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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Richie89, Aug 7, 2019.
Manifold. 4 years in salt? Isn't that right around replacement time?
Exhaust elbows are considered maintenance parts, but that isn't the question here.
Richie paid retail money for an annual service at a SR dealer. The technician's negligence in missing an exhaust elbow spraying water all over the engine/generator is the real question. How did he even start and run the generator to check for oil leaks without getting wet? Having a competent experienced technician service and check things is thew reason the owner chose to hire MM for the service in the first place.
The service was done 3 months prior and I'm sure it wasn't spraying then.
Personally I look over all my equipment before every outing.
My point the service provider should have been recommending at least a look, if not replacement. Sounds like the where on the edge and finally let go.
Assuming this is a Cummins Onan 11MDKBN genset. In the owner's Maintenance and Parts manual the pre-start checks are very specific (specifically to this issue item 2) to be performed before each use. Based upon information provided, it appears not to be a dealer issue.
To rebut not being a dealer issue, the Sunpower tech told me that with this amount of rust, this was not a new problem and 3 months before was easily there.
as Frank mentioned, I paid an absolute premium for service from the dealer for only one reason. i paid that because i did not want issues, and i wanted the best service i could find. there are plenty of contractors around my marina who most people use for service. i took back to dealer and just paid $11K, actually right at $12k, to avoid this exact situation.
Like Ritchie, when my boat is in south florida im an absetee owner. You guys that are faulting him need to understand, we fly in, use our boats and fly home. We have little time for maintenence, etc. It often makes sense to "transfer the risk" by paying "extra" for service to maximize enjoyment on the boat. I know a lot of people up north that maintain their own boats and are capable of winterizing them, but opt to let the marina do it so they have "insurance" if somthing goes wrong.......same basic concept here.
I hope this goes your way Richie - my boat should be back down soon (if it doesnt sell). We would love to do a keys or bimini trip with you guys - Mike
Parts can fail quickly and without warning that's why "Before the first start of the day" you check your mechanical shit. Service guy isn't going to do that. Ever see a pilot go over his preflight check list, walks around looks under the hood, even checks his oil.
I understand, and concur the service should have noted such a significant issue; however that does not relieve the owner's responsibility for due diligence as that would have found the issue long before it became so extensive.
ttmott, that depends on the level of service you are getting. I drive a Ford pickup, and I expect basic service. My wife drives a Maserati, and I expect a whole lot more when I take her car in. Her last car dealer would take women to a spa while cars were getting serviced. When I bought this boat, I was very clear to my salesman and to the service dept what I was expecting from this purchase. I wanted carefree boating, and I was willing to pay for it. They rolled out the red carpet, and sold me on what I am now expecting. I used this boat one time between the service and the breakdown. After getting the boat back, I went across to the bahamas and back, and parked it. No way this happened in one trip, when it was just in service. And there is no reason I should have had to check behind their work the first time i used the boat after servicing. Less quality service would demand it, but that isn't what i paid for. The professional tech said the evidence is clear that this issue had been there a while.
#2 concluded in the last sentence, “...service as necessary.” Isn’t that what the OP paid $12k for?
I would want Marine Max to explain to me why the tech that changed the oil and filter didn't see the leak when he started the generator to check for oil leaks since he just changed the filter. If the elbow was so bad that it sprayed seawater all over the engine and back end, enough to total the generator, I would think he would have gotten his shoes and pants wet.............unless the generator has a sound shield and the tech replaced all the covers before checking his work, and if he did, how could he have seen an oil leak?
Anyway I look at this, I think Marine Max should bear some of the responsibility for not alerting t he owner to the rusty drip pan, the salt deposits everywhere and the water source turning on the bilge pump.....particularly since the annual service bill was almost $12,000. For that cost, I would expect more than an oil change and a new oil filter.
In reading through this thread from the beginning, the failure occurred 3 months after the service. Now I totally agree the 11 grand is off the charts for an annual checkup and service (would be interesting to see the breakdown), but do have one question - was this the first time the genny was started after the service? Brother in law with 320 had a manifold go 2 weeks ago, and resulted in similar scenario. No warning sign other than a slight rise in engine temp, then in one short moment, coolant all over the engine compartment.
I think you are missing my point -
The service contract should have picked up the issue and as they didn't observe the problems they hold some culpability. "Service" is periodic and when the service intervals are due; that is probably what you are paying for.
The owner responsibility before every time the generator is started is very clear in the owner's manual. If these simple inspections were performed before each generator startup and every 8 hours of operation the issue would have been detected and the carnage you are faced with avoided.
Now - unless you had in your service contract for them to travel to the Bahamas (for example) before every generator startup then the above holds.
Not as I see it - #2 as you noticed is IF the owner's inspection detected an issue then "service as necessary". This is the owners manual and the owners responsibility. If Ritchie in his contract delineated the service center to do these inspections then that is a different story but I would doubt it.
