Earth Day, The Hype Is Coming...

Discussion in 'The Tiki Bar' started by MonacoMike, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. ttmott

    ttmott Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2012
    Space Coast Florida
    2006 52 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins QSM11
    What is never discussed is where the earth is with regards to the Milankovitch Cycles; these are Eccentricity Change (the elliptical-ness of orbit around the sun and has a periodicity of 100,000 years), Axial tilt varation (the earth relational tilt of the axis related to the sun and has a periodicity of 41,000 years) and finally the Precession (the earth axis wobble which has a periodicity of 23,000 years). These physical attributes play more to the earth's climate and change both combined and independently that anything else.
    So, the question is; where are we in these cycles with respect to historical data and why is this never illustrated in the media?
    Actually, I know the answer but the question stands.
     
  2. sailquik

    sailquik New Member

    13
    Apr 11, 2017
    L550 Fly
    Cat C12.9
    This is a terrible thread.

    The problem with folks today is they think they know more about a subject from a google search than people who have spent their lives studying a subject.

    They walk into their doctors office and tell them the treatment they want because they saw an ad on TV and looked it up online.

    They refuse vaccines because someone sent them a chain email saying you could become autistic.

    They deny climate change because they googled "climate change is a hoax" and found that five years ago the weather in February was colder in Miami than it had been in the last 50 years.

    We all specialize in different fields. That is what makes the human race successful since, for example, one person alone would not be able to learn enough in a lifetime about engineering, carpentry, nautical architecture, welding, steel working, painting, etc. to design and build your average Sea Ray and it's mechanical systems that go into it.

    This is why we should defer to experts when they give their opinion about their particular specialty. Someone who comes into my office and doesn't take the advice I'm giving them based on my 30 years of experience is simply arrogant in their ignorance.

    Even if you don't want to listen to experts or believe in the long term effects of climate change - just travel to places like China or Mexico or Haiti and look at the shorter term effects of ignoring the importance of protecting the environment. Undrinkable water, un-breatheable air, un-farmable land, etc.

    Traveling around the third world really opens your eyes about the benefits we receive here in the US and also in Europe from environmental protection laws.
     
  3. sfergson727

    sfergson727 Administrator TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 12, 2007
    Washington Park Marina, Michigan City
    '07 340 DA, E97, A75, VV4, Soft Top
    '12 Boston Whaler 15 Montauk
    8.1 Mercruiser V-Drives, Mercury 60 HP Bigfoot
    Nobody says we shouldn't take care of our planet. I look at the garbage along the road and really get pissed off. Here's the thing. The climate is changing, just as it always has, and always will. Humans are a fart in the wind on a planetary scale and there is NOTHING we can do to change the climate.

    We can do what we can to preserve it, but the whole green movement has nothing to do with saving the planet, rather it is all about control. That is not okay with me.
     
  4. Blueone

    Blueone Well-Known Member

    981
    Jan 24, 2007
    Lake Erie, Ohio
    2004 420 Sundancer
    Cummins 6CTA 450's
    You see that's the problem... I have 30 years plus experience in my expertise and I have equals right beside me in the same business going bankrupt... Everyone interprets data differently... You can show two accountants the same financials and they will give you two different valuations.... You can give two engineers the same challenge and get two totally different results...scientist's are not excluded from this club..

    I think this debate will go on for a long time..... Let's hope it is the eighth apocalypse as the OP suggests.... And there are many more to come
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  5. northshore

    northshore Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jan 17, 2011
    Cleveland, OH
    1989 340 Sundancer
    Raymarine E90W Radar/Chartplotter
    Twin 454 Mercruiser 340's
    Hey now! - this is a family show! :grin:
     
  6. OllieC

    OllieC Active Member

    490
    Mar 11, 2013
    MinniSoCold
    2005 Weekender 215
    Mercruiser 5.0 mpi, Bravo III
    Hey, I resemble your reply!


    Best line in that skit;
    "Pack your $4it Folks!"
     
  7. sailquik

    sailquik New Member

    13
    Apr 11, 2017
    L550 Fly
    Cat C12.9
    I understand what you are trying to say, but science is absolute. Gravity exists and it is measurable. The laws of thermodynamics are, well, laws. Math is also absolute: Pi and the speed of light are constants and 2+2 will always be four. There may be different aircraft wing 'solutions' based on the primary goal of your design, but they all have to follow the same science in order to produce lift.

    What is not absolute is our interpretation of mathematical and scientific absolutes because when confronted with complex equations we interpret the results incorrectly either based on their sheer complexity, because we do not understand the variables, we do not have a large enough sample, we let our own biases into the interpretation, etc.

