appear to be RWC.

I have always thought the FWC was mandatory for the Northwest, at least, but maybe a "riser/manifold" replacement is not a "big deal" and the rest of the engine is not affected either way. I don't know.

I am also trying to find out what kind of a chore it is to have FWC installed after market.

I do know, I appreciate everyone that has taken the time to reply. This Club is great. :thumbsup:

 

[fc3]

Closed cooling is better because it keeps the block free of sediment, facilitates more even cooling, reduces hot spots on the cylinder heads and also permits a higher operating temperature. That said, the advantages are at the margins. That is the sediment problem is only if you run the boat in really dirty water. Flushing with the block drains open should remove most of it. The hot spot issue isn't usually a problem unless you're running on the ragged performance edge where detonation could be an issue. Higher coolant temps are slightly more thermodynamically efficient. All said, it's an advantage, but a tiny one. The one major advantage is if you install a heater that runs from engine coolant, the heater will last much longer if you run coolant though it, not raw water.

Sea Ray did offer those heaters as a regular factory option, but discontinued doing so. They had problems with leaks. I believe that was so because raw water, particularly salt water, damaged the core. The one on Just Ducky is fine, and that's probably because her engines have closed cooling.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[dpmulvey]

If you decide to buy RWC, I believe I have read the cut off point for conversion is somewhere around 200 hours; maybe fewer. If you get to "the boat" and it has RWC, it's well worth renting a fiberscope camera to check the innards.

 

[D-Sill-D]

If you decide to buy RWC, I believe I have read the cut off point for conversion is somewhere around 200 hours; maybe fewer. If you get to "the boat" and it has RWC, it's well worth renting a fiberscope camera to check the innards.

:wow: ...Wow...fiberscope camera...:huh: I have never heard of a fiberscope camera...really interesting...what will I be able to see???:smt038

 

[D-Sill-D]

D-Sill-D,

Intellectually I think FWC is the way to go, If you asked me a month or so ago I would’ve told you I was sorry that I did the conversion. Now that everything is working fine I’m happy that at least the block is FWC. If you're interested in my saga you can read about it here: http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34955

Would I do it again? Now that I have a much better understanding of engine cooling and so many of the pitfalls to check for when doing a conversion, I probably would. But only if the engine was new or with very low hours and I was sure I wouldn’t be upgrading any time soon (I’m already having dreams of owning a 310DA :smt001).

Thank you Hornblower for your thoughts ....Your patience are beyond admirable, actually, "light year's" beyond mine, I would have been wanting to do this to someone :smt021 after the first week....

 

[D-Sill-D]

Closed cooling is better because it keeps the block free of sediment, facilitates more even cooling, reduces hot spots on the cylinder heads and also permits a higher operating temperature. That said, the advantages are at the margins. That is the sediment problem is only if you run the boat in really dirty water. Flushing with the block drains open should remove most of it. The hot spot issue isn't usually a problem unless you're running on the ragged performance edge where detonation could be an issue. Higher coolant temps are slightly more thermodynamically efficient. All said, it's an advantage, but a tiny one. The one major advantage is if you install a heater that runs from engine coolant, the heater will last much longer if you run coolant though it, not raw water.

Sea Ray did offer those heaters as a regular factory option, but discontinued doing so. They had problems with leaks. I believe that was so because raw water, particularly salt water, damaged the core. The one on Just Ducky is fine, and that's probably because her engines have closed cooling.

Best regards,
Frank

Thank you Frank,

Good advice, I am definitely leaning toward FWC....poor heating is not an option, with whom, I live....no heat...no fun boating...:smt101 most of the time...:grin:

 

[D-Sill-D]

Closed cooling is better because it keeps the block free of sediment, facilitates more even cooling, reduces hot spots on the cylinder heads and also permits a higher operating temperature. That said, the advantages are at the margins. That is the sediment problem is only if you run the boat in really dirty water. Flushing with the block drains open should remove most of it. The hot spot issue isn't usually a problem unless you're running on the ragged performance edge where detonation could be an issue. Higher coolant temps are slightly more thermodynamically efficient. All said, it's an advantage, but a tiny one. The one major advantage is if you install a heater that runs from engine coolant, the heater will last much longer if you run coolant though it, not raw water.

Sea Ray did offer those heaters as a regular factory option, but discontinued doing so. They had problems with leaks. I believe that was so because raw water, particularly salt water, damaged the core. The one on Just Ducky is fine, and that's probably because her engines have closed cooling.

Best regards,
Frank

It's a $2-3K per engine big deal. The FWC will extend the intervals this is needed to be done.

Thanks Todd....2 to 3 K per, is a BIG DEAL...good to know before making any offers...:smt038
I have looked at the survey website you sent...they look good, interesting business, I had never thought about all that .....I haven't had the time to contact them...

 

[dpmulvey]

:wow: ...Wow...fiberscope camera...:huh: I have never heard of a fiberscope camera...really interesting...what will I be able to see???:smt038

Think of it as a colonoscopy without the drugs or embarassment.

From fiberscope(dot)net.

"
Fiberscope or Flexible borescopes
A fiberscope (or fiber scope, fiber optic scope, flexscope, flexi Scope) is a flexible inspection device that consist of fiber optic bundles with an eyepiece at one end, and a lens at the other. Usually it has 2 type of bundles: fiber optic light bundle (for illumination of objects) and fiber optic image bundle to relay image to eyepiece. The lens is often a wide-angle lens, and the eyepiece is occasionally instead connected to a camera. Fiberscopes (fiber optic scope) has some very important advantages and features such as FLEXIBILITY, higher length (then rigid borescope) and ARTICULATION capabilities. Articulation mean that inspector can manipulate a tip of the fiberscope and pass along the corners, angled tubes and hard to reach areas as well as inspect object from different angles. There could be 1, 2 or 4 way articulation fiberscopes (fiber optic scope). Usually small diameter fiberscopes like 4mm diameter has only 2 way articulation. You will be able still to see all what you need and all angles but needed to rotate scope.

All fiberscopes (flexible borescopes) introduce a certain amount of image distortion and depends on fiber diameter and amount of fibers in the image bundle.
It is used for inspection work, often to examine small components in tightly packed equipment, when the inspector cannot easily access the part requiring inspection.
Fiberscopes (fiber optic scopes) are used in aircraft inspection and maintenance, engines machining, computer repair, espionage, locksmithing, safecracking, and computer forensics, among many other uses.
There are different brands of flexible boroscopes, such as Provision borescopes, Karl Storz borescopes, Olympus borescopes, Richard Wolf borescopes.
Boroscopes and Fiberscopes are mainly used for Non Destructive Testing, abbreviated as NDT, NDT Equipment."

The Navy uses them all the time. They are pretty incredible. Pull the plugs and check scoring on the cylinder walls. Pull the thermostat and examine the internals of the cooling system. You are pretty much only limited by your imagination and your wallet.