I agree with a lot of the posts on this thread.
I agree with @fwebster point about the dealer doing the service should have noticed the problem, they have some fault here and should financially participate in restoration.
@ttmott point about the owner has responsibility of regular due diligence I also agree with.
Sounds like Richie is on a good path, getting an independent opinion to provide data for discussions with the service provider.
@Richie89 I think your desired use of the boat is very similar to mine. I have been a remote owner of a saltwater boat for a few years. Some time at Williams Island in Aventura (totally understand your comment about service providers in Miami area) and now on the west coast of FL.
You can take a well serviced, well maintained car and park it in a garage, come back 2-3 months later and the car is more or less in the same condition you left it. Other than the battery maybe getting low, your coming back to what you left.
My opinion, you cannot do the same thing with a boat sitting in an environment as caustic and harsh as salt water. Things that were fine when you left the boat, will not be same when you return.
We flew into Florida last week to spend a few days. When we arrive, I just want to get on the boat and go. I do not want to spend time digging around, checking out everything, and trying to diagnose everything. Daily checks when cruising yes, especially on long trips are a requirement, but generally I am there to enjoy the boat, not work on it.
My approach is two fold. Quality service providers who understand how I want the boat serviced and maintained. If something fails on the port engine, we typically replace the same part on the Starboard engine, etc. But having quality service is not enough. You have to have in place the type of continuous due diligence that I think @ttmott is referring to.
I have a person who works year around for me who watches over the boat. He is semi retired from the boating industry. Life time of working in boat yards, being a delivery captain, and maintaining boats. Had the same service for the boat that was on the east coast of FL. Last summer we kept the boat in the Chesapeake, I had the same boat check arrangement with someone in Maryland
We sat down and defined what we call "boat checks". I decided I wanted this weekly.
He is on the boat and spends time going through every system. This goes way beyond just checking lines and strainers. For example Fires up the mains, lets them warm up, puts them in gear each direction to circulate fluids in the transmissions. Fires up the Genset, warms it up, then puts it under load for a half hour or so (running AC to make sure it is working). After everything has run for a bit, he goes through the engine room, looking for problems. With the Gen set he pulls the sound enclosure panels while it is running to check for leaks, belts running true, etc.
Is the freezer freezing, the refrigerators cool, the toilets flushing.
Not trying to list all the activities - just a sampling.
Week or two ago he called with two issues. 2 of the three bilge blower fans were not working. He went and got the parts and fixed those. Also Stern thruster wasn't working (it seems to go through solenoids). I called my service guy and arranged for him to go to the boat to diagnose and get the parts on order.
Stern thruster is not that big of a deal to me, so we went on our trip without it. But will be fixed before our next trip.
I guess the point is I knew with confidence what was going on with the boat when I got there.
I still do daily checks while cruising, but my checks only have to get detailed when it is a long trip.
@Richie89 in the future you might want to consider something like this. I think it would protect your investment and provide the style of boating you are looking for.
This point gets forgotten a lot of times with remote ownership. When the boat is nearby, it is easy to drop by an evening during the week or a Saturday morning and knock out a lot of due diligence. When the owner is remote it is just not possible for the owner to have the same level of interaction with the systems on the boat. Either the owner spends a lot of time checking out things when they arrive - or things don't get checked out regularly.
Our situation, I pay a fixed amount each month for what we call the boat checks. If additional time on the boat is required, then that is a hourly charge. I pay service providers directly.
South Florida there are a lot of captains who will maintain a boat and they run all the service providers through their account. Not a fan of this approach, too much opportunity for bad situation.
Anyway just my thoughts. Kind of moved the topic away from the base issue that @Richie89 posted, maybe should be a separate thread just focused on remote ownership.
maybe should be a separate thread just focused on remote ownership.[/QUOTE]
yes - this would be a great thread
I negotiate software IP contracts and I can tell you that manual serves as a tool to mitigate risk for the manufacturer and shift it onto the owner. IMO the owner had an implied and as he wrote earlier, a stated expectation ( read agreement ) with the servicing of his boat. I'll bet you a beer the resolution will be a shared mutual loss. Shame, but it is Myami.
Oh, I hope it will be shared.... But you must agree that there is "service" then there is "operation"; there are pre-operational inspections that the captain needs to do before operating any boat - like verify the plug is in the transom even though you just had the outboard serviced and water tested......
Let's make it a six pack and we'll share it!
Terrible situation. I would be fit to be tied and reaching out to either my insurance company or the shop’s carrier if the service department wasn’t prepared to pitch in substantially on this.
My take away from all of this is that the guy who did the service somehow missed an imminent problem. Lesson learned for me is that no matter how much I pay someone, or who does the work, nobody is going to be as observant about things as I am.
Probably best to always spend a few minutes in the bilge looking around at things after having someone work on the boat.