Contemplating New 38 DA / 36 SB

S

Skippy

New Member
Aug 13, 2008
66
Connecticut
Boat Info
280 DA
Engines
T - 4.3 Alphas
when I purchased Lady Bugs 3 seasons ago as our first boat I received tons of great advice so I'm counting on you folks now as I potentially step up big time (at least for me).

I'm contemplating the 38 DA and the 36 SB at the Norwalk Boat Show this year... and The Admiral has approved the expenditure (within reason). My question is that my local MM dealer seems to order all these boats for their inventory with gas engines and without bow thrusters...
I want diesel and thrusters so I will have to custom order, or step up to the 40DA which is out of range financially unless they dump it on me. Why wouldn't these be standard issue on boats of this size? Is it that consensus is that they aren't needed?

Also, since there are a range of diesel manufacturer options any views on which to go for (Cummins / CAT / Yanmars etc) much appreciated...
 
The addition of diesel engines adds $50-70,000 to the price of the boats. Dealers believe that will scare off too many potential customers, so they bring them in with gas. The larger boats need diesels, so that's what they have on the floor. Sea Ray does offer 40ish foot boats with gas engines, but those are mostly bought by people where diesel fuel is hard to get.

No more Cat or Volvo option. Brunswick squelched that. You can only get Cummins. Some boats are available with Yanmar, but only those where the Cummins engines won't fit. Some are also available with MAN, but that's only where Cummins does not make one that large.

Best regards,
Frank
 
I know the local Sea Ray dealer here told me last year they only order the 36 DB with diesels because of range issues with the gas version. With 300 gallon tanks and a boat that probably will only get .5-.6 mpg, you're looking at really a little over 100 mile useful range with gas leaving some fuel in the tank for safety (and sloshing around). I did see an article in Power and MotorYacht where the gas boat gets like .7 mpg if cruising at 20 knots (yuk).
 
Cost is the reason, as the other guys said. Just look at the "build my boat" on searay.com and look at the cost of those options and you will see that they add roughtly 1/3 more $ to the retail price.

I am a little worried about your choices. The 38 is the old 36, which is a good boat, but those sold with Yanmars have proven to be a problem for our dealer......so much so that he won't order Yanmars unless the buyer forces him to. We had a long discussiion here about this a year ago, so you might search for the thread, but generally, the structure underneath and supporting the engines is to light and will not adequately support the Yanmars which are light weight high rpm diesels. Perhaps Sea Ray fixed this on the move to 38'.......but I wouldn't want to be the guinnea pig.

And, perhaps this is a local market situation, but the smaller sedan bridges have never worked out for Sea Ray. There is too much weight in too short a package and that makes for a boat that needs a ton of power to keep it up on the water which leads to poor handling in sea conditions, high fuel burn numbers and low range. Our dealer has never stocked the 36DB and won't even order one.

If I were you I would spend the money on a lightly used 40DA or 420DA and there are some real values on 400-420DB's out there now. All are a lot more boat for the money than you are considering and you have more engine choices.
 
Great advice everyone thank you - There are about 5 or 6 lightly used 40DA's for sale on the boards right now with Cummins engines and thrusters between Boston and NJ and I'm going to see 4 of them on Monday...I think the 42DA might be too expensive and too much boat for me...

I'll report back once I get a look at them.

Just don't tell Lady Bugs I'm cheating on her!...:grin:
 
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Only you can decide the financial part of this, but I can tell you that handling wise, moving from a 280DA to a 42 isn't too much of a move. The boat may intimidate you for a while, but it is something you learn very quickly.

You really don't need a bow thruster with twin diesels.........a 40-42Da moves enough water compared to a twin outdrive you will think you've gone to heaven.

You are doing the right thing............looking is free, besides, I have yet to look at a boat and not see something to get ideas from.
 
Skippy said:
when I purchased Lady Bugs 3 seasons ago as our first boat I received tons of great advice so I'm counting on you folks now as I potentially step up big time (at least for me).

