Electric boats should appeal to clean fingernails types

[El Capitan]

Electric boats….yeah, sure, till the grounding fails and swimmers are electrocuted. A new boat startup going IPO. Fry Ray.

 

[Jus Cruisin]

They are building hybrid superyachts. Just a matter of time and hybrid technology will be in the under 60' boats. I own a hybrid pickup now.

 

[Henry Boyd]

There are a lot of efficiencies gained in diesel electric propulsion which is mature. I'm a bit surprised the yacht manufacturers (our sized yachts) haven't offered diesel electric as an option years ago.
Battery storage propulsion is novel but not ready for prime time for anything larger than a dinghy/runabout. We need energy density storage in batteries to the level of hydrocarbon fuels to make the leap which I think is years away. The time it takes to recharge a large battery bank vs fueling with diesel for example doesn't satisfy our appetite to keep moving either.

Pre nuclear submarines and current "diesel" subs used diesels to run gens to charge batteries, and when submerged ran off of batteries for silent running. Post WWII designs incorporated the German U-Boat snorkel concept. Nuclear subs of the early seventies designs used the reactor to generate steam to power steam turbines to power electric drive motors. Since my only exposure to nuclear subs was as a researcher (go-fer) on a study being run for the Navy by my thesis advisor in 74, I can't comment on whether that's still the case.

Shifting gears slightly in the 90s one of my naval architect friends had a project for a corporate executive who lived on a private lake. The HOA would not allow internal combustion engines on boats on the lake. So my friend's client had a 1930s wooden runabout restored without an engine and had a hybrid genset to battery & electric motor drive system installed in place of the old gas engine. The power plant was designed by a company in NY that built hybrid water taxi/yacht club tenders. This particular boat was built with extra batteries with the gas engine solely as a back up. The client even went so far as to build a boat house with lift and out of water charging station. All to piss off his neighbors.

 

[GypsmJim]

Pre nuclear submarines and current "diesel" subs used diesels to run gens to charge batteries, and when submerged ran off of batteries for silent running.

WWII US Navy Destroyer Escorts used diesel engines to power the electric motors that turned the props. There may be others as well.

 

[Arminius]

Brunswick CEO recently spoke and said electric market is for under 25 hp on small lakes where most motorboat owners live or boat. Such was the reported speech. Makes sense. My rural buddy who totes car batteries around said he was looking forward to them new batteries, "you know what I mean."

 

[Nater Potater]

...my friend's client had a 1930s wooden runabout restored without an engine and had a hybrid genset to battery & electric motor drive system installed in place of the old gas engine.

Looking back on this earlier post, my way of thinking would be to find a small trawler-like boat and power it with a coal-fired steam engine, a-la the African Queen. Lots of smelly smoke, and a whistle to boot. "'Sorry; not an internal combustion engine!"

 

[Henry Boyd]

Looking back on this earlier post, my way of thinking would be to find a small trawler-like boat and power it with a coal-fired steam engine, a-la the African Queen. Lots of smelly smoke, and a whistle to boot. "'Sorry; not an internal combustion engine!"

Nah, That would have just busted his neighbors balls. The high tech hybrid not only did that, but also gave him something to brag about. Also the HOA rule was primarily aimed at preventing noisy boats on a very small pond. The HOA could have easily pushed some kind of lawsuit over a steam bolier powered boat, whereas they would only look like asshats complaining about a non polluting silent restored classic.

Besides I also knew him and had also done work for him (he was the CEO of a marine transportation company). My friend had designed containerships for the company and I had done work on container and landside engineering. So we both knew his temperament, and shoveling coal or chopping firewood would never be in the cards.

 

[GypsmJim]

Talking coal is simply just making jokes. If the current administration has their way coal will be eliminated altogether.

That in effect will kill our country because we have not prepared for the future. Natural gas - same problem.

Talking electric vehicles is also folly. Sure, its the way of the future but if we move too fast the electric grid won't handle it. If we all buy Teslas and electric freaking boats, as soon as we all try to charge them up at the same time the grid will fail and then we won't have enough left to heat our houses.

I am a student of ecology and I spent my entire working career as an Engineer working toward reducing energy consumption and eliminating pollution.

Until we address the root cause of the problem, we are all screwed.

Al Gore addressed it in his book, but he didn't emphasize it enough. There simply too many people. When I was a kid we had a family of 4 and 1 car. Now families are too big and every driveway has 4 cars parked. Al didn't understand it. Look at his family and the size of his yacht.

In the seventies us environmentalist pledged the ZPG pledge. That meant have no more kids than 2, so population growth would be stagnant.

I did my part. So don't tell me I use too much gas in my SeaRay, or my house is heated too much....

 

[Nater Potater]

Talking coal is simply just making jokes. If the current administration has their way coal will be eliminated altogether.
That in effect will kill our country because we have not prepared for the future. Natural gas - same problem.

I got to say that seeing, quite literally, miles upon miles of railroad cars in north Idaho loaded with coal out of Montana and surrounding areas heading towards Seattle and Portland to be barged overseas, is pretty disturbing.

 

[GypsmJim]

I got to say that seeing, quite literally, miles upon miles of railroad cars in north Idaho loaded with coal out of Montana and surrounding areas heading towards Seattle and Portland to be barged overseas, is pretty disturbing.

