Guns and Boats

FireIsland1

FireIsland1

New Member
Apr 22, 2009
218
long island
Boat Info
370da
Engines
7.4's
Last year while on a trip, friends of mine went a bit to fast through a no wake area causing some boats in a marina to get rocked. No real damage was done but that didn't stop a few guys with too much beer in them from leaving the marina and chasing down the cause of the wakes. They would not accept the apoligies given even though offers were made to pay for any damages, which there were none. Things got ugly fast and they attempted to board my friends boat. Being x military that just wasn't goint to happen. He was able to convince the boarding party that any attempt to board his boat was not going to be a healthy decision. There were calls made on vhf and things calmed down. No real harm was done but that got me thinking. what if he wasn't able to stop them from boarding his boat? Are we properly prepared to defend out family and our property?
So here's my questions.

?1 what would you do
?2 what is the law
?3 what about interstate travel and guns
?4 have any of you ever had this type of problem
?5 what type of protection is best
 
Fire, IMHO a lot of the "correctness" to your answers would depend on a number of factors which include:
1..the size of your boat. If your boat has sleeping and toilet facilities it becomes your "home" while you are aboard and as such, tends to offer you more legal right to use force to defend yourself.
2..what other avenues did you take? Did you try to escape by outrunning, call for help, warn the intruders off, etc.
3..disparity of force. If you and your admiral are alone on your boat and several guys are trying to board, you have more rights due to the disparity of force than if it was just one guy trying to board. Also, if the guy(s) trying to board are armed with any kind of weapon (knife, baton, oar, board, club, etc.) you have the right to use more force.

?1 what would you do. In the situation you described I would have tried to outrun them. If I couldn't do that, I would try to evade them, all the while calling for help on the VHF and/or cell phone.


?2 what is the law? This varies from state to state.

?3 what about interstate travel and guns. Again, this varies from state to state. Many states recognize the concealed weapons permit (CWP) from another state and will allow you to carry. Several east coast states and a few others do not. Canada and Mexico do not allow importation of handguns. (Canada does under some very, very limited circumstances. I've done it so I know it can happen). Canada will allow long guns for hunting or target shooting, but I think permits are needed in advance.

?4 have any of you ever had this type of problem. I've never had a problem with having a gun on board but my boat is my home when I'm aboard.

One thing to keep in mind. If you keep a gun on board and find yourself in a situation where you felt it was the only thing you could do to protect yourself or someone else on board, and you can articulate your fears very clearly, then any action you took with a firearm would likely be ruled as justifiable. When you travel with a gun, whether it's in your boat or your car, keep it hidden. Don't advertise that you have a gun by leaving a holster or ammo visible in the boat or car.

?5 what type of protection is best. This is going to open a real can of worms, but I feel a .38 special revolver is about all you need. It's manageable, they're reliable, they almost never malfunction, and the guy on the receiving end will know you mean business.

Others will say you need a 12 gauge shotgun or .45 auto or some other major weapon. I keep a stainless steel S&W Model 60 on board when we're there because of those reasons and that I want something my wife can comfortably shoot if I'm disabled or dead.

To answer this question: "Are we properly prepared to defend out family and our property?", the answer to that has to include not only the "I have a gun" answer, but also the "I'm mentally prepared to take a life to protect my life or the life of someone else on my boat." Anyone can own a gun. Not everyone is capable of taking a life and dealing with the Post Shooting Trauma that will follow.
 
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Gofirstclass said:
Fire, IMHO a lot of the "correctness" to your answers would depend on a number of factors which include:
1..the size of your boat. If your boat has sleeping and toilet facilities it becomes your "home" while you are aboard and as such, tends to offer you more legal right to use force to defend yourself.
2..what other avenues did you take? Did you try to escape by outrunning, call for help, warn the intruders off, etc.
3..disparity of force. If you and your admiral are alone on your boat and several guys are trying to board, you have more rights due to the disparity of force than if it was just one guy trying to board. Also, if the guy(s) trying to board are armed with any kind of weapon (knife, baton, oar, board, club, etc.) you have the right to use more force.

?1 what would you do. In the situation you described I would have tried to outrun them. If I couldn't do that, I would try to evade them, all the while calling for help on the VHF and/or cell phone.


?2 what is the law? This varies from state to state.

?3 what about interstate travel and guns. Again, this varies from state to state. Many states recognize the concealed weapons permit (CWP) from another state and will allow you to carry. Several east coast states and a few others do not. Canada and Mexico do not allow importation of handguns. (Canada does under some very, very limited circumstances. I've done it so I know it can happen). Canada will allow long guns for hunting or target shooting, but I think permits are needed in advance.

