Diesel Advice

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margarita jane

New Member
Feb 4, 2008
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Boat Info
400 DA 1997 "ISLAND GIRLS"
Engines
3116TA CATS/ZF HURTH 800 SERIES VDRIVES
New to the diesel world.(400DA 3116's)Would appreciate some ideas on diesel fuel additives are they neccessary or not? if so the type or brand(if allowed) that gives best results... thanks in advance!
 
Margarita- there will be a lot of opinions on this... If you use your boat (and thus fuel) regularly, there should be no need for additives. If your boat sits for long periods and/or you just bought it and are unsure of the fuel/tank condition, that's another story.

When I buy a boat and I am not absolutely sure of the fuel/tank condition, I do a shock treatment of biocide and conditioner and have the tanks polished by a service or, as I did on my current boat, install an on-board polishing system. I use the on-board system because we travel in the out island Bahamas and have picked up dirty fuel before.
 
Do a search on this forum for "ULSD" and you can see some of the discussions on this before. The diesel mechanic I use told me last summer they are starting to see issues with this in the area (fuel pumps, etc.).

I personally use Diesel Kleen (get it at Wal-Mart) in the 480.
 
I do what Gary does. Power service diesel kleen will compensate for the reduced lubricity of ULSD fuel. And I do a maintenance dose of biocide at every fillup. Following this regimen, recommended to me by fwebster, has allowed me to change Racors once per season. And the C series run great.

regards
Skip
 
I am now a believer in the Power Service Fuel additive. I had a 44ft with 3208 cats in it and started using it and oil consumption was decreased from adding every ten hours to about 40 hours of running. Now I use it in The 50 footer.
 
Yes - as others here have said - the fuel aditives (Diesel Kleen, I believe is what I use as well); I have used as well. The question really is - are they worth it? Hard to say... I have always just used it...add it with each tank. BUT, I have NEVER had a diesel problem - not sure if it's cause of that - or just good fuel and good mainteance (both of which are equally as important)....
 
No, it isn't hard to say it is worth it......particularly since we started seeing ULSD at marinas.

Until ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel), the "animal" we fought with additives was fuel contamination due to moisture and microbial growth. We did and should still do that (depending upon your local enviornment) with a biocide and a moisture dispersing additive.

Then along came ULSD with, thanks to Uncle Sam, and the mandate to remove sulfur from diesel down to 15 PPM from about 500 PPM. The stripping process used to remove the sulfur also removes the natural lubricity or lubricating ability of diesel fuel, which is a light oil in the first place, and some of the fuel's natural cetane. Cetane is loosely the diesel equivalent of octane.

Lost lubricity is important to those of us who run diesels made prior to 2006 because the fuel handling components on our engines, those very expensive parts that pump the fuel and deliver it to the injectors and the injectors that atomize the fuel into the cylinders get lubrication from the fuel passing thru them. When lubricity is lost, we begin to see pump and injector problems. The pumps lose pressure, the governers inside bind, and they can leak. The plunger in the injector galls in the barrel causing it to freeze or hang. A mechanical diesel pump costs between $2500 and $5000......God only knows how expensive an electronic pump for a common rail system is..... and replacing a single injector can cause us to reset all the valves and injectors on an engine....the parts might be a few hundred $, but the labor cost is usually at least $1000 just to replaqce an injector on unit injection engines.

Lost cetane affects us in 2 ways......first we lose some marginal efficiency at cruise speeds but we tend to feel it more in hard starting and increased smoke. Hard starting causes 2 problems....wear on starting motors and gears and in increased engine wear as raw unburned diesel washes the lubricating oil off cylinder walls during the period of time we are cranking but the engine isn't running.

The solution to these issues is sublimely simple.......use a diesel fuel additive that is labeled to replace lost lubricity and to increase cetane. So is it worth it? Be your own judge, but I buy Power Service Diesel Kleen with Cetane Improver and Stanadne Lubricity additive by the case in bulk and I use both in my boat, truck, car and in all the other stuff I own that is diesel powered as well.
 
Frank
You mentioned motors prior to 2006. What about newer models? My boat will be delivered Saturday with fuel tanks. she has about 10 hours on the QSCs. Would you suggest the same fuel maintenance program from the start?

Thanks
Rich
 
different Frank but absolutely. A fuel maintenance program can only help and for the few extra dollars it costs, it's money well spent. Love the new boat....good luck with her.
 
Check with Cummins....not your Sea Ray dealer.

I have a close friend who is a Cummins mid range dealer and he tells me Cummins has done a lot of work recently on ULSD and its effects on engines. Rather than me guessing conservatively, you would be better served to get the information from the horses mouth. but I will tell you that, in addition to clean rooms for rebuilding pumps and injectors my friend also has a 12 bay shop and about 1/2 of the bays are occupied all the time by Dodge/Cummins trucks with fuel related issues.

That said, my common sense tells me the introduction of ULSD was not that long ago and the Q-series electronic engines...particularly the C & B engines, are relatively new. Given that engines have a life span in the 1000's of hours, I doubt there has been enough time to really tell the long term effects of lower cetane and lubricity. If it were me I would at a minimum use a lubricity improver additive like the Stanadyne product here:

http://www.stanadyne.com/new/ppt/showfile.asp?id=3384

It is cheap and very concentrated so the cost per gal of treated fuel is low. I would much prefer to spend a little money on additives than to find 5 years down the road that I should have used it but didn't and have to replace a pump or injectors or worse, rebuild an engine.

My engines are older, but I follow my own recommendations.....I use a biocide (we are in Florida), I use PS Diesel Kleen and I use the stanadyle Lubricity Improver. It works....my Racors have no noticable sludge in them and there is no water in the bowl and I change them annually.
 
Thanks Frank

Since it's a new boat Cummins Metropower (Bronx, NY) will be coming down to give me an orentation of the C's. The fuel additive question will be on the top of my list.

Rich
 
Rich-

Frank's advice is spot on.

For what it's worth, I used an additve and biocide on my common rail QSC on the 44DA and will do the same on the 48DA. Some time ago, I was introduced to Valvtech's product, Diesel Guard and a biocide from Hammonds, Biobar JF. I have no complaints regarding these products.
 
Good to know Stan

I should have mentioned I fuel up mostly at Haverstraw and they've been pumping Velvtech
gas and diesel since at least 2003. The QSB's in my '04 390DA had 570hrs between the previous owner (marina friend) and I and never had a problem. But after reading this thread, it was worth asking, and I'll ask Ken from Cummins when he comes down.

Rich
 
My tanks are virgin, have never used any additives. Have seen alot of commercials for Startron, does any one have any experience with it. Should I be using an additive like Diesel Kleen or Startron, or should I stay virgin.
 
Rich/stan,
When Cummins did my orientation they said DO NOT add any additives. ( the QSC were designed for ULSD ) I have not added any boosters but after I got bad fuel 2 years ago i started using starton . ( i had water and dirt ) my racors bowls have been clean ever since...


Rob
 
Here is a .pdf file that is a study of just what we are talking about --- additives to enhance lubricity of ULSD.

I found this on Google and don't have any opinion on the authenticity - other than to reference the report that says they used an "independent testing laboratory" to do the work. It also appears as though the study was paid for by all but two of the manufacturers.

What I found interesting was that some of the additives actually decreased lubricity. :huh:

I found this while looking for information on ValvTect diesel; which is what I load up with on a regular basis. I'm wondering if the lubricity additives are already included when you buy ValvTect diesel...although it appears as though their additive scored rather poorly in the tests.
 
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