After spending a "lifetime" working with the coal industry, developing technology to eliminate SO2 pollution, and finding out that foreign countries couldn't care less and use it straight out of the train, I find it disturbing as well.

OTOH, if we don't sell it to those ******* we lose an industry in the USA as well.

The irony is that burning coal doesn't have to pollute, and the technology exists to eliminate carbon emission as well. It just costs $ for equipment.

 

[Arminius]

Human happiness should be the underlying pursuit. The harm of the statistical likelihood of a few degrees warming a century from now and the resulting change in habitat and habits is minimal and must be contrasted with the immediate impact on human happiness and economic efficiency of artificial markets and regulations and taxes lacking in immediate or provable future benefits. Us vs the poor people of the earth though, as they just want to stay warm while we wish to stir the dynamism of the markets to create more opportunities to invest in schemes without immediate good. I fear an alliance of the 3rd world and the rogue states-with ICBMs when they all hate us with good reason.

 

[Arminius]

Revisited the 3rd World last night. I was cleaning my plate at a good Mexican restaurant while Susan was boxing her leftovers and she baited the American looking waiter into talking. He believed that the future of America was the Rich and the Poor with no middle class in between. I didn't say a word but doubt this kid (whose Mom "shopped at Mercado" for bargains for hungry kids) would have much interest in eco-Warming-crapola trinkets of the Rich. I'd heard Marxism before and found it disturbing.

 

[NorCalRobert]

They will find in a number of years that electric cars are like nuclear reactors, what do we do with the waste.
I believe the reason they did not go towards hydrogen powered vehicles is due to “Follow the Money” no money in hydrogen tons of money in batteries and mining what it takes to make them.

 

[GypsmJim]

All this talk about electric cars piqued my interest, so I did some r&d about the economics and issues. The data here is for an electric car that is driven for 200 miles:

* 48 hours to charge it with a std 120 v plug in your garage
* 10 hours to charge it at home if you put in a 240 volt charging station
* 18 minutes for a charge with a group 3 commercial charger like Tesla is installing in various places.

(my house doesn't have the extra circuits unless the wife gives up her electric stove, so not likely for me to buy one)

* $6 cost of electricity for the subject 200 mile charge
* $13 for gas if the same car were gas powered
* The electric car capital cost is a $16,000 premium

My buddy bought one. He raved about it. After a few months he hit a deer and the car was totaled by the insurance company. I said why not simply buy another one? He said the gov't incentive tax rebate was over and a new one would cost too much.

 

[PlayDate]

I agree. We just completed a 1100 mile trip. I would hate to think how long it would have taken if I had to spend hours recharging every 200-250 miles.

Why does “great” technology require government cheese to make it work?

 

[ttmott]

Why does “great” technology require government cheese to make it work?

It shouldn't. The government should "seed" and develop new technologies to a point they become viable for US corporations to commercialize and create a benefit to the US GDP and hopefully, humanity in general. The government should not supplement and enable specific corporations like they did during the photovoltaic cell debacle. The US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) still does a great job "seeding" technology. The Executive Branch of the US government does a spectacularly poor job at it; their focus is on votes and re-election....

 

[jmauld]

Why does “great” technology require government cheese to make it work?

Because Japan is subsidizing their automakers (have been since the 70s), Germany, korea and china are subsidizing their companies. If we don’t do this, we get left behind. Look how easy the Japanese cars took over in the 70s and 80s with the support of their government. No one is forcing YOU as an individual to buy an EV, but we as a country should do what it takes to stay in the front and not get left behind.

 

[ttmott]

Because Japan is subsidizing their automakers (have been since the 70s), Germany, korea and china are subsidizing their companies. If we don’t do this, we get left behind. Look how easy the Japanese cars took over in the 70s and 80s with the support of their government. No one is forcing YOU as an individual to buy an EV, but we as a country should do what it takes to stay in the front and not get left behind.

I don't think this is the path forward. If a foreign government is supplementing their commercial production or unfairly depressing the labor workforce to the point it impacts true free market survival and growth, tariff implementation and foreign spending are the tools to level the playing field. In no way should we supplement corporations to level the free market against foreign imports. Should we supplement US corporations (for example) to compensate for the US perceived minimum wage? Absolutely not - let the companies determine their competitiveness in a market. If a foreign company can produce using a labor workforce that is paid fairly for their standard of living, so be it.

 

[jmauld]

We can’t levy taxes on imports without libs raising hell.

Neither Honda or Toyota would even be in the US without the support of the Japanese government. There is no way they produced higher quality cars, shipped them across the ocean and then sold them for less without the cars being sold at a loss. Those losses were covered by their government to keep their industries alive and their citizens working.

not to mention the entire idea of holding one’s currency at a lower value than our’s to further steal market share.

A “free” market isn’t free when other players are cheating the system. We put our manufacturers at a disadvantage in that scenario.

 

[PlayDate]

Because Japan is subsidizing their automakers (have been since the 70s), Germany, korea and china are subsidizing their companies. If we don’t do this, we get left behind. Look how easy the Japanese cars took over in the 70s and 80s with the support of their government. No one is forcing YOU as an individual to buy an EV, but we as a country should do what it takes to stay in the front and not get left behind.

Not the right approach because I don’t want to subsidize my neighbors car and have virtually no say in the matter. Especially when the politicos making the decision can trade stocks on inside information…..legally.

Tariffs are the only way to level the playing field.