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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Summer Fun II, Mar 6, 2015.
I'm curious what kind of problems you had. What did the list look like?
I didn't say they weren't Frank.. Did I ? . :smt021
It sounded like he was crying, because I said something negative about Sea Ray pricing a 22ft boat at $53K.
We all have our big boy pants on .. Don't We ? .
Woody, the thread is long but I posted most of it in the official 240da thread.
But I'll make a short list,
holes drilled in the hull for overboard discharges were drilled in the wrong place, covered up and re drilled. Never was disclosed to me at time of sale. Of course after the boat started aging, and I was waxing I found them.
Windshield has never lined up correctly, walk through window never has lined up correctly.
The helm dash was damaged and repaired, never was disclosed to me before sale. Of course after aging the repair is an eye sore.
The galley was not installed correctly, and needed to adjusted to be able to fit the table in the vee berth to make the bed.
The a/c pan was installed incorrectly and water flowed over the edge and would soak the mid cabin bedding.
The shower sump would never work correctly, left the carpet wet many times.
The water tank fill line wasn't tightened correctly, wet the interior
You get the idea, there were many more small inconvient things that just broke. A big item that ticked me off was I wanted to install a anchor windlass, Sea Ray threatened to void my hull warranty if I had one installed. MM was going to do the work. So I installed an "approved" anchor roller that Sea Ray approved and sold to me. It was useless, couldn't store an anchor on it, and the anchor line rubbed on the edge of the roller because the tie off cleat is on the side. (Lost an anchor on that one).
I fixed all of it myself. All Sea Ray did was warn me about voiding my warranty. Kinda funny as they didn't fix anything anyways. Haha
I had some Mercruiser issues that Sea Ray didn't side with me on, so I had a friend mercruiser tech, help me fix the slugishness of the motor.
I am sorry to hear all that went wrong with your boat, it sounds as if a nightmare. I have to be honest it is completely different than my experience with the 260 I bought. I had some minor issues that marine max / sea ray took care of no problem. Marine Max would charge a 150 fee to come to the boat (it was in a different marina than theirs so there was a fee to hop in the car for 10 minutes and come over but that seems to be the norm in boat land). The only major issue I had was bad oxygen sensors on my third season with the boat ( a known issue with merc-cruiser engines) which the handled even though supposedly the warranty had ended ( I got taller risers out of that at no cost to me). Did you find these issues outside the warranty period?
I have deleted most of the original quoted post here, only to keep this post itself shorter.
The case you put forward here is extremely well presented, and I personally thank you for taking the time to do so.
The boating industry over the last 5-6 years has been decimated, in Australia, we are lucky to have even had our manufacturers survive at all. And the manufacturers of the larger boats, now openly only build bespoke, no more having stock on hand. Boat shows now have boats on display that they have just completed for customers.
At the Sydney boat show last year I was looking at a 55' SUV, when the guy sitting at the helm, with a grin from ear to ear, said to me, this is my boat. Yes I wouldn't mind it either!
No, it's my boat, this is the first time I have seen it finished.
I then realised it was his boat, his wife was out the back checking out the cockpit.
The point I am getting to with this, is as has been previously said in this thread. You cannot drop the numbers you are producing, and maintain the same production costs. Volumes give effectiveness and price benefits. But those days are not here now.
Like many on here, I own and run my own business. The last several years have been tough, we are not achieving the volumes we were, and have had to downsize many strategies.
Getting back to your reply, in context, the market sets the price, not the manufacturer or seller. So are they too expensive, no, otherwise the market would not pay, and boats would not sell at all.
Boats can be a long term investment, my first two boats, the first I had about 12 years, the 2nd about 8 years. This one, now on 4 years. Like most people I don't keep my cars that long.
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Thanks for posting...
I wouldn't be too concerned about the thread title. It's clearly more frustration with the industry as a whole than any specific manufacturer. In other words, "It's not you"...
True, being a public company does show general profit numbers. But, surely you don't think that represents anything. They can manipulate the numbers and expense out profits...They can even suck it out in salaries / bonuses... At no time did I consider the profit margins would make it to the bottom line.
True again, it is killing affordability, equally of a concern to me is how much financing is going on. Do you care to share those numbers? ....Because I'm concerned about the economy as a whole and this would be an indicator of trouble.
Back to affordability for a second. I think this is a clear representation of the dwindling middle class. If you took the ave. households, using statistical averages, what household income would be fiscally sound to purchase a new 25', 30', 40', 50'? It would be interesting to graph these over the years as a percentage of working households.
It is funny that this thread has come up as we have been having discussions about boat prices and the seemingly changing demographic of the average boaters. In the last 15 years at our marina, we have found that younger people are more and more absent as far as being the principle owner of a vessel. The average age of the boat owners in our area seems to be far greater than a decade ago. We know that price obviously plays a role, but think that student loans, house debt, wages, and even jokingly discussed a potential steady decline in the younger generation necessary aptitudes (mechanical, general patience) for boating. The boat pricing seems to be the inevitable afterbirth of an industry (production of pleasure boats) that has received a crippling blow in 2007-08 and is still attempting to recover. I would love to hear others give some idea to whether the loss of younger boat owners is just unique to our area.
Nope, well within. Thanks for the thoughts.
I realize my situation was out of the ordinary. But it happens. My opinion is, a manafacturer is defined by how they treat the customer, that bought a Friday afternoon, or Monday morning boat.