    This is precisely the reason to go with the overwhelming interpretation of multiple experts: If 999 out of 1000 experts come to one conclusion, it would be foolish to think the outlier is correct. Especially if the outlier is shown to have personal gain from his results, has used a cherry picked set of data, cannot have his results duplicated or fails a peer review.

    The problem with climate change isn't that the science disagrees, in fact, even some climate change deniers are coming around given the irrefutable data and overwhelming agreement among experts. The argument is now whether it is caused by humans and whether anything can be done to reverse its course.

    In my opinion whether climate change is caused by humans or not doesn't matter because the same policies that will allow me to breathe clean air and drink clean water will at least help with the climate change issue, so why kneejerk against them just because they are labeled as climate change related?

    Coal is a good example. What does it matter if coal contributes to climate change or not? It is still a 19th century fuel we do not need to utilize in the 21st century. The whole 'coal as clean energy and more jobs' argument is a red herring for political gain because coal is the 21st century equivalent of a 19th century horse: Lots of people lost their jobs when the automobile became popular (farriers, veterinarians, breeders, the guys that cleaned horse**** off of city streets, etc.) but many more gained jobs in the automobile industry.

    If coal goes the way of the dodo because solar or wind or natural gas or nuclear is cheaper, safer or cleaner, and in turn those industries create safer, better paying jobs, then good riddance. When I drive my airbag equipped, air conditioned sedan down the interstate at 60MPH, I don't feel nostalgic for horse drawn buggies, multi day trips from one city to the next and horse crap filled city streets.

    Unfortunately there will always be those that rail against progress because it is easier to stay the course than make a change. Human nature will always think a known devil is better than an unknown angel.
     
  8. JimG

    JimG Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Nov 4, 2008
    Southern WV
    2007 310 DA
    Kohler 5ECD
    Twin 350 Mags
    Raw Water Cooled
    V-Drives
    You cast out coal yet include natural gas and nuclear as safer, cleaner?!?!
     
  9. sfergson727

    sfergson727 Administrator TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 12, 2007
    Washington Park Marina, Michigan City
    '07 340 DA, E97, A75, VV4, Soft Top
    '12 Boston Whaler 15 Montauk
    8.1 Mercruiser V-Drives, Mercury 60 HP Bigfoot

    I'm still trying to wrap my head around having any faith whatsoever in the so called gurus. Can you explain why we didn't die of solar radiation when the ozone layer went away, as the scientists predicted? (it didn't go away, did it?) How about when they predicted we would be in an ice age back in the 1970's? I must have missed that one. Face it, every single prediction these so called experts have made, has been wrong. So much so, that they have to keep renaming the crisis. First it was global cooling, then global warming...now they've given up and just call it climate change. Sorry, science is ignorant when it comes to the climate.

    Today's challenge, name for me one product that we use today on a daily basis that wasn't produced or otherwise linked to oil or coal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  10. JC3

    JC3 Active Member

    Oct 6, 2006
    Kentucky
    N/A
    N/A
    Sailquik, I am going to do something I have never done on this board (Oct.2006). I respectfully ask you to not post anything more about coal! You have two post and have demonstrated to me your total ignorance about something you know absolutely nothing about. You appear to be a product of the current educational system in the US. It is sad to me what a lot of the current generation has been taught and believe. It is sad! JC
     
  11. FootballFan

    FootballFan Well-Known Member

    Jun 20, 2012
    Florida
    Marquis 59
    MTU Series 60
    Ok, so this guy said the earth was round. But 99.9% is the scientist said he was wrong. Oh, that's right olden times, didn't have as much knowledge as today.

    I thought it was resolved when in the early 20th century - guessing maybe 1900-1910 range. US Patent office said that everything that could be invented had been invented. There were no expected innovations.

    The problem that started with an "Inconvenient Truth" by Al Gore, is a lack of understanding of correlation vs causality.

    No doubt that the climate changes. At one point Minnesota was covered with a glacier.

    What has not been proven, is man action causality.

    The debate is not global warming, or climate change. The debate is human action causality of climate effect.

    Please share data, would love to take a look.
     
  12. Woody

    Woody Well-Known Member

    Nov 20, 2007
    N. Wisconsin/Lk Superior
    2005 420DA
    Cummins 6CTA8.3
    I'm interested in the debate myself but it's difficult when the, 'they're the experts and you're not' gets thrown out at the beginning....go away ignorant common man.:lol:
     
  13. OllieC

    OllieC Active Member

    490
    Mar 11, 2013
    MinniSoCold
    2005 Weekender 215
    Mercruiser 5.0 mpi, Bravo III
    This Earth Day we need to reflect on the key individuals.

    Co-Founder Ira Einhorn, murdered and composted his girlfriend. I imagine his garden stunk.