I'm contemplating the 38 DA and the 36 SB at the Norwalk Boat Show this year... and The Admiral has approved the expenditure (within reason). My question is that my local MM dealer seems to order all these boats for their inventory with gas engines and without bow thrusters...
I want diesel and thrusters so I will have to custom order, or step up to the 40DA which is out of range financially unless they dump it on me. Why wouldn't these be standard issue on boats of this size? Is it that consensus is that they aren't needed?

Also, since there are a range of diesel manufacturer options any views on which to go for (Cummins / CAT / Yanmars etc) much appreciated...
Click to expand...



I believe if you go for the sedan bridge you would be well served with the diesels. That is alot of weight in a small " footprint". It also is a tall boat in relation to its length and beam. Sundancer class boats do pretty good with gas engines because they dont suffer from too much "sail effect" and the center of gravity is much lower to the water. The added torque of the diesels will give you much more command of the boat while docking. If you can get bow thrusters on a boat, I believe it is good insurance. One day you may be down one engine and that thruster could save you while trying to dock in wind or current. Besides thrusters only add about $6000 to $8000 to the purchase price.

I believe you would be happy with the 38 sundancer with the gas engines. I spent about an hour behind the wheel on one equipped with the 370 hp gas engines and it was very well balanced with regard to power and torque in my opinion. If you go with diesels you will be stuck with the cummins/mercruiser, in my experience they are as reliable as any other.
 
Thanks for the good advice so far everyone - I spent last week poking around the lightly used 40DA market in New England & Mid Atlantic - one more to see tomorrow but very mixed reports so far - some really good, knowledgeable folks, and some folks who for one reason or another are clearly from a parallel universe where folks don't care about a well kept boat at a fair price.

As I mentioned before, I am also considering a new 38DA (the 36SB is a non starter w the Admiral) - It's available w Yanmars and V-Drives at a reasonable price, but Cummins and Zeus drives puts it out of reach financially. Frank you mentioned the Yanmars are "high RPM diesels" isn't the whole point w diesels that they are low rpm engines with no spark...made to run long and hard? So forgive my inexperience but am I really buying a gas engine in disguise w the Yanmars?

I couldn't find the thread that Frank mentioned earlier covering this but any thoughts generally on a 38DA w Yanmars and a lightly used 40DA ( < 100 hrs) w Cummins in good condition for the same price? Is it a slam dunk either way?
 
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Could not disagree more about the thrusters. If you have a choice, they are without question the most useful accessory on my boat. Dont leave the dock without it. As an added bonus the two batteries act as backups if you have a starting problem. Gas vs. Diesels, i wont even get into. The original cost of 50-75k more initialy will NEVER be offset with gas vs. diesel prices. Besides here in SoCal in Marina Del rey, Disesel is 75. cents a gallon more and will continue to be more expensive as the world goes in that direction. Good used boats are bargains!
 
I think I finally found the thread Frank mentioned previously but I think that was about the 340DA...anyone from that thread care to weigh in on their suitability for a new 38DA? Views seemed ambiguous on that thread but I'm hoping the extra weight gets me over the line...besides, I might still buy a used 40DA so it may not matter in the end.
 
The yanmar issue was with the 340 and possibly the 360. Our resident Peter from overseas has a 360 with yanmars so may want to pm him for info on the yanmars. I know of people that have the yanmars in non sea rays and love them.

If it were me, I would definitley go for the 40DA or a 390DA, same boat. Deisels of course...I could care less about the thruster after seeing how easy it is with 8.1's in my 340. I actually would buy a 40/390 over a 420/44 even if money were no issue. IMO, the 40 is the best model between the 340 and 48. SB
 
Hey "Skippy" I too am going to the Norwalk Boat Show. Since we are probably in the same area, keep me in mind if you know of someone looking to upgrade to a 2003 300 Dancer. The boat is inexcellent condition. I would like to get in to a 36 or 38 DA. I am particular about the age of the boat (not older than 2001), so please keep me in mind. MM in Norwalk has 2000 38 for $140,000. It is a very clean boat, but I'm not sure if I'm getting the best bang for the buck. I bought my 2003 from them 2 years ago for $90,000, and now they are offering me $69,000 for a trade in.....great huh? Beside, this will be my third boat with them. I appreciate any input from anyone who may read this.
Thanks, Mark
 