I am an ex business owner (by choice), but never, ever did a customer have an issue with my craftsmanship or quality, that I wouldn't take care of. Even if it cost me money, to make it right!
In my area, there are young folks all over the lake, in wakeboard boats that cost big money. Well, to clairify, they are in Daddys wakeboard boat......haha
No disrespect intended here Mike but there has to be more to this story.....were you just dealing with the selling dealer? You don't seem like a guy that would stop there...were you dealing with corporate? I don't understand why a manufacturer would just disregard obvious issues with a boat that was under warranty. How far up the ladder did you go?
Wayne, I hope you lose your subscription to SeaRay Living Magazine
Sorry, but the definition of value is what a willing buyer will pay and a willing seller accept in an arm's length transaction. The problem with finding true market data is a constant problem for appraisers, who also can use depreciated value calculations, or value based on revenue cash flow net present value.
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You DO have a dealer right in Jack London Square! Sun Country Marine has been there for about a year.
Yes, I understand and agree that your definition is the generally agreed upon definition of market value. In this thread we're not necessarily talking about market value in that way...as in, "Hey, I'm looking at 2005 300DA...is this a good price?" Your model would be a good response to that question. This thread, and my comment, are more about the overall value of new boats in today's economy and your definition doesn't really establish what we're defining as "value" in the context of this thread.
Wayne inadvertently brought up a bigger question... are today's boat prices able to sustain the industry and preserve the lifestyle that all of us here cherish? I understand the economies of scale and Sea Ray Corporate gave a nice response but that doesn't get around the fact that there is a huge affordability gap in the boat models and that the more expensive boats just aren't worth the price...in my opinion. You have the generally affordable entry level SPX's with outboards then you jump to the SLX's and SD's and those boats really are not affordable or, in my opinion, a good value for a large percent of people. I get why they are priced the way they are but that does not make them a good value. It means they are priced so the manufacturer stays in business. Pricing to stay in business does not automatically make it a good value.
I looked at all of the new Sea Ray models in great detail at our boat show last month and I love Sea Ray so I'm not bashing, just being honest...the new models just don't have the quality of Sea Ray's built before 2012 or so. The new Sundecks just look cheap inside and out -- not even close to the quality of their predacessors. I'm not commenting the styling which is subjective, I mean the materials are lesser than those used in the early 2000's models in all regards. The SPX line is on par with Bayliner....sorry, it's not impressive at all. The old Sport line, up to about the 2013 model year was much better quality than the new SPX's. The boat industry is a tough market now and there are very few options for good quality, affordable boats in the 22'-26' range. You get above 26' and they prices just don't make sense to me at all from a consumer standpoint -- especially in the SLX and cruiser models.
Tonka, I agree with you fully on your statement here. This is in a format that I can understand. I also concur with your observation about eye ball quality. Even when I was aboard the L-650 Fly, the boat is beautiful looking. I don't like the styling, but I can appreciate the boat in general. Now, even at that price point, my eye ball didn't see the quality I would have expected aboard a boat of this stature, and advertising.
+1:thumbsup: True market value IS what a buyer is willing to pay, regardless of how knowledgeable or sophisticated they are or are not. Even the depreciated value calculations mean absolutely nothing if there isn't a single person willing to part with that amount of money for that particular product. I've had people bidding homes up past the listed and appraised prices because of "market conditions". I've also had to sell homes for less that I've had into them, because of "market conditions".
Actually, the definition of value is the same for brand new as well as used. The issue that I see from reading this thread, is that "price" and "value" are being treated as having the same meaning. Granted in many cases, particularly sales of used assets, the two are equal. That is mainly because market forces shape used prices, and used values as tabulated by entities like NADA are based on market surveys. New equipment prices (MSRP) are based on the manufacturer's cost and profit expectations, as well as a bit of "good will". Good will in this case is a nice way of saying brand value and how much more the market will bear. In a new asset transaction (and it doesn't matter whether it is a ship to shore crane, or a Sea Ray) price does not equate to value until an actual sale is consummated at a negotiated price established. Over time the number of actual sales, or lack of sales, will bring price into line with value.
This is a good debate but I would argue that we're not treating price and value equally. In fact, we're saying the opposite...the prices of today's boats are not a good value in that you get much less for a lot more money. I completely understand your argument from the standpoint of an economics class. However, using Frank's explanation about the cost of the molds... in order for Sea Ray to keep the prices even close to affordable or in line with the competition they need to cut costs in other areas to make up for the increasing cost of the molds. They need to trim labor costs, material costs, etc. and when you cut those areas you sacrifice quality. When you are forced to charge more for lesser quality due to economies of scale, that is not a good value for the price or for the consumer. Again, not from an economics class standpoint, from a common sense standpoint.
When you factor in interest, depreciation and the cost to operate a brand new boat it does not make much sense unless you have enough disposable income that it doesn't matter to you. From that standpoint, you are correct, it's a good value for that person because they don't care.
Common sence from my view point is that each model should create it's own value/price. Meaning don't rob Peter to pay Paul. If a model doesn't sell, drop it. If the mold cost X dollars and you don't sell enough boats to support the mold, drop it. Why offer so many models? I understand Sea Ray built it's self on 2foot itis. That business model doesn't seem to apply anymore.
This is nothing new, new or used, it's the same. Whatever x$$$ buys, it still boils down to having the money or not. That's the problem....disposable income is shrinking.