For those of you with a dog in the Ethanol fight..

[gerryb]

Take a look at today's Wall Street Journal, front page...

I think many on this board had been waiting for this perspective to finally get some attention...Ethanol is infact not without significant downsides...

A tiny excerpt.
"In the span of one growing season, ethanol has gone from panacea to pariah in the eyes of some. The critics, which include industries hurt when the price of corn rises, blame ethanol for pushing up food prices, question its environmental bona fides and dispute how much it really helps reduce the need for oil."

 

[rondds]

that's a no brainer. everything you read, from popular science to boating magazines to automobile mags to business week, to us news and world reports states that ethanol is pure smoke and mirrors to appease tree huggers. it's a fact that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of E than a gallon of gasoline, and gallon for gallon, it cant produce as much energy as gasoline (thus worse mileage). the only thing it is good for is as a replacement for the old gasoline additive MTBE (a carcinogen). and they want to move to e-20 and e-85??!! it's an absolute FARSE! check the gas mileage of a GM automobile that runs on gas and one that runs on e-85. the bottom line will show NO energy savings whatsoever. and every single person you speak to will tell you how his/her automobile's gas mileage had DROPPED since those pumps were labelled CONTAINS ETHANOL.

i believe that, at this point, the only answer that will actually reduce fossil fuel consumption and carbon emissions is today's cleaner diesel power. whoever starts producing smaller diesel engines at prices comparable to gasoline engines will start a revolution. the price barrier must be removed for it to catch on.

:thumbsup:

 

[Go Aweigh2452]

As is done in Brazil, we need to use sugar beets. not corn. sugar beets have more "E" and is 1/3 the cost to get the amount of "E" out of it compared to corn.

I see two benefits for using sugar beets over corn...

#1. Much more efficient than corn to convert
#2. Beets grow in warm climates... (Louisiana, Mississippi, et al need something to get them out of the pockets of Uncle Sam). I firmly believe growing sugar beets would do that.

 

[JV II]

I say drill in the arctic now and tap that reserve to bring gas and diesel back in the $2 range for the next 15 years until a reliable alternative powerplant can be put on a boat.

 

[Go Aweigh2452]

I say drill in the arctic now and tap that reserve to bring gas and diesel back in the $2 range for the next 15 years until a reliable alternative powerplant can be put on a boat.

We are going to have to do this someday anyway. We are certainly not going to go without heat just to let some frekin carabou to frolic in the tundra! :smt038

 

[JV II]

We are going to have to do this someday anyway. We are certainly not going to go without heat just to let some frekin carabou to frolic in the tundra! :smt038

:smt115 The more oil we burn, the warmer it gets outside, the less heat we have to use for the house, the less oil we use to heat the house, the more oil we have to put in the boat, the higher the seas rise, the more water we have to boat in, the longer the boating season, the more grass grows for the carabou.:grin:

 

[rondds]

i guess we're just going to have to wait until al gore starts to really get worried about just how he's going to heat his 8000 sq ft home, or fuel the private jet he takes to his 6 figure speaking engagements. or maybe he'll take interest when the generators that run the the lights, amplifiers and smoke/ pyrotechnics runs out of e-99 at the next nobel prize award concert that all the "concerned" recording and acting "artists" throw for him. at that point, MAYBE they'll allow us to disturb the creatures that aren't really even ON the food chain.:smt013:smt013:smt013

 

[JV II]

I forgot about the creatures on the food chain.

...the more carabou there are for us to eat.

Have you ever had carabou? It is by far the most delicious of all creatures on the food chain.