Honestly those depreciation numbers seem reasonable to me given the state of the economy, gas prices etc. Maybe I'm stating the obvious but trading with a dealer is usually going to be a bit worse than going through a private sale but has the benefit that a reputable dealer will stand by the boats they sell...
I think the boat you mentioned is the one sitting outside the MM showroom still in Norwalk- without poking around it it seems like a reasonable deal to me at the asking price but I'm sure there is a bit of room - I'm looking for newer, diesels and thrusters so I'm expecting to pay a lot more but are no 38DA's in the area that I can find with those characteristics so I'm looking at used 40's and there seem to be a few of those. I'll keep it in mind if I hear of someone looking for a used 30DA. Good Luck!
 
I did not search for the thread in question, but the one with the information you need contains an exchange between me and Never Monday, who is a Yanmar dealer in the Atlanta area. While the subject of the thread may be the advisability of diesels in a 340DA, the problems that occurred at our dealership that makes them not order boats with Yanmar engines occurred with 360DA's which are essentially the same hull as the 360.

Just so I'm clear, I don't have anything again Yanmars (I own 2 of them in other applications); they are great engines. The engines Sea Ray uses are light weight, high rpm engines and the issue is that the Sea Ray structure that supports the engine is too light and cannot sustain the vibration and torque forces of the Yanmars. Our dealer's problem with Yanmar has been that Yanmar has refused all warranty coverage and declined to assist with determining the cause or the right way to fix the customer's boats. In 3 cases, Sea Ray and the dealer had to replace major engine castings and add an aluminum frame under the engine.....in one case, both engine mounts broke and the engine fell into the bilge and bent a shaft, damaged a strut and cutlass bearing and totalled a shaft seal.

They have also sold 2 34' Whalers with the Yanmar engine package. Both owners have has significant engine problems with smoke, hard starting and poor performance that they had to fix since Yanmar's position was that they don't make mistakes and their engines are perfect.

My own Yanmars (not in boats) are trouble free and bullet proof, but if there is a Sea Ray dealer that will not order these engines in a boat, that tells me something.

The 40DA is a lot more boat........the 420DA is even more still. If this were me, I'd search out the very best low time 420 with Cummins mechanical 6CTS's I could find. You will have years of efficient and trouble-free boating.
 
fwebster said:
I did not search for the thread in question, but the one with the information you need contains an exchange between me and Never Monday, who is a Yanmar dealer in the Atlanta area. While the subject of the thread may be the advisability of diesels in a 340DA, the problems that occurred at our dealership that makes them not order boats with Yanmar engines occurred with 360DA's which are essentially the same hull as the 360.

Just so I'm clear, I don't have anything again Yanmars (I own 2 of them in other applications); they are great engines. The engines Sea Ray uses are light weight, high rpm engines and the issue is that the Sea Ray structure that supports the engine is too light and cannot sustain the vibration and torque forces of the Yanmars. Our dealer's problem with Yanmar has been that Yanmar has refused all warranty coverage and declined to assist with determining the cause or the right way to fix the customer's boats. In 3 cases, Sea Ray and the dealer had to replace major engine castings and add an aluminum frame under the engine.....in one case, both engine mounts broke and the engine fell into the bilge and bent a shaft, damaged a strut and cutlass bearing and totalled a shaft seal.

They have also sold 2 34' Whalers with the Yanmar engine package. Both owners have has significant engine problems with smoke, hard starting and poor performance that they had to fix since Yanmar's position was that they don't make mistakes and their engines are perfect.

My own Yanmars (not in boats) are trouble free and bullet proof, but if there is a Sea Ray dealer that will not order these engines in a boat, that tells me something.