?4 have any of you ever had this type of problem. I've never had a problem with having a gun on board but my boat is my home when I'm aboard.

One thing to keep in mind. If you keep a gun on board and find yourself in a situation where you felt it was the only thing you could do to protect yourself or someone else on board, and you can articulate your fears very clearly, then any action you took with a firearm would likely be ruled as justifiable. When you travel with a gun, whether it's in your boat or your car, keep it hidden. Don't advertise that you have a gun by leaving a holster or ammo visible in the boat or car.

?5 what type of protection is best. This is going to open a real can of worms, but I feel a .38 special revolver is about all you need. It's manageable, they're reliable, they almost never malfunction, and the guy on the receiving end will know you mean business.

Others will say you need a 12 gauge shotgun or .45 auto or some other major weapon. I keep a stainless steel S&W Model 60 on board when we're there because of those reasons and that I want something my wife can comfortably shoot if I'm disabled or dead.

To answer this question: "Are we properly prepared to defend out family and our property?", the answer to that has to include not only the "I have a gun" answer, but also the "I'm mentally prepared to take a life to protect my life or the life of someone else on my boat." Anyone can own a gun. Not everyone is capable of taking a life and dealing with the Post Shooting Trauma that will follow.
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Awesome post! You have my vote!
 
Excellent post, I always view firearms the same as I a fire extinguisher and a life raft... I hope never to use any of them but.... I carry all of them for safety.
EXPRESSBOY
 
A concealed carry class will be the first step in understand your states laws and rights. However you really need to take several steps further as noted. If you do need to defend yourself, you and your family may be alive however a whole other can of worms may open up. Be sure, know the law and by all means protect yourself
 
When overseas all US Military personnel are subject to ROE's "Rules of Engagement". That's a list of steps and situations where a return response or action is considered "Legal and Responsible". The first on that list is a Statement that says "You have an inherent Right to Self Defense. Which basically means if you feel your life is in immediate danger you may act appropriately. That being said, we read every day about bodega owners in the city who shot a "Gomer" in his store after he was held up and was only charged for illegal posession of a weapon. What ever you do you need to know that you will be held responsible for your actions! Good Job First Class!
 
This is a good thread and a great response by GoFirstClass. And it's something I've been thinking about lately since the purchase of our 280DA a couple of months ago.

I live in Maryland where there is no concealed carry permit to speak of. :smt013 I'm a hunter and have various protection items in my house. But what about the boat? I will be mainly in Maryland and Virginia waters. Because of what GoFirstClass said, my boat being a "home", do I have a right to carry a firearm on board?

I live in a great area, but things like what the FireIsland said give cause for concern. And staying on the hook overnight somewhere without much of anything to protect my family and boat is also of concern.

Thanks,
 
Spot said:
If you do need to defend yourself, you and your family may be alive however a whole other can of worms may open up. Be sure, know the law and by all means protect yourself
Click to expand...
Most jurisdictions use basically the same standard to determine if a shooting was justifiable. The shooter must be able to clearly articulate what was in his mind at the time he was forced to pull the trigger.

Then the authorities will make a determination as to whether the bad guy had three things: Ability, Opportunity, and placed the shooter in jeopardy.

Ability is often fairly simple to determine. Was there such a disparty of force that the shooter felt he was in danger. That disparity can be in terms of numbers of people present, i.e., one good guy vs. several bad guys. Or it could be in terms of weapons present, i.e. the good guy has no weapons or has a knife, the bad guy(s) have knives or guns. If the good guy and lone bad guy each have a gun, the bad guy stilll has the ability to harm the good guy.

Opportunity is also fairly clear. Was the bad guy in close enough proximity, with a weapon, to do harm to the shooter. Opportunity doesn't necessarily have to involve a weapon. If the disparity of force is large enough, i.e. a large man against a woman of average size, that would likely be sufficient.

Jeopardy can be a little more difficult to ascertain. It basically boils down to whether the presence of the bad guy(s), with whatever weapons they might have at the time, created a picture in the mind of the shooter that he was in danger of IMMINENT grave bodily harm.

Once the authorities determine that the bad guy had the ability to do harm to the shooter, had the opportunity to do harm to the shooter, and placed the shooter in jeopardy, then the finding is usually pretty clear.

A lot of these factors will be determined from what the shooter (good guy) says when questioned. If he can't articulate well and says something like "He was coming at me so I capped his ass", he's not likely going to get off easily.

The flip side of articulation would be something like...

"It was dark in the house/boat/RV. I was there with my wife and two kids. I heard the loud knocking at the door at 3:00 a.m. so I got my handgun out of the night stand and went to the door. I could hear two male voices talking but couldn't understand what they were saying. I asked who it was and one of the voices said "Open the damn door." I again asked who it was and what they wanted but got no reply. I said in a loud voice "Get out of here, I have a gun and I'm prepared to use it."

