Garmin radar - xHD v. solid state (Fantom)

[b_arrington]

I'm considering upgrading with new Garmin equipment, including radar. I understand some of the benefits of solid state (Garmin's Fantom line), but so far haven't seen good info on how it really compares in performance to their xHD line. My application would be a dome for navigation (not bird chasing), with weather as secondary.

Anyone have experience with the systems and can point out why one is better than the other, or any deficiencies with the Fantom domes vs. the xHD domes?

Secondly, I can fit one large (16") MFD at the helm, or mayyyybe 2 smaller ones - not sure if 10" or 12" would fit side-by-side. Would it be more advantageous to split the screen on 1 large unit, or have 2 smaller ones to display nav and radar?

 

[TNT8808]

I know nothing about Garmin products, however I like having redundant units if space allows just in case.

-Tom

 

[FootballFan]

I have all Garmin, but don't know anything about the solid state radar. My last non-garmin component (auto pilot) was switched to Garmin in January.

 

[alnav]

I changed out my electronics to all-Garmin including a Fantom radar. The primary difference is that the Fantom includes doppler features that displays target motion clues and echo trails. These are very useful in visually sorting out contact motion at a glance including weather. Otherwise I think they are pretty much the same and I believe they are probably both based on the same electronic platform. The price difference is only a couple hundred dollars, at least for domes. The bigger price difference is between dome and array. I don't think the performance of an array makes much difference at the ranges our boats operate. I was also little worried about how a dome would look on a boat my size but went with the cheaper dome Fantom and it looks just fine. So, for much less than the price of a lesser array, I got maximum functionality.
I see at the Garmin site that they are offering the xHD2 line in arrays only. From the specs, these models have both the xHD and Fantom features and more, but at a very healthy price.
I have two 12-inch MFDs. I imagine our helm real estate area is probably about the same so you would likely be able to do this as well. As was said earlier, there's a lot to be said for redundancy.

 

[Ezsteps]

I am running the Fantom open array in my boat for the reasons alnav pointed out and I'm happy with it. As far as 2 MDF's vs. splitting one screen, I would go with two.

 

[sbw1]

I honestly do not see a whole lot of substantive differences among the digital late model scanners. Target differentiation is good with all of them that I've seen work. Wake trails have been around for several years. MARPA, same thing. Multiple target tracking, same thing. There is, however, a very cool feature I saw last year on a Raymarine unit reagarding targets. One of the challenges of boating near shipping lanes on Lake Michigan is trying to figure out how close you will come to ships and figuring out if you are closing toward a target or passing. MARPA does the math but when you see a ship 10-15 miles out you need to decide if it is worth the work load to begin tracking a target when you have other things going on such as weather or waves. Raymarine has developed radar software that shows targets going the same direction as your vessel in green and targets headed toward you in red. When you are busy, knowing about the red targets is more important due to closure rates than those you are overtaking. I wish my radar could display this information without having to enter keystrokes. It's a big lake but as this pic shows, we come pretty close to the big guys from time to time even 25 miles offshore. Knowing directions at a glance would be useful.

 

[alnav]

Raymarine has developed radar software that shows targets going the same direction as your vessel in green and targets headed toward you in red. When you are busy, knowing about the red targets is more important due to closure rates than those you are overtaking.

Garmin Fantom models provide this Doppler feature as well. There is an adjustment to apply a speed threshold so that only higher-speed contacts are highlighted.

 

[FootballFan]

My Garmin differentiates the Red and Green also - Array, not solid state.

Already posted, now rethinking - I was wrong - the red and green on vessels is coming from the AIS integration - not the radar.

 

[sbw1]

My Garmin differentiates the Red and Green also - Array, not solid state.

Already posted, now rethinking - I was wrong - the red and green on vessels is coming from the AIS integration - not the radar.

However you get get the info, it is good to know. I am always a little surprised to see how long it can take to get out of the path of a freighter doing 16-18 knots.

 

[OllieC]

View attachment 67305 View attachment 67304

I've seen that self loader on Superior. I digress....

 

[sbw1]

I've seen that self loader on Superior. I digress....

It gets around.

 

[RollerCoastr]

I've seen that self loader on Superior. I digress....

Well since you started it... I can’t make-out her name, but that could be one of several members of the Great Lakes Fleet. It doesn’t appear to be the Munson, which has a higher fo’csl. She could be the Arthur Anderson - somewhat famous for being the boat that tried to save the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Back on subject: after years of believing that a single screen, radar overlay etc. was enough, I’ve now reversed my position 180°. The more screens, the better. (particularly if they’re networkable)

 

[OllieC]

Well since you started it... I can’t make-out her name, but that could be one of several members of the Great Lakes Fleet. It doesn’t appear to be the Munson, which has a higher fo’csl. She could be the Arthur Anderson - somewhat famous for being the boat that tried to save the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Back on subject: after years of believing that a single screen, radar overlay etc. was enough, I’ve now reversed my position 180°. The more screens, the better. (particularly if they’re networkable)

It's quite possible she is in the background of my home picture. You can make out the pilot house. - sorry, no more hijacking.

 

[b_arrington]

Thanks all, for the suggestions. I'm going to have to see what sizes of equipment will fit on the dash together.