The 40DA is a lot more boat........the 420DA is even more still. If this were me, I'd search out the very best low time 420 with Cummins mechanical 6CTS's I could find. You will have years of efficient and trouble-free boating.
Click to expand...

Frank,

If Yanmar engines excessively shake, this would likely indicate an unbalanced condition. If indeed this was the case, the engine would likely suffer from premature failure. Yanmar diesels run just as long as any other diesel and therefore one would conclude the engine mounting/support is subpar.

Doug
 
douglee25 said:
Frank,

If Yanmar engines excessively shake, this would likely indicate an unbalanced condition. If indeed this was the case, the engine would likely suffer from premature failure. Yanmar diesels run just as long as any other diesel and therefore one would conclude the engine mounting/support is subpar.

Doug
Click to expand...

Doug, if you read Franks post he states that "the issue is that the Sea Ray structure that supports the engine is too light and cannot sustain the vibration and torque forces of the Yanmars."

There has been a 290AJ with Yanmars on boat trader for several months with very low hours and one of the engines had "major work done to it." Not saying that this is what Frank is talking about but it seems like it all adds up.

Everything that I've heard about Yanmar engines is great, it seems in this case Sea Ray needs to look at the stringer systems they are using.
 
Hello Skippy,

Yes I own a 360DA with Yanmars.
I bought my boat 3 years ago, with 160 hours on it.
This holiday, I passed the 500 hours....
Al I can say, that my experience with these engines are fantastic and problem free.
My experience is that they are very quiet, economic, power full, balanced and smoke free engines.

Here a photo, you can also see the stringers that support the engines.

DSC01941-1.jpg


Yes they are high(er) rpm engines (4200 rpm max), but what do you think how many rpm's modern car diesel engines are running...
You have 300hp Audi or Mercedes engines that run more than 6000 rpm nowadays.
I don't think that high rpm should be a issue.
These engines are originally based on the Toyota Landcruiser engines.
They are proved bulletproof engines, in this very popular 4 X 4.
The thing that I don't understand, is that if they give problems why Sea ray still sell these engines in a 2008 380DA...
I don't say that some dealers in the USA had problems, but witch engine brand has no story's.
Cat's with soft blocks, Cummins that shake their own bolts off etc.
Also I can say that Yanmar and Volvo are the most popular engines that are sold in Europe for marine purpose.
These 315HP engines are sold in 20ft boats also.

The new 380DA, has the same sizes as my 360DA.
It is the same structure, and don't think Sea ray would ignore massive problem's.
Don't say that other opinions or story's aren't real, but just want to say my experience.
Think that it also has something to do that Yanmar isn't as popular as Cummins or Cat in the USA......
Sorry for my grammatic.

Regards Peter.
 
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Aarrhh & Aarrhh said:
Doug, if you read Franks post he states that "the issue is that the Sea Ray structure that supports the engine is too light and cannot sustain the vibration and torque forces of the Yanmars."

There has been a 290AJ with Yanmars on boat trader for several months with very low hours and one of the engines had "major work done to it." Not saying that this is what Frank is talking about but it seems like it all adds up.

Everything that I've heard about Yanmar engines is great, it seems in this case Sea Ray needs to look at the stringer systems they are using.
Click to expand...

I posted my response based on the one above and the one located here...

http://clubsearay.com/forum/showpost.php?p=57487&postcount=4

If I misinterpreted something I apologize. Otherwise I stand by my response.

Doug
 
As you can see on these pic's, the structure from a 340 is different than on the 360DA.

1783845_22.jpg

DSC01941-1.jpg
 
All diesels shake and vibrate when compared to a properly running gas engine, yet the yanmars purr like a kitten compared to cummins. He means the additional vibration of the deisels is what the stringers can't handle. Sounds like SR did not beef them up enough for yanmar apps.

FWIW, I have been on a few yanmar powered boats and was impressed with them, one of which was a 340DA. When I started looking for a 340, I looked for a yanmar powered one even after reading the issues here but they are too few and far between in the used market. SB
 
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