    Rachel Carlson, who created the Science FICTION novel 'Silent Spring, which was key to the creation of the EPA. The same EPA that has banned DDT and has resulted in MILLIONS of Human Deaths.....all under the false premise of thin egg shells (overwhelming biologist consensus debunks that theory - google it)

    or Nut Job - Paul Ehrlich who advocated for mass sterilization in the 70's and started the Overpopulation movement, even though today, we can fit the worlds population on the Island of Maui. Google and do the Math.

    Maybe, and I'm spit balling here, but also not pushing religion (so don't flame me)...but maybe, if these climate change (nice change of the original GW term btw) would have God in their lives, and respect humanity, as oppose to a belief in objects...maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't be so paranoid that the sky was falling and have some peace in their lives..

    Carlin is right - the Earth will just shake us off like a dog with fleas, and there's nothing we can do about it. So, Pack your $4it!
     
  14. MonacoMike

    MonacoMike Well-Known Member

    Sep 15, 2009
    Indiana lakes and Lake Michigan
    2000 Cruisers 3870
    97 270 Sundancer
    85 Sea Ray Monaco 197
    8.2 Mercs,
    7.4 BII
    260hp Alpha 1
    This is the most inaccurate quote of the entire thread. Science is far from absolute, hence the definition; "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment".

    MM
     
  15. Gofirstclass

    Gofirstclass Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 20, 2010
    Tri Cities, WA
    1995 550 Sedan Bridge,
    2010 Boston Whaler 130 Super Sport,
    1981 Boston Whaler 130 Sport,
    CAT 3406C's, 580hp.
    Sailquik, the "facts" that you believe might not be as factual as you were led to believe. Want some information that calls into question the "facts" that you know, google "climate change facts were distorted"
     
  16. Blueone

    Blueone Well-Known Member

    981
    Jan 24, 2007
    Lake Erie, Ohio
    2004 420 Sundancer
    Cummins 6CTA 450's
    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  17. northshore

    northshore Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jan 17, 2011
    Cleveland, OH
    1989 340 Sundancer
    Raymarine E90W Radar/Chartplotter
    Twin 454 Mercruiser 340's
    If you really want a nice example of how wrong a large group of very educated and well intentioned people can be, look at what we thought we knew about Pluto 5 years ago and how certain we were vs. what we actually know today.
     
  18. MonacoMike

    MonacoMike Well-Known Member

    Sep 15, 2009
    Indiana lakes and Lake Michigan
    2000 Cruisers 3870
    97 270 Sundancer
    85 Sea Ray Monaco 197
    8.2 Mercs,
    7.4 BII
    260hp Alpha 1
    Logic wins everytime...

    MM
     
  19. sailquik

    sailquik New Member

    13
    Apr 11, 2017
    L550 Fly
    Cat C12.9
    Enlighten me then. I didn't say anything technical about coal, just used it as an example of an industrial revolution era fuel that can (eventually) be replaced with something better.

    If you disagree, then say why and show me the error of my ways. Otherwise, you're just as ignorant as I am.

    Here, I'll start. Coal produces 16.1% of the energy consumed in the US. 33.2% of electricity is generated in coal fired power plants. ( http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/topics/encyclopedia/coal/ )

    The reliance on coal in the mix of fuels used in the US has declined since the '90s
    ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/US_Electrical_Generation_1949-2011.png )

    Here's the historical data on coal mine accidents with loss of life: https://arlweb.msha.gov/mshainfo/factsheets/mshafct8.htm

    Here's the World Coal Association describing their view of the future of coal (hint: they embrace carbon capture and storage and don't make an effort to deny climate change) https://www.worldcoal.org/role-ccs-well-below-2°c-world

    So, while you may think (incorrectly) that I'm anti coal. I'm not. As you can see in the above links, coal has made great strides in safety and is trying hard to be a cleaner fuel.

    However, the fact that coal use has also decreased markedly in the last 20 years or so leads me to believe there are better options; otherwise coal use would be increasing. I just think embracing the past as the future is silly. Why not continue to use coal as we have in the past, but focus on newer technologies for the future? Why is everything nowadays all or nothing?

    This thread - and your post in particular - is the perfect example of the quandary we find ourselves in: Everyone assumes they know the other's position and they are convinced the other guy is wrong. Basically no one wants to hear anyone out, and aren't willing to make a respectful effort to advance their point of view.

    Since all you are saying is "shut up", I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying coal is the fuel of the future?
     
  20. sailquik

    sailquik New Member

    13
    Apr 11, 2017
    L550 Fly
    Cat C12.9
    If you google "the earth is actually flat" you will find a bunch of pages of round earth deniers. Doesn't mean any of the pages are fact. The internet is full of lies and exaggerations, it's important to not only look at the content of webpages, but also the source.
     

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