 

[Hampton]

i guess we're just going to have to wait until al gore starts to really get worried about just how he's going to heat his 8000 sq ft home, or fuel the private jet he takes to his 6 figure speaking engagements. or maybe he'll take interest when the generators that run the the lights, amplifiers and smoke/ pyrotechnics runs out of e-99 at the next nobel prize award concert that all the "concerned" recording and acting "artists" throw for him. at that point, MAYBE they'll allow us to disturb the creatures that aren't really even ON the food chain.:smt013:smt013:smt013

You obviously don't understand anything about elitism. He is doing his part by convincing large numbers of common people to cut back in amount totals that far exceed his carbon footprint. If he were to stop burning those dinosaurs, his impact on the little people would not be felt as it is today. He would be doing the planet an injustice.

This is completely TIC. He's a pompous baby, and his wife is an elitist bitch.

 

[rondds]

too gamey for me.

john - dont hold back, let it ALL out:smt043

is she the one who got us warning labels on records (uh, i mean cds, or mp3s or blu-ray)?? or is she the one who dragged judas priest into court on a murder charge?

 

[comsnark]

Oh. . . let's not talk about "global warming". The politics have obscured the facts so much that we would be hard pressed to see the facts if they walked up and clubbed us over the head.

Drill in the artic to bring the price of gas down? Hahahahah. That's a laugh. Have you noticed the price of clothing go down since production went to China?

Global Warming? We are talking about 1F average degree rise in temperature global, when typical day-to-night variations are 30F? Lets not even discuss how the data is collected. .. or how it is analyzed!

People don't affect the cliamate? Hahahah. Take an arial photo of the US east coast and say that again with a straight face.

 

[Hampton]

I believe people do have an effect. I don't believe it's through CO2 production. I believe that the changing of the landscape has a great effect. Take an acre of property covered in trees. Cut the trees down. Cover the area in black tar. Measure the temperature of the surrounding and compare before versus after - it's not even funny.

Take a cool, lush meadow and build a bunch of homes and businesses. Crank up heaters, ovens, a/c's, cars... Measure the temp of the surroundings before and after. Multiply these effects by tens of thousands. The reason the Republicans are arguing against the greenhouse gas effect is because man's influence is miniscule in this regard. I should know, I'm an R. I don't understand why the dems have to concentrate on such a stoopid argument. Is it because it's simple enough for their constituents to understand? If they stuck to the facts, they might have an influence.

 

[Hampton]

http://www.abd.org.uk/green_myths.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...ogy.html?in_article_id=440049&in_page_id=1965

http://www.aetherometry.com/global_warming/gw_index.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192544,00.html

 

[Hampton]

Solution -
http://reference.aol.com/planet-earth/global-warming/top-tips-stop-global-warming


Extreme ?
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/16112.html


Green?
http://www.epa.gov/greenacres/nativeplants/factsht.html

 

[Go Aweigh2452]

 

[comsnark]

An extreme shortage of facts. .. .

. . I will present two:
1) The northern ice packs are indeed currently fading at a rapid rate.

2) Go back 15,000 years, and you will find those ice packs covered half the northern hemisphere.

 

[Turtlesboat]

Go back even further and most of the planet was covered in ice. Before that is was lava.

 

[Go Aweigh2452]

And magnetic north changed 8 times since the dawn of time... :smt089

You can expect several more "ice ages" between now and we the earth gets vaporized by the sun when she finally burns out... :smt043

So lets all build bunkers for the day the earth stands still... :smt101

 

[Turtlesboat]

The biggest oil reserve in the world is sitting under Colorado, 2 trillion barrels of oil. That is more oil than most of middle east combined. The only problem is it's shale oil, which is more expensive to extract than sweet crude. I believe it costs roughly $25/barrel to extract this oil which is much cheaper than we are buying if for. The problem is the tree huggers won't let us get it. The good news is, the government owns almost all of this land above the oil. there are a handful of companies testing the best way to extract this oil without turning the area upside down. It's estimated that they can extract 1.5 trillion barrels from this field. that's a lot of oil.

 

[Nehalennia]

so it's going to be a Dark dank Winter if we're to argue or boringly discuss "Global Warming", Politics and Ethanol other than how it pertains to a boat's fuel tank. Speaking of tank, this one belongs in the holding tank.