One of the male voices said "Yeah, they all say that. Prove it arsehole." They two of them then started kicking on the door and eventually, after several kicks, the lock broke and the door swung into the house.

When they started kicking the door I took a position of concealment behind a couch about 15' from the door, but where I could clearly see the door. At that point I had asked what they wanted and advised them I had a gun and was prepared to use it. I had no idea what they wanted to do if they were able to get into the house but I was afraid for my life and the lives of my wife and children.

When the door burst open, the closest of the two men charged into the living room. I fired two shots to the center of his body in an effort to stop him from coming any further. He fell to the floor in the living room and the second male came into the living room, stepped over the body of the first male and looked around. I could clearly see something dark in his left hand. I couldn't recognize what it was so, fearing it might have been a gun or large knife, I fired two shots the the center of the body of the second man to stop him. He continued coming into the living room and appeared unfazed by the shots. I thought he might have been wearing body armor so I aimed for his head and pulled the trigger. He fell instantly to the floor.

After a few moments to let my heart rate and breathing slow down, I turned on a light to see what the scene looked like. Only then did I realize the second man was carrying a black flashlight.

I then called 911 and waited for the police to arrive. While waiting for the police I worked on calming and reassuring my wife and two children who had been awakened by the commotion and gun shots."

You can see from these two vastly different "articulations" that a coroner's inquest or whatever legal proceeding will judge the actions of the shooter, that the second one will be much easier for them to determine that the bad guys had ability, opportunity and place the victim shooter in jeopardy.

GFC
 
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It's a scary thought that making a wake in a "no wake zone" could possibly escalate to pulling out guns. I can see it, the op's friend pulls a gun to prevent a ass kicking, so the drunks pull a gun and shoot him in self defense. Maybe when the drunks flipped off the op's friend he shouldn't have flipped them back. You didn't say that happened but I think we have to do what we can to prevent situations from happening even if that just means taking it easy in the "no wake zones".
 
AKBASSKING said:
A ss 44mag with a 6"barrel is what I carry. Mostly for bears, but if a group of guys tried to board my boat, there would be some extra halibut bait in the bucket.....
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What's the shot on a grizz with that 44mag, head, shoulder or do you just hope to sting them anywhere to back them off. Do they back off? Do you handload for them?
 
Although I find it entertaining to shoot guns (at a range) I do not like them around the house. I would pull out my 12ga flare gun and let 'em rip.
 
The best piece of advice I can give here is if you have a handgun, take the CC training class for your state (if they have one) even if you don't plan on applying for the actual permit.

They go over all state laws and what you can and can't do. I recently took mine and was suprised at the inconsistiency between different bordering state handgun laws and my home state.

Also suprised how some of the laws don't make much sense at all but you better know them or you could end up in a world of trouble.
 
Great comments by all!! GFC has a great explanation.
This just seems appropriate here. Sorry if it's a highjack.

In WWII, Japan 's highest ranking naval officer was Isoruku Yamamoto.
Although he was Japanese, and his loyalties were unquestionably with The Empire,
he studied for many years in America, graduating from Harvard University.
There is an oft-repeated (and sometimes disputed) quote attributed to him
regarding the possibility of any nation taking a war to American soil:
"You cannot invade the mainland United States . There would be a rifle
behind every blade of grass."
Here is why he was correct:
America 's Hunters.
The World's Largest Army.

The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without
someone getting killed. That's great, considering there were over 600,000
hunters that got permits this year. Allow me to restate that number.
Over the last two months, the eighth largest army in the world - more men
under arms than Iran ; more than France and Germany combined - deployed to
the woods of a single American state to keep the deer population under
control.
But that pales in comparison to the 750,000 who are in the woods of
Pennsylvania this week. Michigan’s 700,000 hunters have now returned home. Toss
in a quarter million hunters in West Virginia , and it is literally the
case that the hunters of those four states alone would comprise the largest
army in the world. And that is just FOUR states. The total population of registered hunters in America today ranges from 23 million to 43.7 million individuals. (Based on annual data provided by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.)
As long as the American Hunter retains his right to Bear Arms, America
will forever be safe from foreign invasion of troops.

Hunting is not just a way to fill the freezer. It's a matter of national security.

‘‘No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.’’
-- Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J. Boyd, Ed., 1950)​

"There is no crueler tyranny than that which is exercised under cover of law, and with the colors of justice ..." - U.S. v. Jannotti, 673 F.2d 578, 614 (3d Cir. 1982)

 
that is right , alway shoot to kill if you feel that your going to be harmed, but never pull out a gun unless you intend to use it... much easier in court too
 
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