This is the current layout of the dash. The MFD is a Garmin 5212 that would be replaced with 1 or 2 newer units - current candidates are the Garmin 8600 series. There is also an autopilot head unit and a Standard Horizon VHF/AIS radio installed that I would have to work around or relocate. The autopilot head could potentially be moved to the blank spot just below the switches on the right. I was planning on adding a Fusion remote there, but that could go elsewhere. The VHF radio would be a different story due to the size. I don't think there's enough room for 2 12" units and VHF radio. I suppose I could replace the VHF with a black box unit. It would be nice to keep the AIS capability, but I know there are other ways to add that back in. I suppose another option is to have one larger MFD and have a second, smaller unit as well. Not my favorite but possible nontheless.

 

[RollerCoastr]

You can remove the guesswork by going to the Garmin website and printing the cutout templates of all the units you’re considering. (Follow the printing directions precisely to maintain scale, and confirm they’re correct by measuring your prints and comparing them to the specs) The templates also include the outside footprint, so cut each sheet at that boundary for real-world sizing/positioning.

That’s a nice-looking dash. Two side-by-side 12” displays would look perfect with a black-box VHF and auto-pilot next to the thrusters. With all that screen real-estate, Fusion controls on the bottom edge of one or both of the screens would work fine.

Option 2: See if the AP could slide over and fit with a 7” display. If it doesn’t, put the AP next to the thrusters and fill the space with a 9” display?

The cord of my mic gets in my way. I wish I had an option for a remote mic port.

 

[b_arrington]

You can remove the guesswork by going to the Garmin website and printing the cutout templates of all the units you’re considering. (Follow the printing directions precisely to maintain scale, and confirm they’re correct by measuring your prints and comparing them to the specs) The templates also include the outside footprint, so cut each sheet at that boundary for real-world sizing/positioning.

Yep, I've got a 8612 template printed already. I went to grab a template for an 8610, but Garmin's site got squirrelly and most of the templates / manuals are offline for download. I did find the dimensions of an 8612 vs. 5212, and the 8612 is more than an inch narrower. It may just work. I'm considering adding a GRID 20 remote input device too, but that's a bit over the top and might be truly a "nice to have".

I will definitely be laying out the templates. Now I just have to get the boat - this is pre-purchase planning!

 

[Jaybeaux]

I just printed out those 2 templates the other day for the same planning. The 8410/8610 total footprint is essentially 10 9/16 inches wide and 8 11/16 inches tall. The actual screen size is 8.6" X 5.4".

I chatted with BOE yesterday, and the 10" screen has a little bit better screen that the current 12" models. He said the 10" was like a cell phone screen, where the image is at the surface.

I was playing with numbers and came up with the $/square inch metric to help me justify the price. The 8410/8610 have 46.44 square inches of viewing area at a cost of $2500, which is $53.83/square inch. The 8412/8612 have 57.57 square inches of viewing area at a cost of $3500, which is $60.80/square inch. About 13% more per square inch. Admittedly, the 8412/8612's have 24% more viewing area than the 10" models.

Jaybeaux

 

[bobeast]

Lots of good reasons to have multiple displays. That said, I would still overlay the radar on the chart and maybe put the sonar over on an alternate display. As long as you have a heading sensor, it will all line up.

 

[techmitch]

Since we are helping you spend your money here... My thoughts would be to put a slightly larger, nice piece of teak or mahogany with rounded edges on the dash (I think a slight overhang would look good anyhow) and go for the 12's (or the 10's and have more space in-between) , get a remote box radio and possibly mount it behind the wood panel with the cord coming out the right side of the dash and mount the mic on the a-pillar. You could mount the auto pilot between the thrusters and the steering wheel.
Hope I gave you some ideas and food for thought.
Good looking helm setup for sure, but I can't tell from the pic (kinda blurry) but if you already like the current panel, than yea, you are limited on size.
Best of luck with the new boat, looking forward to pics and surely you'll still be hanging around CSR.

 

[b_arrington]

Since we are helping you spend your money here... My thoughts would be to put a slightly larger, nice piece of teak or mahogany with rounded edges on the dash (I think a slight overhang would look good anyhow) and go for the 12's (or the 10's and have more space in-between) , get a remote box radio and possibly mount it behind the wood panel with the cord coming out the right side of the dash and mount the mic on the a-pillar. You could mount the auto pilot between the thrusters and the steering wheel.
Hope I gave you some ideas and food for thought.
Good looking helm setup for sure, but I can't tell from the pic (kinda blurry) but if you already like the current panel, than yea, you are limited on size.
Best of luck with the new boat, looking forward to pics and surely you'll still be hanging around CSR.

If I understand you correctly, you were suggesting to replace the flat dash panel with one that's oversized and overhangs the fiberglass of the helm? Interesting idea, but I'm not sold on that from an aesthetic view.

The pics are not the greatest (snagged them from the boat listing), but here are a couple of other views of the helm. It's pretty open and flexible. There's a good amount of volume underneath so hopefully there is room under there for "toys". One great thing is that by releasing latches at the back the entire helm tips forward for access to the back side. You can see the hinges at the bottom of the helm highlighted by the green lines.



There is definitely room to have a remote mic cord come out the right side, perhaps even with an L shaped bracket to hold the mic. I've seen them mounted a few different places. I installed an Icom 400BB on my 270 AJ 2 seasons ago to replace the original NS100. I really liked that unit being out of the way.

I found a couple pics of the back side of another similar model. Nice to have good open access to everything vs. trying to peer through a little access hole.

I plan to hang around here on CSR. I'll always love my Amberjack and the folks here are good people.